Complaints about slow play...

[Golferpaul]

On 9/19/2022 at 4:03 PM, pingfool said:

Unfortunately too often you have groups with different goals for the day - especially at publics. Show me a private club with a slow play problem and I’ll bet you have a weak pro shop or board of directors, or both. 

 

Every course with a pace of play problem has management issues.  Pace of play issues can be solved at any course if management wants to address them.

[MountainKing]

On 9/24/2022 at 9:31 AM, Golferpaul said:

Every course with a pace of play problem has management issues.  Pace of play issues can be solved at any course if management wants to address them.

 

I would like to see courses go back to how things were in the 90's, especially now that it seems like they all have little issues filling the tee sheets.  If you fall behind you get a warning, if you don't catch up you get a ride up to where you should be, if you fall behind again you get asked to leave.    It is a management issue, but it's also on us to make sure we're doing our part. 

[larrybud]

On 9/19/2022 at 8:45 PM, uitar9 said:

We finished the 18. I got back to the car, packed up and was driving home when I checked the clock in the car. 3 hours 50 minutes. 

 

Yet it felt like we were waiting for hours.

 

 

That's why absolute times aren't the proper way to measure "pace". But maybe you should try walking so the "pace" is the same.

 

[uitar9]

25 minutes ago, larrybud said:

That's why absolute times aren't the proper way to measure "pace". But maybe you should try walking so the "pace" is the same.

 

Just an FYI-I walk 99% of the time. I am never the slo person in a group. and that includes eyeballing others lost balls. I was paired with a couple in a cart on Saturday. I was often waiting for them and waiting for walking two some in front of us. It felt slo. We still finished a 9 hole par 36 in an hour 50 min. I still feel pace of play is often a perception. Not a reality

[betarhoalphadelta]

5 hours ago, uitar9 said:

Just an FYI-I walk 99% of the time. I am never the slo person in a group. and that includes eyeballing others lost balls. I was paired with a couple in a cart on Saturday. I was often waiting for them and waiting for walking two some in front of us. It felt slo. We still finished a 9 hole par 36 in an hour 50 min. I still feel pace of play is often a perception. Not a reality

 

That's sometimes true. I play most often at a par-60 course (3670 yards) and usual pace of play on a weekend morning is maybe 3:45. 

 

I was out one morning and my foursome walks, and there were some [much] older gentlemen ahead of us in carts. They were short-knockers and not particularly quick players. We actually ended up coming up on them on a few tee boxes while they were still teeing off and they made comments about us "young people walking too fast" lol. But they were keeping up with the group in front of them, so it wasn't an issue for anyone. 

 

The whole round it felt like everything was slow. We finished and I realized we'd made it around in 3:30. 

 

That said... IMHO slow play is *more* often slow play, not a perception. 

[sui generis]

Slow play threads are a "johnson contest."

 

Four of us, all over 80 years old, walk and carry. We play a hilly course from the tips in 3:15. No gimmies. Okay, kids, beat that! 😉

Edited October 3, 2022 by sui generis

[North Butte]

For me it's slow play if I deliberately keep myself from walking as fast as I can and yet I still have to stand and wait before hitting most or all shots. So it's definitely context dependent.

 

I played a course last year up in the mountains that was a TOUGH walk. it took four hours but I don't think I had to stop and wait more than half a dozen times during the entire round. It was just that hilly and spread out.

 

But there's a short, flat course I've played on vacation a few times where my natural pace, playing solo with nobody in front, is about 2-1/2 hours. Just over 5,500 yards and dead flat with very few walks from greens to the next tee. Taking 3-1/2 hours to play there feels like 4-1/2 because there so little time actually needed to play golf there. 

[Warrior42111]

14 hours ago, sui generis said:

Slow play threads are a "johnson contest."

 

 

Are we talking fairway length or width?

 

Deciding to enter or not enter this contest. 😉

[rd1959]

On 10/4/2022 at 9:26 AM, Warrior42111 said:

Are we talking fairway length or width?

 

Deciding to enter or not enter this contest. 😉

That question might be better answered by someone from the LPGA 😁

[Warrior42111]

9 hours ago, rd1959 said:

That question might be better answered by someone from the LPGA 😁

it's 2022 all tours are an option 😉

[DLiver]

To me, slow play isn't about the time it takes to play a round, it is about how much waiting you have to do. I've played 4:15 rounds that seemed brisk, and 3:45 rounds that seemed kind of pokey, all because of the amount of waiting around involved.

 

It's the waiting that sucks the fun out of the game.

[nvr3putt]

Just now, DLiver said:

To me, slow play isn't about the time it takes to play a round, it is about how much waiting you have to do. I've played 4:15 rounds that seemed brisk, and 3:45 rounds that seemed kind of pokey, all because of the amount of waiting around involved.

 

It's the waiting that sucks the fun out of the game.

Sometimes delays are due to course design. Some par 3s are just awful.

[Double Mocha Man]

34 minutes ago, DLiver said:

To me, slow play isn't about the time it takes to play a round, it is about how much waiting you have to do. I've played 4:15 rounds that seemed brisk, and 3:45 rounds that seemed kind of pokey, all because of the amount of waiting around involved.

 

It's the waiting that sucks the fun out of the game.

 

As a threesome we played behind a twosome the other day.  They were quick enough getting to the green but once on the green we had ourselves a couple of Bryson DeChambeaus.

 

There was never a wait on the tee but always a wait to hit into the green.  A real yo-yo effect. Or military effect... hurry up and wait.

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Double Mocha Man

[golfortennis]

7 hours ago, DLiver said:

To me, slow play isn't about the time it takes to play a round, it is about how much waiting you have to do. I've played 4:15 rounds that seemed brisk, and 3:45 rounds that seemed kind of pokey, all because of the amount of waiting around involved.

 

It's the waiting that sucks the fun out of the game.

 

Agreed, and this is why I can never get behind the "who wouldn't want to spend more time on a golf course" argument for slow play.  5 hours is a lot of standing around.  That is no fun.  It's not super fun to stand around and finish in 4 hours, but at least it's somewhat moving.  I've had both of your scenarios this past month or so at our course.  It is amazing how one can seem like a slow round...and then you get in within time. 

[Golferpaul]

On 10/6/2022 at 8:58 AM, nvr3putt said:

Sometimes delays are due to course design. Some par 3s are just awful.

Correct, and there have been studies that identify course setup problems.  Looking for golf balls is one of the biggest contributors to slow play and yet many courses refuse to mow their rough down to reasonable heights.  Another is fast greens where lots of golfers are three-putting.  This article is quite clear;

 

"If there was one common finding among the independent projects, it's that the overriding factor is course management."

 

The real cause of slow play isn't what you think | This is the Loop | Golf Digest

[dvq9654]

Going to post a positive happening for once. 

 

Was playing last weekend, and we were behind a group of four. They seemed to be relatively new to the game. The course we were playing is never fast due to its design, and a 4.5 hour round feels like an OK pace. We were well behind this pace through ~6 holes, and the group in front of us was ~1.75 holes behind the group in front of them. Wasn't looking pretty...

 

Given the course design, I was able to ask the group in front while they were on the tee of 7 and we were walking to 6 green if they could speed it up given they were falling behind. I was expecting a confrontation because it turns that way more often than it should, but it was perfectly cordial. From that point on, the group in front of us was flying. They caught up to the group in front of them and we finished around the 4.5 hour mark, which was impressive considering how slow the first 6 holes were. 

 

I have to give the guys a lot of credit because while I think they were genuinely unaware of how their pace was impacting everyone behind them to start, they completely changed their pace and were super accommodative after asking them to speed up. Cases like this illustrate two things in my opinion:

 

1) Many people are completely unaware how slow they are playing / how they are impacting those around them. A little nudge or edification is all they need 

2) We need more rangers to make people aware / keep people on pace because if I hadn't have said anything, the entire course would have been messed up for hours 

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, dvq9654 said:

Going to post a positive happening for once. 

 

Was playing last weekend, and we were behind a group of four. They seemed to be relatively new to the game. The course we were playing is never fast due to its design, and a 4.5 hour round feels like an OK pace. We were well behind this pace through ~6 holes, and the group in front of us was ~1.75 holes behind the group in front of them. Wasn't looking pretty...

 

Given the course design, I was able to ask the group in front while they were on the tee of 7 and we were walking to 6 green if they could speed it up given they were falling behind. I was expecting a confrontation because it turns that way more often than it should, but it was perfectly cordial. From that point on, the group in front of us was flying. They caught up to the group in front of them and we finished around the 4.5 hour mark, which was impressive considering how slow the first 6 holes were. 

 

I have to give the guys a lot of credit because while I think they were genuinely unaware of how their pace was impacting everyone behind them to start, they completely changed their pace and were super accommodative after asking them to speed up. Cases like this illustrate two things in my opinion:

 

1) Many people are completely unaware how slow they are playing / how they are impacting those around them. A little nudge or edification is all they need 

2) We need more rangers to make people aware / keep people on pace because if I hadn't have said anything, the entire course would have been messed up for hours 

 

With the almost 2 open holes in front of them did you consider asking to play through?

 

This summer had a threesome ahead of my twosome on the first hole.  It took them almost a half-hour to play the par 4.  We were steaming, but one of the guys noticed us and waited on the 2nd tee.  He suggested, without being prompted, that we play through.

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Double Mocha Man

[Golferpaul]

2 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

With the almost 2 open holes in front of them did you consider asking to play through?

Speeding up is always a much better solution than playing through.

[Double Mocha Man]

2 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Speeding up is always a much better solution than playing through.

 

I have rarely seen a group be able to speed up to any serious degree... what made them slow in the first place usually keeps them slow.

 

 

[dvq9654]

28 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

With the almost 2 open holes in front of them did you consider asking to play through?

 

This summer had a threesome ahead of my twosome on the first hole.  It took them almost a half-hour to play the par 4.  We were steaming, but one of the guys noticed us and waited on the 2nd tee.  He suggested, without being prompted, that we play through.

 

 

 

 

I figured asking first couldn't hurt. If they wouldn't have sped up, playing through would have remained an option. They did speed up and were fine the rest of the round, so worked out just fine. 

[deadsolid...shank]

Quite the experience today. We had five so had to split into a two and a three (the ONE rule of public golf, no 5 somes, almost anything else goes, but no fives). The foursome we were behind were obviously new to the game and going to be slow. We knew as a two we would be waiting. Tried to slow up and take our time, still caught them easily on each tee. On the sixth tee you have a view down the hole, can see each shot. One of the guys, looked pretty athletic, but maybe first time out, took a 12.  But here’s the best part……believe it or not, SEVEN  (yes seven) practice swings before each “shot” (unless they were whiffs!, then the hole score might have been 50 or 60, seriously). 
 

Teed off just before 12:10. Walked into the proshop at the turn, 3:05. Just barely under three hours for the nine. 
 

 

[rogolf]

7 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Quite the experience today. We had five so had to split into a two and a three (the ONE rule of public golf, no 5 somes, almost anything else goes, but no fives). The foursome we were behind were obviously new to the game and going to be slow. We knew as a two we would be waiting. Tried to slow up and take our time, still caught them easily on each tee. On the sixth tee you have a view down the hole, can see each shot. One of the guys, looked pretty athletic, but maybe first time out, took a 12.  But here’s the best part……believe it or not, SEVEN  (yes seven) practice swings before each “shot” (unless they were whiffs!, then the hole score might have been 50 or 60, seriously). 
 

Teed off just before 12:10. Walked into the proshop at the turn, 3:05. Just barely under three hours for the nine. 
 

 

Call the pro shop!  It won't get better without doing that (and maybe won't even if you do, but you'll feel that you did something to address the situation).

[deadsolid...shank]

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Call the pro shop!  It won't get better without doing that (and maybe won't even if you do, but you'll feel that you did something to address the situation).

We did. We both work at this course and knew  which ranger was working. He’s pretty ineffective. They did send him out and he drove by them, but I don’t know if actually said anything. He happened to be in the shop when we stopped at the turn, when we told the pro what the actual time for the nine was he told him to go out and tell them to let us through on 10 tee. 
 

It’s maybe the worst case  I’ve seen. 

[bobfoster]

I don't think an objective measure of time (e.g., 3.5 or 4 hours or something) means a lot when it comes to defining average (or slow) play. Courses simply vary too enormously. Saturday I played a really difficult links course that is 6950 or so from the tips (my toughest, most challenging local course). Today a buddy that is just learning wanted to go out - so I needed something that wouldn't frustrate him. Took him to a relatively mild course w/ wide fairways (he would have lost two dozen balls on the links course), that was all of 6200 from the tips. Saying that both should take some random number like 4 hours (or something) to play doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There's courses where 4.5 is fast, and others where 3.5 would be considered slow. Pace of Play is always "graded on a curve". IMO, the correct time to play a course should actually be tied to the course slope (not the rating, the slope - basically the rating tells scratch golfers how hard a course will be for them, the slope tells bogey golfers - us - how hard it will be for them ... almost by definition, the higher the slope, the longer the average round is going to be). 

 

I guess I have to (respectfully) disagree with the OP. My general rule of thumb for measuring PoP is exactly what he says it shouldn't be: The group in front of me. If an entire hole is open, there's a gap. My reasoning is thus: On an average (full) weekend, with average tee times (say) 10 minutes apart, there aren't any gaps at the starting gate. The foursome on the box is teeing off on 1 when the group in front of them has hit their second shots into the green (assuming a par 4). So if you are halfway through the round, and you've got an entire hole open in front of you, it isn't just because the group ahead of you is a threesome of good, fast golfers, it is because everyone in front of you is moving faster than you (i.e., if the foursome two groups ahead was moving at your pace, no gap would emerge - the fast threesome in front of you would just be waiting on each tee box). Bottom line, a gap can't emerge from any one single group moving faster than the average PoP for the course, it can only come from a group moving slower than the average. I wouldn't be complaining about the group behind you wanting to speed you up, as if the course had decent rangers (which many courses do not), a ranger would have had a word with you (well run courses do not like gaps). There's a couple Scottish courses I've played where a ranger probably would have threatened to beat you about the head with a Haggis. (Scottish rangers are Liam Neeson "Taken" level scary.)

 

Even further? If you have a hole open ahead of you, and an irritated group (whether justified or not) behind you, isn't it in your own best interest to let them play through? Wouldn't your own round be way more enjoyable with them ahead of you instead of continually behind you? 

 

And no, I don't think complaints about slow play are overdone. They are so widespread that the USGA currently considers the two biggest problems the modern game faces are the "distance problem", and PoP. Personally (purely anecdotally) having played golf for a long time, the last couple years have gotten horrendous. A lot of new "pandemic golfers" started the game (was one of the few "social distancing" sports you could play outdoors). And lot of folks that were golfers pre-pandemic played more than usual. In fact, statistically, more rounds of golf were played in the US in 2021 (the last full year with stats) than in any year - like, ever (seriously - that's the numbers). Good public courses are jammed. Decent private clubs have year long wait lists. Anyone that plays a lot of golf is definitely experiencing slower rounds, and a heightened sensitivity to slow play. That's just the psychological milieu of the sport of golf right now (again, whether justified or not, it just is). You are framing your round very narrowly. My own perspective? Two weeks ago I hit the 14th tee with a group on the tee, a foursome behind them, and then my foursome. Literally a 20 - 25 minute wait. Actually did my pre-round stretches again (I just turned 65, my body had completely cooled down). Within that context - and I've done this more than once this year - if I were playing this week and saw the group in front of me with an entire hole open in front of them? Yeah, I'd be irritated, even if it was wrong to be. My thought would be "good freaking grief, not again". 

 

So, OP, not denigrating you here, just asking you to consider a different angle of vision.

 

 

 

[Double Mocha Man]

10 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

I don't think an objective measure of time (e.g., 3.5 or 4 hours or something) means a lot when it comes to defining average (or slow) play. Courses simply vary too enormously. Saturday I played a really difficult links course that is 6950 or so from the tips (my toughest, most challenging local course). Today a buddy that is just learning wanted to go out - so I needed something that wouldn't frustrate him. Took him to a relatively mild course w/ wide fairways (he would have lost two dozen balls on the links course), that was all of 6200 from the tips. Saying that both should take some random number like 4 hours (or something) to play doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There's courses where 4.5 is fast, and others where 3.5 would be considered slow. Pace of Play is always "graded on a curve". IMO, the correct time to play a course should actually be tied to the course slope (not the rating, the slope - basically the rating tells scratch golfers how hard a course will be for them, the slope tells bogey golfers - us - how hard it will be for them ... almost by definition, the higher the slope, the longer the average round is going to be). 

 

I guess I have to (respectfully) disagree with the OP. My general rule of thumb for measuring PoP is exactly what he says it shouldn't be: The group in front of me. If an entire hole is open, there's a gap. My reasoning is thus: On an average (full) weekend, with average tee times (say) 10 minutes apart, there aren't any gaps at the starting gate. The foursome on the box is teeing off on 1 when the group in front of them has hit their second shots into the green (assuming a par 4). So if you are halfway through the round, and you've got an entire hole open in front of you, it isn't just because the group ahead of you is a threesome of good, fast golfers, it is because everyone in front of you is moving faster than you (i.e., if the foursome two groups ahead was moving at your pace, no gap would emerge - the fast threesome in front of you would just be waiting on each tee box). Bottom line, a gap can't emerge from any one single group moving faster than the average PoP for the course, it can only come from a group moving slower than the average. I wouldn't be complaining about the group behind you wanting to speed you up, as if the course had decent rangers (which many courses do not), a ranger would have had a word with you (well run courses do not like gaps). There's a couple Scottish courses I've played where a ranger probably would have threatened to beat you about the head with a Haggis. (Scottish rangers are Liam Neeson "Taken" level scary.)

 

Even further? If you have a hole open ahead of you, and an irritated group (whether justified or not) behind you, isn't it in your own best interest to let them play through? Wouldn't your own round be way more enjoyable with them ahead of you instead of continually behind you? 

 

And no, I don't think complaints about slow play are overdone. They are so widespread that the USGA currently considers the two biggest problems the modern game faces are the "distance problem", and PoP. Personally (purely anecdotally) having played golf for a long time, the last couple years have gotten horrendous. A lot of new "pandemic golfers" started the game (was one of the few "social distancing" sports you could play outdoors). And lot of folks that were golfers pre-pandemic played more than usual. In fact, statistically, more rounds of golf were played in the US in 2021 (the last full year with stats) than in any year - like, ever (seriously - that's the numbers). Good public courses are jammed. Decent private clubs have year long wait lists. Anyone that plays a lot of golf is definitely experiencing slower rounds, and a heightened sensitivity to slow play. That's just the psychological milieu of the sport of golf right now (again, whether justified or not, it just is). You are framing your round very narrowly. My own perspective? Two weeks ago I hit the 14th tee with a group on the tee, a foursome behind them, and then my foursome. Literally a 20 - 25 minute wait. Actually did my pre-round stretches again (I just turned 65, my body had completely cooled down). Within that context - and I've done this more than once this year - if I were playing this week and saw the group in front of me with an entire hole open in front of them? Yeah, I'd be irritated, even if it was wrong to be. My thought would be "good freaking grief, not again". 

 

So, OP, not denigrating you here, just asking you to consider a different angle of vision.

 

 

 

 

Good novel, but so true.  😁  And on that 14th tee you were like a Major League pitcher who had to sit a long time between innings...

[bcjim]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:58 AM, nvr3putt said:

Sometimes delays are due to course design. Some par 3s are just awful.

We have a short par 4 with a variety of tees and mgmt has a bad habit of using the really short tee on weekends. This causes problems as many groups (reasonably) wait for the green to clear.

[Double Mocha Man]

52 minutes ago, bcjim said:

We have a short par 4 with a variety of tees and mgmt has a bad habit of using the really short tee on weekends. This causes problems as many groups (reasonably) wait for the green to clear.

 

A short chat with the Maintenance department may be in order.

[Nard_S]

Public course I play did several things:

 

Moved from 9 min to 10 min start times. Yes, they did raise prices too.

Lots of arbor work to cut back overgrown encroaching trees.

Added GPS packages on carts that included pace of play expectations. It's 4:20 minutes. 

 

They tried the ranger running around telling you that you were "4 minutes behind" but that was a big fail. They now can see (via GPS) what group is doing what and if they are excessive, someone will drive out and say something. It is understood that if a group is on pace, etiquette is NOT to ask to play through or to "speed up". Average Sunday round is 4:30 but I've done as fast as 4 hours there too. What others have said that course design creates back ups is true at this course. too In short, they went with a soft touch approach, and it works quite well.

[Golferpaul]

On 10/7/2022 at 4:37 PM, Double Mocha Man said:

 

I have rarely seen a group be able to speed up to any serious degree... what made them slow in the first place usually keeps them slow.

 

 

They won't speed up on their own.  But the threat of a marshal telling them that they must skip a hole is a powerful motivator.  I've seen it in real life.

[Golferpaul]

On 10/9/2022 at 8:39 PM, bobfoster said:

 Saying that both should take some random number like 4 hours (or something) to play doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There's courses where 4.5 is fast, and others where 3.5 would be considered slow. Pace of Play is always "graded on a curve". IMO, the correct time to play a course should actually be tied to the course slope (not the rating, the slope - basically the rating tells scratch golfers how hard a course will be for them, the slope tells bogey golfers - us - how hard it will be for them ... almost by definition, the higher the slope, the longer the average round is going to be). 

 

Your concept is correct.  But you should be looking at the Bogey Rating, not the Slope.  Slope is not a measure of difficulty; it is the ratio of the Bogey Rating to the Course Rating.