Rakes in the bunkers is ridiculous!

[larrybud]

I've always said ranks in bunkers is terrible practice, and here's a perfect example why. This is a FW bunker on par 5, 100 yards from the green. I could hear the ball hit the rake from 200 yards away. Of course I end up having to stand outside the bunker to hit this. It most definitely would have rolled center of bunker if not for the rake.

 

Yeah, I know "don't hit it there", but that's not the point. Not only does the rake effect play, it slows play down (if the rake is placed in the middle I have to rake the marks it has made, my footprints in retrieving the rake etc). 

 

[Imp]

Conversely, rakes outside of the bunkers prevent a balls destiny to go in the trap. If the rake is in the trap, the ball is in its rightful place, in the trap too. 🙂  6 of one, 1/2 doz of another. I move rakes away from frontal/approach areas or areas near the front of greens on purpose, whether in or out of the bunker. Should always be away from entrance areas.

 

Would be better if they had holes/tubes in the ground and stand the rake up in them. Odds of hitting them are much, MUCH less. 

Some places have rakes only on the carts. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Imp

[caniac6]

I think rakes in bunkers are maintenance motivated. Guys on mowers don’t have to get off to move them out of the way.

[SteelieD]

35 minutes ago, Imp said:

Conversely, rakes outside of the bunkers prevent a balls destiny to go in the trap. If the rake is in the trap, the ball is in its rightful place, in the trap too. 🙂  6 of one, 1/2 doz of another. I move rakes away from frontal/approach areas or areas near the front of greens on purpose, whether in or out of the bunker. Should always be away from entrance areas.

This ☝️

[sui generis]

25 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

I think rakes in bunkers are maintenance motivated. Guys on mowers don’t have to get off to move them out of the way.

 

That's a bogus reason, don't you think? Who else runs a business for the convenience of the employees versus for the benefit for the paying customers? 

[sui generis]

59 minutes ago, larrybud said:

ranks in bunkers is terrible practice

 

I'd abolish rakes. Bunkers would get attention when required by course maintenance or once a year, which ever comes first.  😉

[Double Mocha Man]

12 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I'd abolish rakes. Bunkers would get attention when required by course maintenance or once a year, which ever comes first.  😉

 

At least let's go with a kid's colorful ensemble of tiny rake, shovel and little bucket.  At a minimum we'd have to smile going into a trap for our shot.

[Colin L]

There are robots which crawl along the bottom of swimming pools to clean them.  I vote for a voice-activated robotic rake.

 

[LWelchGolf]

30 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

That's a bogus reason, don't you think? Who else runs a business for the convenience of the employees versus for the benefit for the paying customers? 

I don't think it is for convenience, it is for efficiency. With courses having 75-150 bunkers, that is a lot of time to add to your daily maintenance routines for the golf course. 

[sui generis]

11 minutes ago, LWelchGolf said:

I don't think it is for convenience, it is for efficiency. With courses having 75-150 bunkers, that is a lot of time to add to your daily maintenance routines for the golf course. 

 

If a course can't afford to maintain 75-150 bunkers, they should reduce that number. The Ross I play has 41. 

[sui generis]

25 minutes ago, Colin L said:

There are robots which crawl along the bottom of swimming pools to clean them.  I vote for a voice-activated robotic rake.

 

 

"Siri, rake the bunker." and "Siri, when you've finished the bunker, please repair the ball marks on #6 green."

[596]

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

I think rakes in bunkers are maintenance motivated. Guys on mowers don’t have to get off to move them out of the way.

This is true. But on the other hand now the guy on the bunker machine has to move them.  I was the guy that hated them outside the bunker.  Had to shut down the machine, walk around every bunker and throw them into the bunker.  It was either me or the bunker guy, take your pick.

 

When placed outside the bunker they should be away from the green, near the player entry and/or low spot of the bunker and placed headed along the target line so less is exposed to an incoming golf ball.  

[sui generis]

3 minutes ago, 596 said:

When placed outside the bunker they should be away from the green, near the player entry and/or low spot of the bunker and placed headed along the target line so less is exposed to an incoming golf ball. 

 

That's what our crew does each morning. By noon, they're all over the place. 🙄

[Double Mocha Man]

42 minutes ago, LWelchGolf said:

I don't think it is for convenience, it is for efficiency. With courses having 75-150 bunkers, that is a lot of time to add to your daily maintenance routines for the golf course. 

 

Good point.  Otherwise, let's add an hour to every greenskeeper's day, pay them the extra hourly wage and pass the cost on to the course's greens fee.

[hollabachgt]

In the hierarchy of my preference I'd go:

1. No rakes at all
2. Rakes in bunker
3. Rakes out of bunkers

2 hours ago, larrybud said:

Yeah, I know "don't hit it there", but that's not the point. Not only does the rake effect play, it slows play down (if the rake is placed in the middle I have to rake the marks it has made, my footprints in retrieving the rake etc).

 

That is the point. The bunker is an area of the course that is designated out of normal play. You should have little expectation as to the condition of your ball as it lay in a bunker. Complaining that a rake in a bunker impacts your potential lie is like complaining that your ball plugs in mud inside of a hazard.

 

Believing the rake effected your play and not qualifying the ball was played into the bunker ismisplacing the blame and not accepting the rub of the green.

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

That's a bogus reason, don't you think? Who else runs a business for the convenience of the employees versus for the benefit for the paying customers? 

As a former assistant superintendent, I can tell you it is not a bogus reason. This was never addressed by the management at any course where I worked. The biggest concern was that there were enough rakes for the customers to use, but no matter the location of the rakes, I have seen many players step over them, and never pick them up. This applies to private as well as public.

[sui generis]

Committee Procedures in the Rules of Golf, 2019, says this:

 

Position of Rakes

 

There is not a perfect answer for the position of rakes and it is a matter for each Committee to decide whether it has rakes placed in or out of bunkers.

 

It may be argued that there is more likelihood of a ball being deflected into or kept out of a bunker if the rake is placed outside the bunker. It could also be argued that if the rake is in the bunker it is most unlikely that the ball will be deflected out of the bunker.

 

However, in practice, players who leave rakes in bunkers frequently leave them at the side of the bunker which tends to stop a ball rolling into the flat part of the bunker resulting in a much more difficult shot than would otherwise have been the case. When the ball comes to rest on or against a rake in the bunker and the player must proceed under Rule 15.2, it may not be possible to replace the ball on the same spot or find a spot in the bunker which is not nearer the hole.

 

If rakes are left in the middle of the bunker, the only way to position them is to throw them into the bunker and this causes indentations in the sand. Also, if a rake is in the middle of a large bunker, it is either not used or the player is obliged to rake a large area of the bunker when retrieving the rake, resulting in unnecessary delay.

 

Therefore, after considering all these aspects, and while recognising that the positioning of rakes is at the Committee’s discretion, it is recommended that rakes should be left outside bunkers in areas where they are least likely to affect the movement of the ball.

 

However, a Committee may decide to position rakes inside bunkers to make it easier for maintenance staff to cut fairways and bunker surrounds.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=2&subrulenum=4

[Double Mocha Man]

25 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

... no matter the location of the rakes, I have seen many players step over them, and never pick them up.

 

Raking is a menial task for the guy who drove a Kia to the course.

 

31 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

• No rakes at all
• Rakes in bunker
• Rakes out of bunkers

 

Just like they give you a bottle of sand to fill divots they could also issue every golfer a rake, short enough to fit in the golf bag.  😄

[larrybud]

54 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

In the hierarchy of my preference I'd go:

1. No rakes at all
2. Rakes in bunker
3. Rakes out of bunkers

 

That is the point. The bunker is an area of the course that is designated out of normal play. You should have little expectation as to the condition of your ball as it lay in a bunker. Complaining that a rake in a bunker impacts your potential lie is like complaining that your ball plugs in mud inside of a hazard.

 

Believing the rake effected your play and not qualifying the ball was played into the bunker ismisplacing the blame and not accepting the rub of the green.

The rank most definitely affected my play. There's zero doubt about that.

I'm not sure what "designated out of normal play" means, that's just a made up phrase, and no meaning in the game of golf, unless you're speaking of OB.

From the pic, you can see the sand was firm (rained overnight). Not noticeable from the picture is that the sand in the bunker is quite concave, making a ball, especially with the firmness previously noted, roll to the middle of the bunker.

[larrybud]

3 hours ago, Imp said:

Would be better if they had holes/tubes in the ground and stand the rake up in them. Odds of hitting them are much, MUCH less. 

Now THIS idea I can go for.

[hollabachgt]

2 hours ago, larrybud said:

The rank most definitely affected my play. There's zero doubt about that.

I'm not sure what "designated out of normal play" means, that's just a made up phrase, and no meaning in the game of golf, unless you're speaking of OB.

From the pic, you can see the sand was firm (rained overnight). Not noticeable from the picture is that the sand in the bunker is quite concave, making a ball, especially with the firmness previously noted, roll to the middle of the bunker.

 

It affected play the same way a ball in play is affected by its environment. You allowed it to effect your play because you couldn't accept the consequence of your shot and the rub of the green.

 

There are only 2 areas that are related to the golf course in which a player is unable to ground their club when addressing the ball. Everywhere else on the course this behavior is permitted. So thus a bunker and a penalty area would areas out of normal play. The USGA may not use this term, but they use the term General Area when defining one of 5 areas of the golf course:

 

"Most of your shots during a round will be made from the fairway or rough, which are part of an area of the golf course called the “general area.” This area includes everywhere on the course except bunkers, penalty areas, and the teeing area and putting green of the hole you are playing. In the general area, you will normally play your ball as it lies"

[sui generis]

34 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

There are only 2 areas that are related to the golf course in which a player is unable to ground their club when addressing the ball.

 

Get yourself a 2019 Rules of Golf. R8.1b tells us where we cannot ground the club. 🙂

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=1

[hollabachgt]

14 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Get yourself a 2019 Rules of Golf. R8.1b tells us where we cannot ground the club. 🙂

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=1

 

Rule 12.2b lays it out pretty clearly that you can not ground the club in a bunker.

b. Restrictions on Touching Sand in Bunker

(1) When Touching Sand Results in Penalty. Before making a stroke at a ball in a bunker, a player must not:

• Deliberately touch sand in the bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the next stroke, or

• Touch sand in the bunker with a club:

  • In the area right in front of or right behind the ball (except as allowed under Rule 7.1a in fairly searching for a ball or under Rule 12.2a in removing a loose impediment or movable obstruction),

  • In making a practice swing, or

  • In making the backswing for a stroke.

[rd1959]

7 hours ago, larrybud said:

Now THIS idea I can go for.

Do you actually believe that, taking into account the irresponsible and entitled behavior so many people seem to have nowadays, that they would actually replace it in that tube? Not a chance. It'll be in the bunker when you get there.

Edited August 22, 2022 by rd1959

[rd1959]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

"Siri, rake the bunker." and "Siri, when you've finished the bunker, please repair the ball marks on #6 green."

Yep, take more of the responsibility of being a considerate person and give it to a robot.

[sui generis]

24 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

 

Rule 12.2b lays it out pretty clearly that you can not ground the club in a bunker.

b. Restrictions on Touching Sand in Bunker

(1) When Touching Sand Results in Penalty. Before making a stroke at a ball in a bunker, a player must not:

• Deliberately touch sand in the bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the next stroke, or

• Touch sand in the bunker with a club:

  • In the area right in front of or right behind the ball (except as allowed under Rule 7.1a in fairly searching for a ball or under Rule 12.2a in removing a loose impediment or movable obstruction),

  • In making a practice swing, or

  • In making the backswing for a stroke.

 

You stated an out-of-date prohibition on grounding the club in a penalty area. See R8.1b for the new news.

[sui generis]

4 minutes ago, rd1959 said:

Yep, take more of the responsibility of being a considerate person and give it to a robot.

 

We're joking around here . . . on the other hand?

[hollabachgt]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

You stated an out-of-date prohibition on grounding the club in a penalty area. See R8.1b for the new news.

I quoted the same rule book you referenced, from the link you provided. Look under 8.1b, there is a specific note that it does not apply to a ball in a bunker, and a link to rule 12.2b.

[RSinSG]

I've played at a couple of courses that had an in-ground storage system. The top of the rake is flush with the storage unit and the handle goes down into the ground. Only the head of the rake is above ground. I thought it was a good solution.

[Colin L]

2 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

I quoted the same rule book you referenced, from the link you provided. Look under 8.1b, there is a specific note that it does not apply to a ball in a bunker, and a link to rule 12.2b.

12.2b does indeed tell us what we are not allowed to do by way of touching the sand in a bunker but touching the sand for reasons other than that is permissible - such as raking an area other than in front of or behind your ball in order to tidy it up.  If an action isn't on the 12.2b list, it's allowed.