Complaints about slow play...

[Double Mocha Man]

3 hours ago, eugkim said:

One of them was the head of the golf committee - I saw him talking to the others, then he came up to me and said, apologetically,  that we were free to go to the next hole, but they (his playing partners) weren't going to let us through

 

What a pr**k.  How's it hurt him and his group??

[rogolf]

20 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

What a pr**k.  How's it hurt him and his group??

He just failed to meet his responsibilities as head of the golf committee, and set a very poor example for everyone else.

[caniac6]

Just played a miserable round today behind 4 inconsiderate players. We had 3 in carts, and we are fast players. They had 3 walkers and 1 rider. We started on the back, and on # 13, one of their guys told us that they were not going to speed up. We didn’t say anything to them, and they had nobody in front of them. We arrived at several tees before they left the tee area, and they just looked at us, and walked on.  At the turn, they hadn’t finished teeing off when we pulled up- we stayed back an appropriate distance- looked at us, and walked off. We just skipped the hole, and went around. The most frustrating thing was the pro said they were on pace, so he really couldn’t say anything to them. This is a private club, so we knew the guys ahead of us. They just didn’t want to let us through. One more thing: We were probably 2 holes ahead of the group behind us, so the group ahead would of had a nice cushion if they had let us through.

[Double Mocha Man]

51 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

Just played a miserable round today behind 4 inconsiderate players. We had 3 in carts, and we are fast players. They had 3 walkers and 1 rider. We started on the back, and on # 13, one of their guys told us that they were not going to speed up. We didn’t say anything to them, and they had nobody in front of them. We arrived at several tees before they left the tee area, and they just looked at us, and walked on.  At the turn, they hadn’t finished teeing off when we pulled up- we stayed back an appropriate distance- looked at us, and walked off. We just skipped the hole, and went around. The most frustrating thing was the pro said they were on pace, so he really couldn’t say anything to them. This is a private club, so we knew the guys ahead of us. They just didn’t want to let us through. One more thing: We were probably 2 holes ahead of the group behind us, so the group ahead would of had a nice cushion if they had let us through.

 

Group selfishness... otherwise someone in their group should have suggested letting you go through.

[jdl]

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

Just played a miserable round today behind 4 inconsiderate players. We had 3 in carts, and we are fast players. They had 3 walkers and 1 rider. We started on the back, and on # 13, one of their guys told us that they were not going to speed up. We didn’t say anything to them, and they had nobody in front of them. We arrived at several tees before they left the tee area, and they just looked at us, and walked on.  At the turn, they hadn’t finished teeing off when we pulled up- we stayed back an appropriate distance- looked at us, and walked off. We just skipped the hole, and went around. The most frustrating thing was the pro said they were on pace, so he really couldn’t say anything to them. This is a private club, so we knew the guys ahead of us. They just didn’t want to let us through. One more thing: We were probably 2 holes ahead of the group behind us, so the group ahead would of had a nice cushion if they had let us through.

Had something similar a few weeks back, my friend and I were out as a 2some behind a 4some consisting of a mom, her 2 kids and an elderly single dude that was added to their group. Ideally we would have been sent out in front of them, but this course isn't very good with simple things like that. Plus the mom and kids were 45 min late for their tee time so it was kind of weird anyway. Mom and daughter were riding, son was walking. Old guy also riding.

 

During a tortuous front 9, I realized that the very makeup of the group meant they were never going to be "aware" enough to let us go through so while we were approaching the 10th green, I noticed they hadn't finished teeing off yet on the nearby short par 3 11th. So I told my friend, "let's try to finish quick and go through". We did and as we walked over, they were walking off the tee so I just asked, "hey mind if we play through?" I swear I almost think I saw a literal light bulb go off over mom's head and she agreed immediately. 🙂

 

Just wish I had thought of that sooner.

[Double Mocha Man]

5 minutes ago, jdl said:

So I told my friend, "let's try to finish quick and go through". We did and as we walked over, they were walking off the tee so I just asked, "hey mind if we play through?" I swear I almost think I saw a literal light bulb go off over mom's head and she agreed immediately. 

 

A lot of self-absorbed golfers have no "rear view mirror", so they essentially never see you back there.

 

A friend and I played behind a threesome last week.  It took them 30 minutes to play the first hole.  We were steamed and grousing.  But one guy turned around and noticed us.  Refreshingly, on the 2nd tee, they waited for us and asked us to play through.

[Argonne69]

16 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

A lot of self-absorbed golfers have no "rear view mirror", so they essentially never see you back there.

 

A friend and I played behind a threesome last week.  It took them 30 minutes to play the first hole.  We were steamed and grousing.  But one guy turned around and noticed us.  Refreshingly, on the 2nd tee, they waited for us and asked us to play through.

 

I don't know what's worse, the slow group with no rear view mirror, or the group that knows you're waiting on them, but refuses to let you play through even though there are several open holes in front of them.

 

[BIG STU]

On 7/11/2022 at 11:33 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

Exactly. And that is the very reason not to publish any guidelines for the time of a round.

 

Some courses down here tried that for a while but in reality it is a hypocrital thing for 2 reasons. First off most people including tourons and members are not going to pay it any attention anyhow and rangers and staff have been instructed " not to piss off the tourists".

Yesterday I played my usual dew sweeper round out at daylight before the old fart mens groups. Played 9 and came in. Ran into a fellow member who also does not play with that crowd. I agreed to play 9 with him and of course we got behind the old fossils. And trust me they think they are entitled and will do as they please and will not let anyone through. We laughed at them and carried on casual conversation. I was playing my vintage stuff so I hit from the super senior tees with him ( he is 72). He still hits the ball well and we pushed them some. We got a laugh so all was not lost. One of them did complain and one of the owners told him both of us paid for and bought the same membership he had. 

[Pastit]

24 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Some courses down here tried that for a while but in reality it is a hypocrital thing for 2 reasons. First off most people including tourons and members are not going to pay it any attention anyhow and rangers and staff have been instructed " not to piss off the tourists".

Yesterday I played my usual dew sweeper round out at daylight before the old fart mens groups. Played 9 and came in. Ran into a fellow member who also does not play with that crowd. I agreed to play 9 with him and of course we got behind the old fossils. And trust me they think they are entitled and will do as they please and will not let anyone through. We laughed at them and carried on casual conversation. I was playing my vintage stuff so I hit from the super senior tees with him ( he is 72). He still hits the ball well and we pushed them some. We got a laugh so all was not lost. One of them did complain and one of the owners told him both of us paid for and bought the same membership he had. 

You think that’s bad, I had a guy and his daughter cut in front of me from 4 holes behind then started practise-hitting a row of 6 balls to the green of the hole I was waiting on the tee to play. 
 

The guy then pulled out a rangefinder and appeared to be measuring the girl’s precise wedge-distances. 
 

Words were had I can tell you. What is going on with the latest recruits to the game ? 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Pastit

[BIG STU]

5 hours ago, Pastit said:

You think that’s bad, I had a guy and his daughter cut in front of me from 4 holes behind then started practise-hitting a row of 6 balls to the green of the hole I was waiting on the tee to play. 
 

The guy then pulled out a rangefinder and appeared to be measuring the girl’s precise wedge-distances. 
 

Words were had I can tell you. What is going on with the latest recruits to the game ? 

This day in time in both golf and life it is all about me me me. No one else matters. People have no regard for others these days

Yesterday I went to the bank to take care of some business. I have one lady who handles my stuff and I along with another guy were waiting for her. This one guy came in an older guy and got ticked off because we were ahead of him and he started griping. I finally had enough of him and told him then and there in front of everyone he was not the only SOB that had money in that bank. I also told him perhaps if he was in that big of a hurry he could have came sooner. I told him dont fret the rest home would let him back in before 5:00. Several customers including the man who was ahead of me cracked up. I guess I embarassed him because he left in a huff and several customers applauded . I have been doing business with that bank for over 20 years so they all know me. Everyone there calls me Stuey instead of Mister. One of the lady tellers told me tongue in cheek that guy was a royal PITA anyhow week after week. The guy who was ahead of me said if the guy had had some kind of bona fide emergency that he would have let him in front of him if I did not mind and if the guy had asked like a human being. I told him no problem that I was retired now and did not get in a rush plus the A/C was fine and the leather chairs very comfortable

[Mcfly]

Being slow and being dead are pretty much the same thing.  When you’re dead, you don’t know you’re dead, and all the pain is felt by those around you.  Same deal when you’re slow.  

[tatertot]

On 7/27/2022 at 3:18 AM, Pastit said:

You think that’s bad, I had a guy and his daughter cut in front of me from 4 holes behind then started practise-hitting a row of 6 balls to the green of the hole I was waiting on the tee to play. 
 

The guy then pulled out a rangefinder and appeared to be measuring the girl’s precise wedge-distances. 
 

Words were had I can tell you. What is going on with the latest recruits to the game ? 

You were watching the next Annika ... you should have thanked them and asked for an autographed ball.

 

 

At least that's their mindset.

[nsxguy]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:40 PM, Mcfly said:

Being slow and being dead are pretty much the same thing.  When you’re dead, you don’t know you’re dead, and all the pain is felt by those around you.  Same deal when you’re slow.  

 

How do you know ?

 

[4thand11]

On 7/15/2022 at 7:29 PM, Carl Spackler3 said:

This is so completely wrong and selfish I still don’t know if you are serious or trying for big reactions. There is no acceptable time limit for golf. Play to the group in front of you if the group behind you is waiting for you. If that’s 3 hrs you play in 3 hours .

 

This is not correct.  For example, on slow days I've teed off on the first hole when the group in front was already on the 2nd green.  I've also teed off as a foursome with a twosome or even a single in front... obviously those people are likely to gain ground on us.  So measuring pace of play by how far the group ahead of you is, is not always accurate.  Yet it is often the only metric used by groups behind, almost all of the time.

 

I stated that if a group is consistently waiting on you and they are playing at a faster pace than your group, they should be allowed to play through.  I've let groups through many times.  What I am talking about, are the ones who are basically keeping pace with you, not playing any faster, and for the most part not waiting at all... then on one hole perhaps one player struggles, maybe can't locate their ball for a minute etc. and the group behind has to wait in the fairway for maybe a minute, for the group in front to clear the green.  That is NOT an excuse for the group in the fairway to start yelling "pick it up, let's GOOOOO!", when they are playing at essentially the same pace.  Nor does it oblige the group on the green to immediately let them go through.  If they do, they may just as likely be waiting on them on an upcoming hole.

 

People need to relax, as proven by most of the responses here.  If a group is playing at a good pace and you are only waiting for a few seconds to hit once or twice, that is not license to act like an obnoxious jerk.  IMHO.

Edited August 25, 2022 by 4thand11

[Augster]

8 hours ago, 4thand11 said:

 

This is not correct.  For example, on slow days I've teed off on the first hole when the group in front was already on the 2nd green.  I've also teed off as a foursome with a twosome or even a single in front... obviously those people are likely to gain ground on us.  So measuring pace of play by how far the group ahead of you is, is not always accurate.  Yet it is often the only metric used by groups behind, almost all of the time.

 

I stated that if a group is consistently waiting on you and they are playing at a faster pace than your group, they should be allowed to play through.  I've let groups through many times.  What I am talking about, are the ones who are basically keeping pace with you, not playing any faster, and for the most part not waiting at all... then on one hole perhaps one player struggles, maybe can't locate their ball for a minute etc. and the group behind has to wait in the fairway for maybe a minute, for the group in front to clear the green.  That is NOT an excuse for the group in the fairway to start yelling "pick it up, let's GOOOOO!", when they are playing at essentially the same pace.  Nor does it oblige the group on the green to immediately let them go through.  If they do, they may just as likely be waiting on them on an upcoming hole.

 

People need to relax, as proven by most of the responses here.  If a group is playing at a good pace and you are only waiting for a few seconds to hit once or twice, that is not license to act like an obnoxious jerk.  IMHO.

You had me for a little while, until you mentioned not letting the group through when your group encounters trouble. 
 

If the group behind you has to wait at all, your group is not on the same pace. 
 

Here are examples of the same pace. Your group is walking off the green just as the group behind is getting to their balls. Your group has hit your second shots on a hole, and started moving, just as the group behind is getting to the tee box. 
 

Once players in the group behind are standing around with their hands on their hips, they are playing faster than your group. If there is room, let them through. 

[Double Mocha Man]

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

Once players in the group behind are standing around with their hands on their hips, they are playing faster than your group. If there is room, let them through. 

 

I like the Hands-on-Hips theory. I have sore hips from my last round...

[Warrior42111]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:09 PM, Augster said:

If there is room, let them through. 

 

That's the key sentence right there.

 

 If the course is stacked, that's the way the cookie crumbles. 

[DLeightonReid]

I love to play golf, but I hate slow play.  I always try to take note if our group is holding up anyone.  On Saturday, our group was 4 walkers and we let a 3-some and 2 singles play through.  It made our round a little longer, but it is the right thing to do my opinion.  

[gioreeko]

I played yesterday and finished in 3.5 hours, and didn't even feel like we were rushing. I'm 57, and just had meniscus surgery today, so I wasn't walking super fast. My son also walked. We played with 2 70 something seniors who were riding. Just a nice fun, normal round. Played ready golf for the most part, still took our time reading putts, cleaning the balls on the green, etc. When we finished, we all laughed at each other at how fast that round went, and wondered why people take anything over 4 hours. It's maddening to watch slow players.

[Oh Hi Carl]

It's really not that complicated.  

 

If the group behind you is waiting on you but you're waiting on the group ahead, you're fine.  

 

If the group behind you is waiting on you and you're not waiting on the group ahead of you, then you need to let the group behind through.  

[pingfool]

1 hour ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

It's really not that complicated.  

 

If the group behind you is waiting on you but you're waiting on the group ahead, you're fine.  

 

If the group behind you is waiting on you and you're not waiting on the group ahead of you, then you need to let the group behind through.  

OR - adjust your pace and keep up with group in front of. You never should walk to a tee with hole wide open all the way to green. Pick it up

[StudentGolfer4]

52 minutes ago, pingfool said:

OR - adjust your pace and keep up with group in front of. You never should walk to a tee with hole wide open all the way to green. Pick it up

Strongly disagree. If my threesome is playing in 2:45 pace there’s no reason the group behind me has to adjust their pace to keep up. If they’re playing in 3:45 or 4 hour pace and are several holes behind that’s fine. They shouldn’t have to make adjustments just because the group in front of them is playing quickly 

[Oh Hi Carl]

53 minutes ago, pingfool said:

OR - adjust your pace and keep up with group in front of. You never should walk to a tee with hole wide open all the way to green. Pick it up

Yeah, I agree with the first part of your response.  If the group behind has waited on you briefly for one hole and your group played that hole unusually slow (lost ball, OB etc.) then you could make sure to pick up the pace and get back in touch with the group ahead on the next hole.  But if the group behind you is waiting for you on the next hole and you haven't made contact with the group ahead, then you need to let them through.  

[Oh Hi Carl]

2 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Strongly disagree. If my threesome is playing in 2:45 pace there’s no reason the group behind me has to adjust their pace to keep up. If they’re playing in 3:45 or 4 hour pace and are several holes behind that’s fine. They shouldn’t have to make adjustments just because the group in front of them is playing quickly 

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with having a gap in front of you if nobody is waiting on you.  I love days when we have nobody in front of us because that means we can play at a fast pace at least for a few holes (and hopefully the whole way to the clubhouse). 

[pingfool]

13 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Strongly disagree. If my threesome is playing in 2:45 pace there’s no reason the group behind me has to adjust their pace to keep up. If they’re playing in 3:45 or 4 hour pace and are several holes behind that’s fine. They shouldn’t have to make adjustments just because the group in front of them is playing quickly 

your extreme example doesn’t speak to the original topic. Slow play. 
There should not be an open hole on a busy golf course

[nsxguy]

On 9/15/2022 at 10:49 AM, pingfool said:

There should not be an open hole on a busy golf course

 

In a perfect world, maybe.

 

But golf, just like the rest of the world, isn't perfect.

 

There are "kinks in the chain", both natural and not, in multiple places on most every golf course. Can't be helped.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

In a perfect world, maybe.

 

But golf, just like the rest of the world, isn't perfect.

 

There are "kinks in the chain", both natural and not, in multiple places on most every golf course. Can't be helped.

 

First, pingfool wrote "should not be" and I agree with that.

Second, it CAN be helped and there are tools for that. It is called marshalling.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

First, pingfool wrote "should not be" and I agree with that.

Second, it CAN be helped and there are tools for that. It is called marshalling.

 

Fine, I don't agree with him. Or you.

 

Marshaling cannot change the design of the course or how it's played. Or the trouble some golfers can get into, especially when the group in front of them is playing unusually well.

 

1st hole at one of my regulars. Shortish par 5, just long enough so most can't get home in 2 and will lay up to within about 50 yards of the hole in 2 while group 1 is on the green.

 

1st group is putting while 2nd group is driving forward to their balls 50 yards from the green.

 

2nd group waits a very short time while the last guy in group 1 putts out.

 

So from this point you now have the 2nd group playing a very short, 50 yard "par 3", AND they've started their "par 3" before the 1st group gets to the tee of their real par 3, a much longer and more difficult hole than the guys now playing behind them.

 

90+% of the time the 2nd group HAS to be waiting for the 1st group to finish #2.

 

There are plenty of other hole combos/issues like this.

 

Short dogleg par 4 6th. 1st group on the green. 2nd group 2 guys "lay up" in the fairway and the other 2, able to fly the dogleg and hit the green have to wait until the green clears.

 

Next group (#3) finishes the easy/short par 4 5th and is now waiting on that same 6th tee for the last 2 guys (who can clear the dogleg) from group 2 who are waiting for the green to clear.

 

12 is a very difficult dogleg with water right and OB left. If the 1st group plays it well (quickly) and the 2nd group has a couple of guys get wet, or just get in trouble, often the 1st group is on the 13th green (short par 4 downwind), and sometimes even done with 13 by the time the 2nd group gets to the 13th tee.

 

Play a (busy) course often enough and you will see the same backups and same larges spaces between groups.

 

Round after round after round.

 

Now, you can submit suggestions for how a marshal can help any or all of this - and I'll be happy to pass your suggestions on to the golf course.

 

 

[Double Mocha Man]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Fine, I don't agree with him. Or you.

 

Marshaling cannot change the design of the course or how it's played. Or the trouble some golfers can get into, especially when the group in front of them is playing unusually well.

 

1st hole at one of my regulars. Shortish par 5, just long enough so most can't get home in 2 and will lay up to within about 50 yards of the hole in 2 while group 1 is on the green.

 

1st group is putting while 2nd group is driving forward to their balls 50 yards from the green.

 

2nd group waits a very short time while the last guy in group 1 putts out.

 

So from this point you now have the 2nd group playing a very short, 50 yard "par 3", AND they've started their "par 3" before the 1st group gets to the tee of their real par 3, a much longer and more difficult hole than the guys now playing behind them.

 

90+% of the time the 2nd group HAS to be waiting for the 1st group to finish #2.

 

There are plenty of other hole combos/issues like this.

 

Short dogleg par 4 6th. 1st group on the green. 2nd group 2 guys "lay up" in the fairway and the other 2, able to fly the dogleg and hit the green have to wait until the green clears.

 

Next group (#3) finishes the easy/short par 4 5th and is now waiting on that same 6th tee for the last 2 guys (who can clear the dogleg) from group 2 who are waiting for the green to clear.

 

12 is a very difficult dogleg with water right and OB left. If the 1st group plays it well (quickly) and the 2nd group has a couple of guys get wet, or just get in trouble, often the 1st group is on the 13th green (short par 4 downwind), and sometimes even done with 13 by the time the 2nd group gets to the 13th tee.

 

Play a (busy) course often enough and you will see the same backups and same larges spaces between groups.

 

Round after round after round.

 

Now, you can submit suggestions for how a marshal can help any or all of this - and I'll be happy to pass your suggestions on to the golf course.

 

 

 

I would ask:  What is the ideal first hole... for pace of play?

[StudentGolfer4]

@nsxguy could not agree more about course design causing predictable backups. Course I play frequently has a semi driveable par 4 as hole 2 with OB in play right and water along the entire left side. Immediately after that is a longer 175-190 par 3 to an elevated green through a narrow chute. Because the hole is elevated there’s a creek along the left side of the green that drops down 15-20 yards. The water is at the bottom but balls commonly hang up along the bank and can be found and played. These two holes cause a backup every single time. Frequently you pull up to these holes and another group is still on the tee. Hole 4 is a long straight par 5 that isn’t reachable for 90% or people. The tee box is always open and normally your group doesn’t have to wait once the entire hole. Marshals aren’t solving this issue. It’s about course flow and each course is different. 
 

@Double Mocha Man a medium length par 4 with no hazards, OB, blind shots, and limited bunkers would be the best answer. 
 

I’ve often thought a difficult par 3 would be a great way to get people spaced out to start the round. Tom Doak designed the 1st hole at The Tree Farm as a par 3. I’m guessing it was more about the land than pacing though.