Rakes in the bunkers is ridiculous!

[sui generis]

7 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

I quoted the same rule book you referenced, from the link you provided. Look under 8.1b, there is a specific note that it does not apply to a ball in a bunker, and a link to rule 12.2b.

 

Did you write this? 

 

There are only 2 areas that are related to the golf course in which a player is unable to ground their club when addressing the ball. Everywhere else on the course this behavior is permitted. So thus a bunker and a penalty area would areas out of normal play.

 

If this wasn't you telling the world that the Rules prohibited the grounding of a club in a penalty area, then who wrote it?

[Unplayablelies]

I recall a time some courses had rakes with spikes on the head. You jam them in the ground upright ,outside the bunker ,and they left a very small footprint.

[Imp]

9 hours ago, rd1959 said:

Do you actually believe that, taking into account the irresponsible and entitled behavior so many people seem to have nowadays, that they would actually replace it in that tube? Not a chance. It'll be in the bunker when you get there.

Yes, because a) they had to get it from the home, and b) also knew "hey, it has a home" and would put it back. On the ground, in the trap or out, it's "here is good enough". 

[larrybud]

11 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

 

It affected play the same way a ball in play is affected by its environment. You allowed it to effect your play because you couldn't accept the consequence of your shot and the rub of the green.

 

 

It affected play because the ball hit it. The manmade mis-placed object literally affected the ball, and I absolutely accepted it because I played the ball where it lay. 

 

None of that negates the fact that rakes in the bunker is the worst of all the alternatives.

I guess the question is why would you be against limiting how much a man-made object may affect play with such simple alternatives?

Edited August 22, 2022 by larrybud

[hollabachgt]

11 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Get yourself a 2019 Rules of Golf. R8.1b tells us where we cannot ground the club. 🙂

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=1

Did you write this and then become upset when the link you provided lead directly to the answer of your snarky question?

 

I appreciate that through this exchange you strengthened my argument by showing how unique of a situation a ball in a bunker is in relation to normal play.

 

PS: With each new rule book iteration the USGA continues to make the rules more complicated by trying simplify them.

[hollabachgt]

43 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

It affected play because the ball hit it. The manmade mis-placed object literally affected the ball, and I absolutely accepted it because I played the ball where it lay. 

 

None of that negates the fact that rakes in the bunker is the worst of all the alternatives.

I guess the question is why would you be against limiting how much a man-made object may affect play with such simple alternatives?

 

Next week on As larrybud Yells at Cloud: "I hit my drive down the middle of the fairway and it ricocheted off the 150 post into the nearby pond. It ruined my round and day later I was still complaining about it."

 

As I said in my original comment, I would be in favor of removing all rakes from the course. Let the grounds crew decide how frequently they rake the bunker but leave them as hazards the rest of the time.

 

As long as a rake sitting outside the bunker has the chance to deflect a ball either into or away from a bunker, that rake has a much greater impact on the play of the game than a rake sitting inside the bunker.

[SheriffBooth]

Let's take the temperature down in this thread, OK?  No need to get into fights about bunker rakes.

[buckeyefl]

18 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

That's a bogus reason, don't you think? Who else runs a business for the convenience of the employees versus for the benefit for the paying customers? 

Oh you would be surprised. Being golf specific, there are plenty of supers that get so wrapped up in their job that they forget the exact point mentioned.

[denkea]

35 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

Did you write this and then become upset when the link you provided lead directly to the answer of your snarky question?

 

I appreciate that through this exchange you strengthened my argument by showing how unique of a situation a ball in a bunker is in relation to normal play.

 

PS: With each new rule book iteration the USGA continues to make the rules more complicated by trying simplify them.

" " "There are only 2 areas that are related to the golf course in which a player is unable to ground their club when addressing the ball. Everywhere else on the course this behavior is permitted. So thus a bunker and a penalty area would areas out of normal play." " " "

 

OK. So we know that one is in the bunker.  Where is the other place?  Did you not say you CANNOT ground your club in a penalty area?  

[TwistedSister]

2 hours ago, Unplayablelies said:

I recall a time some courses had rakes with spikes on the head. You jam them in the ground upright ,outside the bunker ,and they left a very small footprint.

We used to have them at the course I played growing up.  They very rarely affected play. But one time in the City Championship one of the leaders hit his approach to the pin tucked directly behind the bunker.  His ball hit the handle and fell into the sand.  It would have been stone cold dead if the rake had not been there.

[buckeyefl]

27 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

 

Next week on As larrybud Yells at Cloud: "I hit my drive down the middle of the fairway and it ricocheted off the 150 post into the nearby pond. It ruined my round and day later I was still complaining about it."

 

As I said in my original comment, I would be in favor of removing all rakes from the course. Let the grounds crew decide how frequently they rake the bunker but leave them as hazards the rest of the time.

 

As long as a rake sitting outside the bunker has the chance to deflect a ball either into or away from a bunker, that rake has a much greater impact on the play of the game than a rake sitting inside the bunker.

 

 

It sounds great until youve played a course with massive waste areas and your ball misses the fairway by a yard and ends up in a 6 inch deep footprint. It's no fun.

 

At the last course I worked at we put the majority rakes on carts then at the end of the day someone would go out and track down any missing one. I liked the idea as we had 187 bunkers in play and some were massive ( think 150 yards long)so having the rake with you at all times ( no walking) should help speed up play.

[Colin L]

10 minutes ago, buckeyefl said:

 

 

It sounds great until youve played a course with massive waste areas and your ball misses the fairway by a yard and ends up in a 6 inch deep footprint. It's no fun.

 

At the last course I worked at we put the majority rakes on carts then at the end of the day someone would go out and track down any missing one. I liked the idea as we had 187 bunkers in play and some were massive ( think 150 yards long)so having the rake with you at all times ( no walking) should help speed up play.

What's the point of a 150 yard long bunker?  I'm familiar with long stretches of sand on golf courses (usually called beaches and sand dunes) but not actual bunkers way longer than football pitch.   

 

[larrybud]

57 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

As long as a rake sitting outside the bunker has the chance to deflect a ball either into or away from a bunker, that rake has a much greater impact on the play of the game than a rake sitting inside the bunker.

Can't remember one time a rake outside a bunker helped me, but at least once a year the above happens. Probably why the USGA recommendation is to leave them outside the bunker.

 

[davep043]

13 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

There are only 2 areas that are related to the golf course in which a player is unable to ground their club when addressing the ball. Everywhere else on the course this behavior is permitted. So thus a bunker and a penalty area would areas out of normal play. The USGA may not use this term, but they use the term General Area when defining one of 5 areas of the golf course:

 

12 hours ago, sui generis said:

You stated an out-of-date prohibition on grounding the club in a penalty area. See R8.1b for the new news.

@sui generis is absolutely correct.  You said a player is not allowed to ground his club in a Penalty Area.  Rule 8.1b includes this as an action which is allowed:

"Ground your club lightly right in front of or right behind your ball (but you cannot do this in a bunker)."

That Rule does NOT prohibit a player from grounding his club in a Penalty Area.  Further, 17.1b specifically allows a player whose ball is in a Penalty Area to:

"Play the ball as it lies without penalty, under the same Rules that apply to a ball in the general area (which means there are no special Rules limiting how a ball may be played from a penalty area)"

So you definitely MAY ground your club in a Penalty Area, just as you may in the General Area.

 

There is only ONE area in which you may not ground your club, when your ball is in a bunker.

[Schulzmc]

I'm kind of stunned that rakes outside the bunker would be preferred. Wouldn't it be best to avoid having an outside object affect the ball in the general area at all costs? If you hit it in the bunker, whatever you get is deserved.

[BIG STU]

19 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I'd abolish rakes. Bunkers would get attention when required by course maintenance or once a year, which ever comes first.  😉

Around my course it is a moot point because the Mens groups do a free drop out out of the bunkers and the tourons damn sure will not rake them. The course does try to maintain them somewhat. If they crew uses the sand pro to rake them follow behind the mens groups you can see where the ball was but no divot but foot prints going in and out. LOL playing my vintage rounds and regular rounds I play out of them exactly like it lies. I do it mainly because I am obsistant and try to see how bad a lie I can get one out of. I rake where I have been and if I am behind a slow group of old farts I will rake the whole bunker for the exercise and the point of trying to set an example. They did some extensive trap work a year ago for the World AM and one of the owners stated at the Saturday Shootout the traps were now in play. Oh man the old farts raised holy hell and said they were NOT playing out of them and if he insisted they do then they would not play the shootout any more. He threw up both hands and left muttering. Since then and I do not blame the owners they have not went out of the way to do any trap maintenance and I do not blame them. This year we are not part of the World AM thank the Lord so they have not did anything

[BIG STU]

18 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

If a course can't afford to maintain 75-150 bunkers, they should reduce that number. The Ross I play has 41. 

We have 25 and the course used to have about 10 more back when it was a top end resort course. The did away with some of the smaller Pot Bunkers and a huge one guarding the front of the 10th green when the course became community orentaited semi private

[BIG STU]

18 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

In the hierarchy of my preference I'd go:

1. No rakes at all
2. Rakes in bunker
3. Rakes out of bunkers

 

That is the point. The bunker is an area of the course that is designated out of normal play. You should have little expectation as to the condition of your ball as it lay in a bunker. Complaining that a rake in a bunker impacts your potential lie is like complaining that your ball plugs in mud inside of a hazard.

 

Believing the rake effected your play and not qualifying the ball was played into the bunker ismisplacing the blame and not accepting the rub of the green.

Very well stated----- Many these days do not accept part of golf is the "rub of the green"

[Krt22]

I like rakes Half in , half out and out of line of play. Basically have the handle resting perpendicular on the edge of the bunker, the rake part in the flat portion of the sand. Very little chance of a bad-bunker-rake-break 

[br61]

I wouldn't mind seeing all bunkers play as waste areas with no rakes. If you go into one, you get what you deserve. Golf can be an unforgiving game, right? 😉 

[dasams]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

I like rakes Half in , half out and out of line of play. Basically have the handle resting perpendicular on the edge of the bunker, the rake part in the flat portion of the sand. Very little chance of a bad-bunker-rake-break 

 

^^ This.

[BIG STU]

55 minutes ago, br61 said:

I wouldn't mind seeing all bunkers play as waste areas with no rakes. If you go into one, you get what you deserve. Golf can be an unforgiving game, right? 😉 

Correct that is the way I play them around my course except I play as a regular bunker not grounding the club no matter the lie

[RSinSG]

2 hours ago, buckeyefl said:

Oh you would be surprised. Being golf specific, there are plenty of supers that get so wrapped up in their job that they forget the exact point mentioned.

This is the truth. A couple of years ago my assignment (at the course where I now pick the range) was maintaining the bunkers so I worked for the super. This guy was very knowledgeable in all things agronomy-related and the course is always in great shape. He did lose sight of the fact that the culmination of his efforts was to make the course a better place for the players, and eventually golfers became secondary to a pristine course. He admitted to me he wished no one would play (and mess up) his course.

 

He got fired when he butted heads with the owner, and now he is a representative for Toro which is a much better fit.

[hollabachgt]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

 

@sui generis is absolutely correct.  You said a player is not allowed to ground his club in a Penalty Area.  Rule 8.1b includes this as an action which is allowed:

"Ground your club lightly right in front of or right behind your ball (but you cannot do this in a bunker)."

That Rule does NOT prohibit a player from grounding his club in a Penalty Area.  Further, 17.1b specifically allows a player whose ball is in a Penalty Area to:

"Play the ball as it lies without penalty, under the same Rules that apply to a ball in the general area (which means there are no special Rules limiting how a ball may be played from a penalty area)"

So you definitely MAY ground your club in a Penalty Area, just as you may in the General Area.

 

There is only ONE area in which you may not ground your club, when your ball is in a bunker.

He was half correct, I was half correct. He insinuated that you could ground your club everywhere and I had not realized grounding your club in a penalty area was removed from the rule book, thus my comment about the USGA making things more complicated as they try to make things simpler.

 

[davep043]

14 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

He was half correct, I was half correct. He insinuated that you could ground your club everywhere and I had not realized grounding your club in a penalty area was removed from the rule book, thus my comment about the USGA making things more complicated as they try to make things simpler.

If you can find the place where he said you could ground your club in a bunker, feel free to quote it and I'll withdraw.  I just checked, he never said that, he only said that you were wrong when you said there were TWO places where you cannot ground your club. 

And to my mind, things did get a whole lot simpler and consistent with the 2019 revisions.  To treat more areas exactly like the General Area makes things more consistent to me.  To retain the prohibition on grounding the club near the ball in a bunker also makes sense to me, its the one area where you almost always improve the CATS by grounding the club.

[SheriffBooth]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

I like rakes Half in , half out and out of line of play. Basically have the handle resting perpendicular on the edge of the bunker, the rake part in the flat portion of the sand. Very little chance of a bad-bunker-rake-break 

 

This is my favorite as well.  Makes the profile of the rake almost negligible, and keeps the rake handle dry and out of the sand.  I'm not sure why this has never caught on as the standard.

[buckeyefl]

2 hours ago, br61 said:

I wouldn't mind seeing all bunkers play as waste areas with no rakes. If you go into one, you get what you deserve. Golf can be an unforgiving game, right? 😉 

 

 

You would probably have a different mindset after a round or two. The average courses bunkers are already unforgiving and the average golfer not very good at hitting shots from them so no need to make it worse

[buckeyefl]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

What's the point of a 150 yard long bunker?  I'm familiar with long stretches of sand on golf courses (usually called beaches and sand dunes) but not actual bunkers way longer than football pitch.   

 

 

The point is having something not to hit into. It also frames the hole.

 

Golf can be an unforgiving game, right?

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by buckeyefl

[Krt22]

33 minutes ago, buckeyefl said:

 

The point is having something not to hit into. It also frames the hole.

 

Golf can be an unforgiving game, right?

 

 

 

Yeah for certain layouts large bunkers are a must otherwise they are easy enough to hit around. For courses that don't have a lot of trees or other natural hazards, large bunkers are one of the few ways to make risk/reward a real decision.  

[alittleoverpar]

23 hours ago, Imp said:

Would be better if they had holes/tubes in the ground and stand the rake up in them. Odds of hitting them are much, MUCH less. 
 

I really like this idea.  I don't know how easy it would be to get people to put the rakes in the tubes, but it would solve a lot of problems.