Rakes in the bunkers is ridiculous!

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, SheriffBooth said:

 

This is my favorite as well.  Makes the profile of the rake almost negligible, and keeps the rake handle dry and out of the sand.  I'm not sure why this has never caught on as the standard.

 

Sadly half in and half out does not solve the "in " problem.

 

14.2e/1 – Player Must Take Penalty Relief When Spot Where Ball Will Remain at Rest Is Nearer Hole

When following Rule 14.2e, there is a possibility that the only spot in the same area of the course where the ball will stay at rest when placed is nearer the hole. In such circumstances, the player must take penalty relief under an allowed Rule.

 

The player is not allowed to push the ball into the ground to ensure it stays on a spot (see 8.2b/1).

 

For example, a player’s ball comes to rest on the downslope of a bunker against a rake and, in removing the rake, the ball moves. The player attempts to replace the ball as required, but it does not stay. He or she then follows the procedure of Rule 14.2e with no success and finds that there are no other spots to try in that bunker that are not nearer the hole.

 

In this case, the player must take unplayable ball relief either by using stroke and distance for one penalty stroke (Rule 19.2a) or back-on-the-line relief outside the bunker for two penalty strokes (Rule 19.3b).

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=interp&section=rule&rulenum=14&subrulenum=8

Edited August 22, 2022 by sui generis

[Krt22]

6 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Sadly half in and half out does not solve the "in " problem.

 

14.2e/1 – Player Must Take Penalty Relief When Spot Where Ball Will Remain at Rest Is Nearer Hole

When following Rule 14.2e, there is a possibility that the only spot in the same area of the course where the ball will stay at rest when placed is nearer the hole. In such circumstances, the player must take penalty relief under an allowed Rule.

 

The player is not allowed to push the ball into the ground to ensure it stays on a spot (see 8.2b/1).

 

For example, a player’s ball comes to rest on the downslope of a bunker against a rake and, in removing the rake, the ball moves. The player attempts to replace the ball as required, but it does not stay. He or she then follows the procedure of Rule 14.2e with no success and finds that there are no other spots to try in that bunker that are not nearer the hole.

 

In this case, the player must take unplayable ball relief either by using stroke and distance for one penalty stroke (Rule 19.2a) or back-on-the-line relief outside the bunker for two penalty strokes (Rule 19.3b).

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=interp&section=rule&rulenum=14&subrulenum=8

Just the head of the rake is in the bunker and it rests in the flat of the bunker, lengthwise along the line of play. The chances of not having a relief point are extremely small. 

[buckeyefl]

35 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Yeah for certain layouts large bunkers are a must otherwise they are easy enough to hit around. For courses that don't have a lot of trees or other natural hazards, large bunkers are one of the few ways to make risk/reward a real decision.  

 

The pictures I showed were from a Florida course that used to be an orchard so there weren't any big trees. I had terrain but no real definition. The sand is natural sand meaning you dig down a few inches and there it is. Great design and more than doable to play a round from any tee and not be in a bunker. Play the wrong does and don't compensate and you can get in deep trouble.

 

Ok back on topic.

[sui generis]

27 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Just the head of the rake is in the bunker and it rests in the flat of the bunker, lengthwise along the line of play. The chances of not having a relief point are extremely small. 

 

Only "out" solves the "in" problem of 14.2e/1.

 

Half in and the curved handle half in rakes do often provide a clean rake handle.

[Krt22]

8 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Only "out" solves the "in" problem of 14.2e/1.

 

Half in and the curved handle half in rakes do often provide a clean rake handle.

The "in" problem is only really a problem if there isn't a point of relief. In the flat part of the bunker with the rake head along the line of play, this isn't really a "problem" IMHO. I have never seen a rake with a curved handle

[sailfishchris]

Two courses I play the rake is in the golf cart between the bags. It's great if you ride. But, if you walk or push cart well -no rake for you!

 

[Colin L]

@bunkeyefl

Thanks for the photos.   I'd say that  purpose of any bunker is to provide something not to hit in, but more importantly to create the challenge of a feature which requires a particular set of skills to play out of.   Maybe it's because of what I am used to, the more traditional look  but bunkers such as these and the even more bizarrely shaped ones I've seen pictures of strike me as being more to do with course designers trying to outdo each other in extravagant fancifulness than creating a golf course.  

 

In short, what do these monsters do that a well place set of "normally" shaped and sized bunkers don't do?

 

Do remember,  these are the thoughts of an old fogey,   Be gentle with him. 

[jholz]

Man, I would be glad if anyone at the courses I play thought about rakes and bunker raking even 10% as much as y'all do. We're generally just happy if the bunkers have sand in them.

 

But, given all of the options discussed and having witnessed a lot of varied rake placement alternatives over the years, and in agreement with @sui generis's rules concerns...

 

I'd have to say that outside the bunker, on the side of the bunker farthest away from fairway or green (where practical) with rake oriented to the line of play, is my idea of the best solution and generally what I have experience over the 42 years I've played the game.

 

I can't even remember the last time a rake interfered with my ball. 

 

Now, "No Carts" signs on the other hand. They've had my number lately...

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, jholz said:

Man, I would be glad if anyone at the courses I play thought about rakes and bunker raking even 10% as much as y'all do. We're generally just happy if the bunkers have sand in them.

 

... Many courses in Phoenix have no sand in them, and I mean NO sand at all. Tough enough to hit out of them with high lips but sometimes the ball will roll right through and out of them. Fair enough since there is no way to elevate a ball with a 6 foot lip right in front of you and no way to get under the ball. Only shot is to clip it clean and with enough speed to clear the lip it is going long and often over the green. So a fortuitous roll out of those non bunker-bunkers doesn't happen if a rake is in them, so outside is a must. 

[jholz]

Just now, chisag said:

 

... Many courses in Phoenix have no sand in them, and I mean NO sand at all. Tough enough to hit out of them with high lips but sometimes the ball will roll right through and out of them. Fair enough since there is no way to elevate a ball with a 6 foot lip right in front of you and no way to get under the ball. Only shot is to clip it clean and with enough speed to clear the lip it is going long and often over the green. So a fortuitous roll out of those non bunker-bunkers doesn't happen if a rake is in them, so outside is a must. 

 

Yeah, dealt with similar growing up in Denver. Gotta love the baked-out hard pan bunker lie. Later moved to the Southeast, then the Mid-Atlantic and added muddy bunker lies to my repertoire.

 

This is the reason I carry a 0* bounce 58* wedge in my bag.

[alittleoverpar]

Bunker maintenance is a huge headache for greenskeepers for many reasons.  On one of the courses I play they have turned several of them into grass bunkers which has worked out pretty good.  They basically mow them at rough height.  No rake required. 🙃

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

Easy solutions to this dilemma....

1. Don't hit your ball in bunkers

2. As bunkers are/were 'hazards' how about we just do away with rakes and make them an actual to be avoided area.

 

Truthfully, what POs me the most, is idgits who walk in the high side of bunkers and crawl back out on same, all without even attempting to rake.....has everyone lost their common sense in this regard?  Asking for a friend....

[alittleoverpar]

4 minutes ago, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

Easy solutions to this dilemma....

1. Don't hit your ball in bunkers

2. As bunkers are/were 'hazards' how about we just do away with rakes and make them an actual to be avoided area.

 

Truthfully, what POs me the most, is idgits who walk in the high side of bunkers and crawl back out on same, all without even attempting to rake.....has everyone lost their common sense in this regard?  Asking for a friend....

A lot of the people that play apparently don't know what the rake is for anyway.  

[rd1959]

2 hours ago, alittleoverpar said:

I really like this idea.  I don't know how easy it would be to get people to put the rakes in the tubes, but it would solve a lot of problems.

It sounds good in theory but, with the mentality of the average weekend warrior it would be considered as someone else's job.

[sprcoop]

On 8/21/2022 at 8:20 PM, RSinSG said:

I've played at a couple of courses that had an in-ground storage system. The top of the rake is flush with the storage unit and the handle goes down into the ground. Only the head of the rake is above ground. I thought it was a good solution.

I have played at least one course that had tubes for rake storage.   They were about 12" deep and left the rake head high in the air.  Pretty small impact surface.  Worked well.

 

Also played a course that had an 8" spike on the rake head that allowed for spiking into the general area or in the trap.  Also leaving a minimal impact surface and my preferred solution.

 

As for in or out of bunker for maintenance, I think in makes more sense.  The courses I play seem to get bunker maintenance about every 3 years so not much added labor spread over 3 years.  If other courses get bunker maintenance more often (surely not as often as mowing), oh well, cost of doing business.

[Soloman1]

[golfortennis]

4 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Played once at a course where the rakes were on the cart.  Had to go back 3 times to get the rake since I had left it at the bunker, cause, well, that's what you do everywhere else.

 

We have a new super at my course, and he is having the rakes kept out.  He changed how the bunkers are prepared each day(Australian style?).  These have gone over quite well.  Now just need to get some sand in some of the them....

[Colin L]

On 8/22/2022 at 9:47 PM, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

Easy solutions to this dilemma....

1. Don't hit your ball in bunkers

2. As bunkers are/were 'hazards' how about we just do away with rakes and make them an actual to be avoided area.

 

Truthfully, what POs me the most, is idgits who walk in the high side of bunkers and crawl back out on same, all without even attempting to rake.....has everyone lost their common sense in this regard?  Asking for a friend....

The don't hit your ball in a bunker response is really irritating.  How often, does  a group of 3 or 4 golfers of any level of ability from hacker to world class professional  go round a normal golf course without  anyone going into a bunker?   The nasty streak in course designers runs deep and their skill in placing bunkers so that they draw balls in from all directions like ball bearings to a magnet is both admirable and infuriating.  Balls go into bunkers; that's what the bunkers are there for. 

[antip]

14 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Played once at a course where the rakes were on the cart.  Had to go back 3 times to get the rake since I had left it at the bunker, cause, well, that's what you do everywhere else.

 

We have a new super at my course, and he is having the rakes kept out.  He changed how the bunkers are prepared each day(Australian style?).  These have gone over quite well.  Now just need to get some sand in some of the them....

LOL, Australian style on most courses here is you are lucky if the course staff rake as much as once a week.

[golfortennis]

25 minutes ago, antip said:

LOL, Australian style on most courses here is you are lucky if the course staff rake as much as once a week.

 

Lol.  I honestly couldn't tell you what exactly is being referred to, but that was the word used.  It appears to be some kind of raking the center portion but not really going after the faces?  

[antip]

10 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Lol.  I honestly couldn't tell you what exactly is being referred to, but that was the word used.  It appears to be some kind of raking the center portion but not really going after the faces?  

Yes, that style of bunker set up is fairly common, compacted sand on the faces/slopes and raked in the lower parts where the balls collect. It is by no means universal and it certainly doesn't prevent many bunker problems in the majority of courses that seek to keep their costs contained. 

[oikos1]

Raking a bunker is so antithetical to the original rules of golf. 

[chippa13]

The idea is to maintain as much as possible the same course conditions for all players for the day. That is why we replace divots and fix ball marks on the green. So that all players face the same test. Those giant footprints that you made in the bunker were not there when you got there and they should not be there when you leave.

[Mr. Bean]

On 8/21/2022 at 9:03 PM, larrybud said:

I've always said ranks in bunkers is terrible practice, and here's a perfect example why. This is a FW bunker on par 5, 100 yards from the green. I could hear the ball hit the rake from 200 yards away. Of course I end up having to stand outside the bunker to hit this. It most definitely would have rolled center of bunker if not for the rake.

 

Yeah, I know "don't hit it there", but that's not the point. Not only does the rake effect play, it slows play down (if the rake is placed in the middle I have to rake the marks it has made, my footprints in retrieving the rake etc). 

 

 

We use rakes with a bent shaft. When they are placed correctly (i.e. sideways) IN the bunker the problem you seem to have encountered is solved.

[Colin L]

On 9/3/2022 at 2:06 AM, antip said:

Yes, that style of bunker set up is fairly common, compacted sand on the faces/slopes and raked in the lower parts where the balls collect. ....

I noticed this week that a couple of our bunkers had been prepared in this way - maybe more as I wasn't in any that round* and only happened to see those ones in passing.

 

[*Gratuitous boast, in case nobody noticed.]

Edited September 8, 2022 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

45 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I noticed this week that a couple of our bunkers had been prepared in this way - maybe more as I wasn't in any that round* and only happened to see those ones in passing.

 

[*Gratuitous boast, in case nobody noticed.]

 

Do not worry, you'll find them yet 😆