LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[bscinstnct]

4 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

You’re completely missing his point.  Phil isn’t trying to recruit college seniors, he’s trying to get players like Rahm and Scheffler to cross over.  After players work their way through the minors and get on the PGAT, and have established themselves, if at that point their legacy is winning majors, then he’s saying LIV is the best way to do it.  You may not agree with that, but you can’t argue with the results so far.

 

It has nothing to do with getting players who haven’t paid their dues.  Phil knows he needs big names to make it work, not a bunch of recent amateurs.  He doesn’t want LIV full newbies, they just really didn’t have much choice in the beginning.

 

No, you missed the point. He said “future stars”, that’s what I was referencing 

 

As far as guys who have “made it”. Sure, if LIV offers a player $150MM guaranteed it’s something to consider. 
 

But it looks like LIV is a commercial failure so it’s most likely more risk than guys like Rahm and Scheff are looking for. 
 

And the last person any of these guys trust is Phil lol

Edited May 25, 2023 by bscinstnct

[betarhoalphadelta]

5 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

Funny.
 

One of the main reason people hate on LIV for is because they provide opportunities to players exactly like Block. If Block were a LIV player folks wouldn’t hesitate to burn him at the stake as a never was irrelevant bum. 
 

LIV is damned if they do, damned if they don’t in the eyes of this thread. 

 

You have to admit this is revisionist history. LIV only scraped the bottom of the barrel for players because they didn't get what they wanted--all the stars. If they were successful in attracting most of the top 50 for their tour, do you really think they'd be giving guys like Block--or even guys like Pat Perez--any opportunity at all?

 

The reports of how much money they were throwing at Rahm, Matsuyama, Tiger(!), etc should tell you that their original business plan didn't include giving opportunities to players who weren't already established stars. 

[CDM]

On 5/24/2023 at 10:12 AM, grm24 said:

And he doesn't wear his team logos while playing LIV.

 

Been discussed as you noted.  He has that in his contract because how his NIKE (all Nike) contracts are.  I wonder if Nike really "pays" that much more so there is NO other logo's on the shirts?  I mean are they really paying players so much more that it covers say 2 other logo sponsors?

Edited May 25, 2023 by CDM

[RobS]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

 

The PGA tour's purpose, as stated in the 501(c) paperwork is to advance professional golf.  I don't see "as long as we are the ones who do it" in there.  How on earth is players playing for more money in line with that?   "Did the right thing trying to suppress competition"?  

 

I don't disagree with your point about LIV's method being irrational economically.  But LIV's arrival, whatever one thinks of all the attached baggage, advanced professional golf.  More money is what advances professional golf.  Otherwise it's just amateur golf.  Every action and statement the PGA tour has made in response to this has been in direct opposition to their purpose.  

Anything the Tour is trying to advance would be on behalf of its members, not pro golf at large.  Sitting back and allowing LIV to take market share wouldn't be in the best interest of the members of the PGA Tour.

[HomaComa]

If you’re a player under 25 would you rather play on the DP World Tour or the Asian Tour?? Both are essentially feeder tours now 

[subrew]

1 hour ago, CDM said:

 

Been discussed as you noted.  He has that in his contract because how his NIKE (all Nike) contracts are.  I wonder if Nike really "pays" that much more so there is NO other logo's on the shirts?  I mean are they really paying players so much more that it covers say 2 other logo sponsors?

 

The only Nike contract I've seen that has allowed other logos on the shirt, is Nelly's.  And she is likely the most recent Nike signing.  She has Richard Mille on the right shoulder and Cisco on the left.  Both deals she had before signing with Nike.  Even her official "I just signed with Nike" photoshoot have those logos.

[OBbogey5]

LIV is an invite only Tour. It’s that simple, no points can be given. 

[OBbogey5]

3 hours ago, HomaComa said:

If you’re a player under 25 would you rather play on the DP World Tour or the Asian Tour?? Both are essentially feeder tours now 

Asian Tour. The groupies. 

[idrive]

12 hours ago, HomaComa said:

The team aspect isn’t that big of a hurdle for OWGR points. That’s just an additional competition. It’s the lack of cuts and limited fields. LIV should restructure to have 72 man fields (18 teams of 4), and have a 54 hole cut where the top 48 guys move on. For the team competition at least 3 guys on the same team need to make the cut.

 

They're already scraping the bottom of the barrel now.  They want(ed) the top players. They don't want to add any anymore fillers than they already have.

 

9 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

lets be honest about cuts.  it isnt for eliminating the weaker players.  if you want the best over the course of 3 or 4 rounds to win then they should get to play all the rounds.  someone, especially at this level of golf, that misses the cut could go 60-60 on the weekend and possibly win.  cuts are so those players dont have to be paid.

 

The purse is the purse. The total amount paid out is the same for 25 players as it is for a 100 players.

[grm24]

10 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

someone, especially at this level of golf, that misses the cut could go 60-60 on the weekend and possibly win

Laughable. Exactly how many times in all levels of professional golf has anybody ever shot 60-60 in the last two rounds of an event and won or shot 60-60 in any consecutive rounds? The answer is crystal clear. 

[2bGood]

15 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

The PGA tour's purpose, as stated in the 501(c) paperwork is to advance professional golf.  I don't see "as long as we are the ones who do it" in there.  How on earth is players playing for more money in line with that?   "Did the right thing trying to suppress competition"?  

 

I don't disagree with your point about LIV's method being irrational economically.  But LIV's arrival, whatever one thinks of all the attached baggage, advanced professional golf.  More money is what advances professional golf.  Otherwise it's just amateur golf.  Every action and statement the PGA tour has made in response to this has been in direct opposition to their purpose.  

You need to read a little be more about the PGAT tax status before jumping to your conclusion.

 

The PGAT is not a 501(c)(3) but rather a 501(c)(6). The former is a charity (typically accept donations and issue charitable receipts and has a mandate for public good like you are suggesting), the latter is non-profit member organisation and is it not for general public good but only exist to serve its members:

 

A 501c6 organization is an association of persons having common business interests. The organizations’ purpose must be to promote their common interest and improve business conditions, not to engage in a regular business for a profit.

501c6 organisations include the following –

-Business leagues,

-Chambers of commerce,

-Real estate boards,

-Boards of trade, and

-Professional sports leagues.

 

The 501(c)6 status literally  is about promoting something for a membership base and no one else. In the case of the PGAT their membership base plays on the PGAT. If they were a 501c(3) you would have a point.

Edited May 26, 2023 by 2bGood

[AltC]

This may be a dumb question- but if the Asian Tour gets OGWR points allocated per tournament/ field and they have an interest in LIV via their financial backers - why don’t the Asian  Tour Co-sanction LIV events - with some consideration of course such as 4 additional spots for the Asian Tour players to break through onto the LIV tour (another team basically) with rotating players based upon recent winners on the Asian Tour? Would the OGWR then not be driven to award points based upon the field? I know there are other considerations but is this not a valid (back door) to get OGWR points allocated?

[Golferpaul]

13 hours ago, RobS said:

Anything the Tour is trying to advance would be on behalf of its members, not pro golf at large.  Sitting back and allowing LIV to take market share wouldn't be in the best interest of the members of the PGA Tour.

Not quite.  Their tax exemption is partly based on "growing the game".  Not just PGAT, ;and not just professional.

 

Here is what the PGAT Form 990 says;

 

 

[bcjim]

If a random golfer were to win the US Open,  he would be a PGA Tour member for 5y.

 

What would he be guaranteed on the SGL tour?

[AltC]

Greg Norman ( or to be more accurate The State Investment fund of KSA) might also talk with the Sunshine Tour and the Australasian Tour regarding Co- sanctioning tournaments and ‘sponsorship’ to make things even more complicated to deny access to the OGWR points! It can’t have missed many observers that some of the SA Oakes and the Aussies Blokes seem eager to look for alternatives to the PGA Tour who have perhaps, made it more trying for them to thrive on a world stage - World game!

No political or moral position taken here just logical observation.

[CDM]

7 hours ago, 2bGood said:

You need to read a little be more about the PGAT tax status before jumping to your conclusion.

 

The PGAT is not a 501(c)(3) but rather a 501(c)(6). The former is a charity (typically accept donations and issue charitable receipts and has a mandate for public good like you are suggesting), the latter is non-profit member organisation and is it not for general public good but only exist to serve its members:

 

A 501c6 organization is an association of persons having common business interests. The organizations’ purpose must be to promote their common interest and improve business conditions, not to engage in a regular business for a profit.

501c6 organisations include the following –

-Business leagues,

-Chambers of commerce,

-Real estate boards,

-Boards of trade, and

-Professional sports leagues.

 

The 501(c)6 status literally  is about promoting something for a membership base and no one else. In the case of the PGAT their membership base plays on the PGAT. If they were a 501c(3) you would have a point.

 

100% correct post...!  Finally some "facts" posted in this thread  🤣

 

I looked into this awhile back when comments where made by Phil............given they came from Phil... 

 

The part I bolded is what is interesting to me and I am not sure how the IRS looks at it.   If the ruling is "not to engage in a regular business for a profit" it was a bit surprising to see that the PGAT did have just over $800 MM in cash asset.

 

NOW I could see it as "reserve" on operation which is allowed or something to that extent but I would have thought it would have been way less. 

[CDM]

48 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Not quite.  Their tax exemption is partly based on "growing the game".  Not just PGAT, ;and not just professional.

 

Here is what the PGAT Form 990 says;

 

 

 

PGAT has proven as of late they are all "TALK" when it comes to growing the game. 

 

I had not issues with the PGAT, let it be product vs product as that always wins out.  That noted they lost me on the amateur golf aspect.   If growing the game is "threatening" amatuer golfers (all for note, not just US college players) should they play in any LIV event, EVEN if they have never signed a contract with or played in a PGAT event they are banned from the PGAT.    

 

I get GN and PHIL are really damn petty but that move by that PGAT is the most PETTY thing ever..!   That has nothing to do with GOLF which they are say they are all about, that is ALL about protecting the "Circus" they have. 

[leezer99]

LIV Golf will be available on YouTube again starting with the DC event.  Bad news is that for those of you outside of the United Kingdom, Italy, Japan, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland, be prepared for a $3/day fee.

 

In other news, there are some great VPN deals you can get for less than $12/month.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

Google trends!

 

Well, the 90 day, which includes the pga championship timeframe , doesn’t show much of a bump in US LIV interest with BKs win. Less of a pop than the Masters and the 12 month just shows lower lows in untested since LIV launched last year.

 

For those who don’t think google trends tracks interest accurately, check out the bottom chart with Australian LIV interest for how accurately and timely the google data reflects interest. It clearly shows a huge spike for the LIV event in Australia. 

 

US 3 months 

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today 3-m&geo=US&q=Liv golf&hl=en

 

US 12 months 

 

 

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=Liv golf&hl=en

 

 

Australia 12 months liv interest

 

 

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=AU&q=Liv golf&hl=en

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by bscinstnct

[smashdn]

17 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Obviously this is speculation, but the first thing I'd expect Norman to do if LIV was awarded points but they're not as many as he thinks his tour is worth is to whine about how unfair it is that they don't get more points. 

 

Obviously it's hard to argue something that hasn't happened yet... But would you honestly say you disagree with that assertion?

 

I think I brought up the SOF issue they would face due to the SOF being calculated by OWGR.  It becomes self-defeating when they have gone as long as they have without regular events having an opportunity for points.  You need points to boost your ranking, you need your ranking to boost your available points.  

 

That is the system.  I am not arguing it one way or the other, only pointing out that is an issue for LIV in the calculations.

 

I would expect Norman to lobby for everything he possibly can for LIV and the LIV players, to the point of coming off as entitled and whiney to some, as that is his job.  The poor guy coaching the Detroit Lions has to coach his team and talk to the team's fans as though they have a shot to win the Super Bowl.

[smashdn]

12 hours ago, OBbogey5 said:

LIV is an invite only Tour. It’s that simple, no points can be given. 

 

12 hours ago, OBbogey5 said:

Asian Tour. The groupies. 

 

Which tour does the Asian Tour(s) feed?

Edited May 26, 2023 by smashdn

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, bcjim said:

If a random golfer were to win the US Open,  he would be a PGA Tour member for 5y.

 

What would he be guaranteed on the SGL tour?

 

Is that for the benefit of the player or for the benefit of the PGAT?  

 

The PGAT sort of "sucks in" talent.  They can choose to award cards to whomever they like using the criteria they see fit.  If your goal is to consolidate the best golf talent in the world on your tour so that you can market yourself as having that talent, it makes sense to award membership to "the hottest" golfer at a given time.

 

I use Matsuyama is an example of this.  Guy was playing Japan Tour basically minding his own business and by virtue of his world wide earnings (due to a great performance in the US Open iirc) he is awarded membership to the PGAT.  Now the top ten finishers in order of merit on DPWT are awarded membership to PGAT.  PGAT is becoming like Oprah.  But it works for them.

 

Right now a gent from France called Victor Perez is third in the Rolex Rankings (old order of merit I guess).  He is not currently a PGAT member.  Nor is Adrian Meronk and Jorge Campillo.  I don't know these guys' ambitions.  They may all just might be chomping at the bit to come play a full season of PGAT in the US.  But I would venture some don't or won't.  My point is the PGAT can say the top 15 finishers in any major get membership or every guy that wins his state open is a member.  They can say and do whatever they want with regards to their membership criteria.

 

PGAT membership is certainly an opportunity for some but extending that membership is also self-serving for the PGAT as well.

Edited May 26, 2023 by smashdn
possessive plurality

[ahenderX]

3 hours ago, AltC said:

This may be a dumb question- but if the Asian Tour gets OGWR points allocated per tournament/ field and they have an interest in LIV via their financial backers - why don’t the Asian  Tour Co-sanction LIV events - with some consideration of course such as 4 additional spots for the Asian Tour players to break through onto the LIV tour (another team basically) with rotating players based upon recent winners on the Asian Tour? Would the OGWR then not be driven to award points based upon the field? I know there are other considerations but is this not a valid (back door) to get OGWR points allocated?

LIV basically controls the Asian Tour based on the millions it has allocated to the Asian Tour. LIV tried the back door with the MENA Tour and this was rejected by OWGR. 

[subrew]

2 hours ago, bcjim said:

If a random golfer were to win the US Open,  he would be a PGA Tour member for 5y.

 

What would he be guaranteed on the SGL tour?

 

Nothing, because LIV doesn't have any arrangement with the majors.  They do have a way to "play on" to the main LIV Tour.  Scott Vincent won the Asian Tour Order of Merit in 2022, and was granted full LIV status for 2023.  Their International Series is basically their KFT.  I don't recall the exact wording that came out a couple months ago, but the top finishers on the year-end Order of Merit ranking will get LIV spots for 2024, and they will also run a qualifying event to fill a few more spots.  

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by subrew

[EstesPark]

Does LIV have group broadcasts or is it simply one main feed that swaps around?

[subrew]

4 hours ago, AltC said:

This may be a dumb question- but if the Asian Tour gets OGWR points allocated per tournament/ field and they have an interest in LIV via their financial backers - why don’t the Asian  Tour Co-sanction LIV events - with some consideration of course such as 4 additional spots for the Asian Tour players to break through onto the LIV tour (another team basically) with rotating players based upon recent winners on the Asian Tour? Would the OGWR then not be driven to award points based upon the field? I know there are other considerations but is this not a valid (back door) to get OGWR points allocated?

 

That's the part that is confusing.  The Asian Tour already runs the International Series, which is basically LIV Lite, sorta acting as the KFT.  They get OWGR points.  What I don't understand is why LIV doesn't just suck it up (Greg's ego probably) and just go full Asian Tour capture.  Make it the "LIV World Tour" fully sanctioned by the Asian Tour.  

 

They would have their normal Asian Tour events.  The slightly upfitted International Tour events.  And then the main LIV events, which would be essentially "elevated" or "designated" events 😀.  Hell, go buy whatever tour series is happening in Australia too.  They could have half a dozen regional series, then the International series that cruises around the world, then the big-boy LIV series. 

 

Kinda like how World Superbike racing used to run in conjunction with the national level superbike series events.   British, AMA, Japanese series held their events, and the travelling World series would join in on the occasional weekend.  The local AMA guys would get a chance to ride a third bike for the factory World team.  

 

This kind of arrangement would let them (LIV) average out the number of players across three different levels of tour events, per the OWGR rules.  That's exactly how the PGAT manages to get full OWGR points for their invite only, limited-field, no-cut events, because they get to average out with the 140 person Charles Schwab events.  

 

I think right now, everyone knows there is a tie-in with the Asian Tour, but it really isn't helping the main case for LIV.  The only thing it seems to have helped is added roughly 10 slightly higher paycheck events to the Asian Tour guys, by way of the International Series.  

[HomaComa]

1 hour ago, AltC said:

Greg Norman ( or to be more accurate The State Investment fund of KSA) might also talk with the Sunshine Tour and the Australasian Tour regarding Co- sanctioning tournaments and ‘sponsorship’ to make things even more complicated to deny access to the OGWR points! It can’t have missed many observers that some of the SA Oakes and the Aussies Blokes seem eager to look for alternatives to the PGA Tour who have perhaps, made it more trying for them to thrive on a world stage - World game!

No political or moral position taken here just logical observation.

This is a smart solution.

[bcjim]

24 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

Nothing, because LIV doesn't have any arrangement with the majors.  They do have a way to "play on" to the main LIV Tour.  Scott Vincent won the Asian Tour Order of Merit in 2022, and was granted full LIV status for 2023.  Their International Series is basically their KFT.  I don't recall the exact wording that came out a couple months ago, but the top finishers on the year-end Order of Merit ranking will get LIV spots for 2024, and they will also run a qualifying event to fill a few more spots.  

 

They don't need an arrangement.  They could just offer immediate full status to any major winner.

Edited May 26, 2023 by bcjim

[Tpfol]

22 hours ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Really ? I don't recall reading that Jon Rahm was offered a spot in the LIV Adelaide event. 

 

Is that how this works? Respond to a post without comprehending the context? Cool. 

PGA tour players arent eligible to compete in LIV, per the PGA tour.

Thats why there isnt reciprocity

 

[Tpfol]

13 hours ago, OBbogey5 said:

LIV is an invite only Tour. It’s that simple, no points can be given. 

Invite based on criteria. 

Sort of like when Jack and Arnie walked away from the PGA of America and started their own thing