LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[cdnglf]

4 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Sorry, TLDR, but I had to comment on this.  Wouldn’t make much money?  Do you know what they were changing for all access passes to the US Open at LACC?  I’ve paid less for cars.  The USGA did just fine at LACC.

 

Also pretty sure US Open is mostly TV-driven. The USGA's TV partners love being able to show it in east coast prime time.

[CDM]

https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/usga-considering-pathway-into-u-s-open-for-top-liv-golf-players

 

Interesting comment "If LIV golf is here to stay" by Whan.   

[Titleist99]

5 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

🤣

 

So, we can go back in time (TV cheesy swirly screen special effect)….

 

Remember early 2000s? We had TW, Phil, Ernie, VJ. Then Sergio, Goosen, Furyk, Angel. Set TW aside since there is no TW now, but if you took Phil, Ernie, and a few more guys out…it just wouldn’t be as good

 

Ok, now fast forward to 2017, Rory, Spieth, Day, JT, Rickie, Stenson. Same thing, you take out Rory, JT, and a few more guys and it’s not as good.

 

Same thing applies now. It’s not a big mystery ratings are down big. It’s just not as good with 5 top guys out. 

You place entirely too much value on the players that left. There is always turnover on the PGAT. Liv only have five players of value if you think about it. If the Tour can't stand to lose five players then shame on them.

 

Just one mans opinion.

Edited June 12 by Titleist99

[CDM]

5 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Myself (and 20% per the ratings drop) are anti-LIV and very pro-pga tour

 

But watch allllllot less without BK, Cam, Rahm, DJ, Bryson, and several other strong players. 
 

The pga tour is just not as good to watch because of the talent drain. 
 

I don’t watch a liv at all so it’s a total waste. 
 

I completely blame SA but I can’t make myself watch golf that’s just not that great. 

 

@bscinstnct agree with you the PGAT is is just not as good to watch with split.   

 

Tried to watch both the weekend.   Honeslty was hard to watch either.   LIV shows way more golf shots which is nice but WOW it needs refinement on presentation.   Flip to the PGAT broadcast and 15-20 mins in I felt like taking a nap.  Not from the players but It is so mono tone and slow wathcng.  The one the PGAT does do is show the same players way to much IHMO,   LIV shows players no even in contention, they show a majority of the players regardless.  

 

Tough to watch any golf now besides the majors. 

 

Not sure if SA is to blame or not honestly? I would say yes at the beginning but time has changed that thought. 

 

100% they steeped in because they had the $$$$ to do it, but like anything that can be broken its becuase there was already a crack in the situation and to me at this point that isthe players.  I think we all have seen from both sides what the players are after and it seems to have alot of ZERO's.

 

Hoping for a great US Open.  Played No.2 a couple of times, interesting to see how they do with how firm it is. 

[Archimedes65]

Geez, if anyone wants to know how much value the defectors have, look no further than the LIV Houston highlights over on YouTube.  The crowd was tiny.  I’ve been in louder libraries.

 

Save for a tiny sliver of fans (mostly friends and family), nobody cares about LIV.

[CDM]

5 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

1000% Truth......

 

The PGAT is set up, so the top players are sprinkled around 40-45 yearly tournaments.

 

You are only obligated to play 15 of those tournaments to be a member.

 

What sport has all of the top players play every week?

 

It's the media that's trying to convince me and others that we miss players no longer on the tour.

 

I don't feel as if I'm missing anything when watching PGAT golf.

 

Interesting?  PGAT ratings on average are 20% down, some events even more.  That is 100% the media creating that?  You know we are talking about watching GOLF which moves a snails pace 🤣

 

Maybe (include me) find it nauseating every time you turn on an event all they do it talk about "the deal", LIV vs PGAT, etc.

 

Your saying that is media telling people to not watch or is becuase meida is doing that so much people are sick of it?    

 

OR could the ratings be declining by attrition...?  The average viewer age accroding to stats for the PGAT is 64 now. That seems like a model that will fail if they dont change demographics as it keeps climbing every year too. 

 

No clue way, but Steve Elkington was at the last LIV event and they asked him what he thought?   He seemed mixed to me.  It seemed like he did not like the loud music (like many of us) but he said it sure was not "exhibition" golf.   He said the crowd was much younger and there was a lot more kids compared to PGAT events.

 

So business model wise... you stay the course with viewers averaging 64 and aging or tapp into the younger people?  Who's future is brighter if they can withstand the all the damage done to date?

 

*  I play with our staff now and then.  We have a lot of mid 20's employees (3-5 years out of college) and many love to play golf, but all of them straight up say they dont not watch golf on TV.   All say the watching the PGAT is boring and LIV beng all over the place on the broadcast.  Funny a few noted they like watching LIV over the PGAT better but note after an hourthere brain is fried LOL

 

[Titleist99]

15 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

Geez, if anyone wants to know how much value the defectors have, look no further than the LIV Houston highlights over on YouTube.  The crowd was tiny.  I’ve been in louder libraries.

 

Save for a tiny sliver of fans (mostly friends and family), nobody cares about LIV.

Kudos to Rahm though for bamboozling the Saudis out of a half billion dollars though.

 

Maybe over a half billion for a golfer...... I think Rahm made the Forbes list.

 

Well done there.🤣🤣

[Archimedes65]

5 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

🤣

 

So, we can go back in time (TV cheesy swirly screen special effect)….

 

Remember early 2000s? We had TW, Phil, Ernie, VJ. Then Sergio, Goosen, Furyk, Angel. Set TW aside since there is no TW now, but if you took Phil, Ernie, and a few more guys out…it just wouldn’t be as good

 

Ok, now fast forward to 2017, Rory, Spieth, Day, JT, Rickie, Stenson. Same thing, you take out Rory, JT, and a few more guys and it’s not as good.

 

Same thing applies now. It’s not a big mystery ratings are down big. It’s just not as good with 5 top guys out. 

 

But in your analogy, it wouldn’t be Phil, Ernie, VJ, etc..  When the LIV defections started, there were only two LIV players in the top 15 OWGR, Rahm at 2 and Cam Smith at 6.  So it would have been like Phil and Padraig Harrington defecting, along with a bunch of decent players in the 15-50 range.  The top guys are overwhelmingly (80%) still on the PGA Tour.

[bscinstnct]

31 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

You place entirely too much value on the players that left. There is always turnover on the PGAT. Liv only have five players of value if you think about it. If the Tour can't stand to lose five players then shame on them.

 

Just one mans opinion.

 

Cheers T99, it’s not an analytical decision “placing value”  to ultimately stay tuned to a sports event….or a tv show or movie

 

You just do or you don’t. Right?

 

If you’re watching a movie with someone in there explaining to you how great it is, but you don’t like it you just don’t watch. 
 

My baseline in the 25+ years of pga tour golf that I’ve watched and enjoyed, both during and after the TW era

 

This year I just haven’t been interested in anything but the majors and the players. And the players would’ve been much better with the guys who left.
 

Scheff Rory Xander are fine but definitely need the pop that Rahm BK BD Cam and DJ would add. 

 

Cmon you remember, when Rahmbo was in the hunt everyone be like

 

[Archimedes65]

Don’t need any of them, and the fan support for the PGA Tour this year has shown that.  People are forgetting who those guys even are all but four weeks a year.  Those guys really need to hope a deal gets done that makes them relevant again or their future is just going to mostly be playing golf on empty golf courses for another bag of cash.

[Titleist99]

10 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Cheers T99, it’s not an analytical decision “placing value”  to ultimately stay tuned to a sports event….or a tv show or movie

 

You just do or you don’t. Right?

 

If you’re watching a movie with someone in there explaining to you how great it is, but you don’t like it you just don’t watch. 
 

My baseline in the 25+ years of pga tour golf that I’ve watched and enjoyed, both during and after the TW era

 

This year I just haven’t been interested in anything but the majors and the players. And the players would’ve been much better with the guys who left.
 

Scheff Rory Xander are fine but definitely need the pop that Rahm BK BD Cam and DJ would add. 

 

Cmon you remember, when Rahmbo was in the hunt everyone be like

 

I also remember when Ray Floyd and Fred Couples were in the hunt, yet I somehow enjoy PGAT golf.

 

I now enjoy it when Xander and Sahith are in the hunt. I just want excitement coming down the stretch and seeing the development of new talent.

 

I want to be entertained come Sunday. That's all I can ask for.

[Holy Moses]

41 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

Geez, if anyone wants to know how much value the defectors have, look no further than the LIV Houston highlights over on YouTube.  The crowd was tiny.  I’ve been in louder libraries.

 

Save for a tiny sliver of fans (mostly friends and family), nobody cares about LIV.

LIV stinks, but it was 98* with high humidity. Not conducive to fans.

[bscinstnct]

5 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I also remember when Ray Floyd and Fred Couples were in the hunt, yet I somehow enjoy PGAT golf.

 

I now enjoy it when Xander and Sahith are in the hunt. I just want excitement coming down the stretch and seeing the development of new talent.

 

I want to be entertained come Sunday. That's all I can ask for.

 

Me too and I love Sahiiiiiith! If he’s in the hunt I’ll watch

 

But just haven’t found the events that great. Majors have been good though. 

[Titleist99]

15 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Me too and I love Sahiiiiiith! If he’s in the hunt I’ll watch

 

But just haven’t found the events that great. Majors have been good though. 

Well, each to their own.......

 

I watch more PGAT golf now that Sergio and other Malcontents are gone.

 

The Memorial was excellent and never once did I say, "Where's Rahm or Cam Smith".

Edited June 13 by Titleist99

[bekgolf]

37 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Me too and I love Sahiiiiiith! If he’s in the hunt I’ll watch

 

But just haven’t found the events that great. Majors have been good though. 

 

There have been many exciting finishes this year imo.  I've enjoyed seeing the talent rise up from the ranks and get wins.  The only ones that have been a snooze are when one player is running away with it and the competition falls apart.  IIRC there was only one or two that fit that narrative this year.

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, Holy Moses said:

LIV stinks, but it was 98* with high humidity. Not conducive to fans.

 

But it’s been pretty much the same everywhere, save for Adelaide.  Their fan numbers in person, on line, and on tv are laughable.

 

Think of it this way:  LIV’s gate draw, their tv audience, and their on line views, are all materially lower than the Indiana Fever WNBA team with Caitlin Clark, a team where the entire payroll is less than $1.5 million.  Which is basically what LIV probably spends on croissants and caviar at one tournament.  LIV has to be bleeding money.

 

 

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, bekgolf said:

 

There have been many exciting finishes this year imo.  I've enjoyed seeing the talent rise up from the ranks and get wins.  The only ones that have been a snooze are when one player is running away with it and the competition falls apart.  IIRC there was only one or two that fit that narrative this year.

 

100%.  It’s 90% about the golf and 10% about the golf-ers.  If the Top 20 golfers disappeared in a plane over the Amazon, golf would move on and be fine.  But somehow we’re to believe that a few good players and a bunch of has beens forming a traveling golf circus is a mortal threat to the game?

 

Edited June 12 by Archimedes65

[bscinstnct]

It’s a testament to the pga tour that there only been a 20% drop in ratings. 
 

But that 20% is very likely the margin between running in the black…or in the red with deficits. 
 

Networks will forecast these ratings drops into revenue declines, the pga tours next media contact shrinks, and networks could even demand “clawbacks” on paying for what’s been negotiated til 2030 when the contract expires 

 

Then SSG has to cover the deficit or the purses shrink

 

That’s the critical mass point that SSG can’t tolerate because all the while, PIF will keep poaching top players

 

Thats why we are here doing a deal

 

I loathe PIF/LIV put I can’t watch a watered down field either. 

[bekgolf]

8 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

It’s a testament to the pga tour that there only been a 20% drop in ratings. 
 

But that 20% is very likely the margin between running in the black…or in the red with deficits. 
 

Networks will forecast these ratings drops into revenue declines, the pga tours next media contact shrinks, and networks could even demand “clawbacks” on paying for what’s been negotiated til 2030 when the contract expires 

 

Then SSG has to cover the deficit or the purses shrink

 

That’s the critical mass point that SSG can’t tolerate because all the while, PIF will keep poaching top players

 

Thats why we are here doing a deal

 

I loathe PIF/LIV put I can’t watch a watered down field either. 

 

I wouldn't do business with an entity that exists only to tear my business down.  If Pif gets a foot in the door and there is a coexistence with Liv it's the end of professional golf with the exception of the loss leader Liv that few like or want to watch.  It will crash and burn the PGA Tour.

[bscinstnct]

7 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

I wouldn't do business with an entity that exists only to tear my business down.  If Pif gets a foot in the door and there is a coexistence with Liv it's the end of professional golf with the exception of the loss leader Liv that few like or want to watch.  It will crash and burn the PGA Tour.

 

I don’t think SSG would do a deal unless it positions the pga tour as THE pro golf tour in the US. LIV plays international and, assuming PIF takes a stake in the of a tour, they would ideally focus on its success. 
 

The key is no poaching with huge sign ons. 
 

Let the contracts expire and the top guys come back to the tour. 
 

PIF will get their big Aramco events with major caliber fields. That’s the game changer and I think SSG and the players will have to go for it. Why not, the purses and revenue for the tour will be huge

Thats the best case I can see. I agree it would be disastrous to acquiesce to a deal that allows LIV to compete head to head with the pga tour in the US

Edited June 13 by bscinstnct

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, CDM said:

 

Interesting?  PGAT ratings on average are 20% down, some events even more.  That is 100% the media creating that?  You know we are talking about watching GOLF which moves a snails pace 🤣

 

Maybe (include me) find it nauseating every time you turn on an event all they do it talk about "the deal", LIV vs PGAT, etc.

 

Your saying that is media telling people to not watch or is becuase meida is doing that so much people are sick of it?    

 

OR could the ratings be declining by attrition...?  The average viewer age accroding to stats for the PGAT is 64 now. That seems like a model that will fail if they dont change demographics as it keeps climbing every year too. 

 

No clue way, but Steve Elkington was at the last LIV event and they asked him what he thought?   He seemed mixed to me.  It seemed like he did not like the loud music (like many of us) but he said it sure was not "exhibition" golf.   He said the crowd was much younger and there was a lot more kids compared to PGAT events.

 

So business model wise... you stay the course with viewers averaging 64 and aging or tapp into the younger people?  Who's future is brighter if they can withstand the all the damage done to date?

 

*  I play with our staff now and then.  We have a lot of mid 20's employees (3-5 years out of college) and many love to play golf, but all of them straight up say they dont not watch golf on TV.   All say the watching the PGAT is boring and LIV beng all over the place on the broadcast.  Funny a few noted they like watching LIV over the PGAT better but note after an hourthere brain is fried LOL

 

PGAT golf is just fine, and the ratings are just fine.🤣

 

The house is not burning down no matter how much you want it to be so.

[Noles]

52 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

It’s a testament to the pga tour that there only been a 20% drop in ratings. 
 

But that 20% is very likely the margin between running in the black…or in the red with deficits. 
 

Networks will forecast these ratings drops into revenue declines, the pga tours next media contact shrinks, and networks could even demand “clawbacks” on paying for what’s been negotiated til 2030 when the contract expires 

 

Then SSG has to cover the deficit or the purses shrink

 

That’s the critical mass point that SSG can’t tolerate because all the while, PIF will keep poaching top players

 

Thats why we are here doing a deal

 

I loathe PIF/LIV put I can’t watch a watered down field either. 

Why do you assume "PIF will keep poaching top players?"  They only got one guy this year and he seems absolutely miserable about his decision.

[Archimedes65]

54 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

It’s a testament to the pga tour that there only been a 20% drop in ratings. 
 

But that 20% is very likely the margin between running in the black…or in the red with deficits. 
 

Networks will forecast these ratings drops into revenue declines, the pga tours next media contact shrinks, and networks could even demand “clawbacks” on paying for what’s been negotiated til 2030 when the contract expires 

 

Then SSG has to cover the deficit or the purses shrink

 

That’s the critical mass point that SSG can’t tolerate because all the while, PIF will keep poaching top players

 

Thats why we are here doing a deal

 

I loathe PIF/LIV put I can’t watch a watered down field either. 

 

But it’s not down 20%.  The ratings have been back up since the early dip, and part of the decline has been due to an overall shift from TV broadcasting to online viewing across all sports.  The idea that golf fan support is truly down 20% is nonsense.  And tournament attendance has been really strong.

[Archimedes65]

38 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I don’t think SSG would do a deal unless it positions the pga tour as THE pro golf tour in the US. LIV plays international and, assuming PIF takes a stake in the of a tour, they would ideally focus on its success. 
 

The key is no poaching with huge sign ons. 
 

Let the contracts expire and the top guys come back to the tour. 
 

PIF will get their big Aramco events with major caliber fields. That’s the game changer and I think SSG and the players will have to go for it. Why not, the purses and revenue for the tour will be huge

Thats the best case I can see. I agree it would be disastrous to acquiesce to a deal that allows LIV to compete head to head with the pga tour in the US

 

It’s highly unlikely that you’re going to get many of the Top US players to commit to playing Aramco events overseas.  No way you get major caliber fields for multiple overseas events.

[Archimedes65]

10 minutes ago, Noles said:

Why do you assume "PIF will keep poaching top players?"  They only got one guy this year and he seems absolutely miserable about his decision.

 

Agreed.  If any of the big guns were going to go, they would have gone already.  LIV will likely keep picking around the margins, but none of the top PGA Tour players are going to LIV, unless something significant changed over there in terms of format and fan support.  I expected Rory might go if they went full International, but after he said he’d be finishing his career on the PGA Tour, I think it’s unlikely he goes to LIV.

 

I do hope the PGA Tour realizes how much fan support they currently have and how that could change if golf changes for the worse.  Personally, if they merged with LIV and the Tour went international, I’d stop watching golf entirely.  I have no interest in following a tour with overseas events eight to 12 time zones away.  And I have less than zero interest in watching team golf, so if that survives, I wouldn’t watch it either.  And I don’t think I’m very alone in either of those viewpoints.

 

Edited June 13 by Archimedes65

[DoughBack18]

On 6/11/2024 at 11:44 AM, smashdn said:

 

I think that is part of their deal with LIV.  You still have some players finishing out their previous sponsorship obligations. 

 

If you have no clothing sponsor or cannot have a clothing sponsor, what gear would they show up in otherwise?  I would assume whatever brand of clubs they have sponsorship deal with but I wouldn't wear the logo unless I was getting paid, because that space has a value.  No sense not getting money for what you can.  Also the caddy as well.  I assume every deal with caddies is different but would think the caddy would get something if they too were wearing the logo their guy wanted on their head or shirt.

 

The ams are (or maybe were before NIL and some of that came or board/loosened up) wearing more often than not whatever school they go to or club they belong to.  They wear their "team" logo.

I do think that some of their clothing has brand sponsors. I believe that Dechambeau’s team wears Stitch Polos, and they’re logo is still on there. But agree that they want the team logos pushed for sure.

[jimecherry]

56 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

PGAT golf is just fine, and the ratings are just fine.🤣

 

The house is not burning down no matter how much you want it to be so.

[bscinstnct]

33 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

It’s highly unlikely that you’re going to get many of the Top US players to commit to playing Aramco events overseas.  No way you get major caliber fields for multiple overseas events.

 

The players are the ones at the table doing the deal. They are all represented by the same agents.

 

Between SSG PIF and the players, they’ll hammer out something everyone is on board with

 

Im just speculating that PIF will want the Aramco events since they were highlighted in the first agreement. They could all be in the US who knows?

[bcjim]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The players are the ones at the table doing the deal. They are all represented by the same agents.

 

Between SSG PIF and the players, they’ll hammer out something everyone is on board with

 

Im just speculating that PIF will want the Aramco events since they were highlighted in the first agreement. They could all be in the US who knows?

How will they be any different or better than say FedEx events prior to the split? Which many complained about? And if they are not in the US, then, really, how will that be an improvement?  Things get stale fast in golf. Except: 1. Majors; and 2. Tournaments with some history.

 

 

[Ghost of Snead]

46 minutes ago, Noles said:

Why do you assume "PIF will keep poaching top players?"  They only got one guy this year and he seems absolutely miserable about his decision.

 

They may get a few players on the downhill slide but the prospect of no OWGR points will deter many of them.