2023 Course Conditions- Phoenix Area

[AzRoger]

Looking at the tee sheet for Camelback (both courses) for tomorrow (Monday), $140-$160 for a morning tee time, and looks like most of the tee times are still open. Something has to give, doesn't appear people are willing to pay the crazy prices.

[puttnforthe8]

4 hours ago, AzRoger said:

Looking at the tee sheet for Camelback (both courses) for tomorrow (Monday), $140-$160 for a morning tee time, and looks like most of the tee times are still open. Something has to give, doesn't appear people are willing to pay the crazy prices.

 

 

I have been saying this for the last month.  It honestly feels like, either these golf course "managers/pros" are the biggest idiots on earth (when it comes to business) or they simply don't care.

 

While I don't know the full economics of costs, it seems there is no way lowering prices could not be profitable.

[AzSuperHack76]

1 hour ago, puttnforthe8 said:

 

 

I have been saying this for the last month.  It honestly feels like, either these golf course "managers/pros" are the biggest idiots on earth (when it comes to business) or they simply don't care.

 

While I don't know the full economics of costs, it seems there is no way lowering prices could not be profitable.

They are going to milk it for everything. Until they start to see less profit nothing is going to change. 

[cbbaron]

I will get roasted but there is some truth to this. Some courses dont want to lower cost because they dont want a certain element there and they make so much money during prime season they dont give a s$%^. I know a local course here south of Boston that has this attitude.

[hackeraz]

Wigwam Gold Sunday. First time on this track and will certainly be the last time on that track. Between some Mickey Mouse hole routings and greens that wouldn't even hold a wedge I don't have a desire to ever make that drive again. 

[AzSuperHack76]

Played Wigwam Gold today, I'll respectfully disagree with @hackeraz's assessment. I play Gold often, with the loyalty rate for state residents it is hands down one of the best values during the winter.

 

I've never heard the term Mickey Mouse describe the routing/layout. It's a classic parkland course with a strong mix of holes, plenty of dogleg lefts/rights, some strong par 5's, including the reachable 14th. Gold has a nice mix of par 3's as well, although #6's slope of the green tends to punish good shots, if you're too far left you risk being in the water, even hitting the green. The bunkering is very strategic on the course as well.

 

As for firm greens, they can be firm at times for sure, but once you adjust for the bounce you're fine. They just held the PGA Canada Q school out there and definitely firmed them up for that. After a few big storms over the last 7/8 years I'd say 30% of the trees were lost, now the only defense of the course is the greens. I had zero issues holding the greens today, with a variety of yardages/clubs coming in. Some of the pin placements can be tricky do to narrow greens, so it's all about the angle or where you chose to land the ball. You definitely need to play the course a few times to understand the greens and the pin locations. 

 

Overall the course is in great shape, tee'd off at 8 this morning and got around in exactly 4 hours. They were starting some summer maintenace, just started to aerate fairways, they will do the greens in June. 

[hackeraz]

2 minutes ago, AzSuperHack76 said:

Played Wigwam Gold today, I'll respectfully disagree with @hackeraz's assessment. I play Gold often, with the loyalty rate for state residents it is hands down one of the best values during the winter.

 

I've never heard the term Mickey Mouse describe the routing/layout. It's a classic parkland course with a strong mix of holes, plenty of dogleg lefts/rights, some strong par 5's, including the reachable 14th. Gold has a nice mix of par 3's as well, although #6's slope of the green tends to punish good shots, if you're too far left you risk being in the water, even hitting the green. The bunkering is very strategic on the course as well.

 

As for firm greens, they can be firm at times for sure, but once you adjust for the bounce you're fine. They just held the PGA Canada Q school out there and definitely firmed them up for that. After a few big storms over the last 7/8 years I'd say 30% of the trees were lost, now the only defense of the course is the greens. I had zero issues holding the greens today, with a variety of yardages/clubs coming in. Some of the pin placements can be tricky do to narrow greens, so it's all about the angle or where you chose to land the ball. You definitely need to play the course a few times to understand the greens and the pin locations. 

 

Overall the course is in great shape, tee'd off at 8 this morning and got around in exactly 4 hours. They were starting some summer maintenace, just started to aerate fairways, they will do the greens in June. 

We obviously played two completely different courses then. I've never watched a full wedge jump 8 feet high when landing on a green and that was more than once. Spinner full sand wedges running out 30+ feet. It's just entirely too firm for raised and guarded greens. As for routing, did I play a different number 18 because that's the most Mickey Mouse hole I've ever come across. Tee boxes were ok, greens were ok where they weren't fungused up and dead. Most the bunkers were concrete in the bottom. Sorry, it's just not a good course and even for $20 a round I wouldn't play it again. 

[AzSuperHack76]

4 hours ago, hackeraz said:

We obviously played two completely different courses then. I've never watched a full wedge jump 8 feet high when landing on a green and that was more than once. Spinner full sand wedges running out 30+ feet. It's just entirely too firm for raised and guarded greens. As for routing, did I play a different number 18 because that's the most Mickey Mouse hole I've ever come across. Tee boxes were ok, greens were ok where they weren't fungused up and dead. Most the bunkers were concrete in the bottom. Sorry, it's just not a good course and even for $20 a round I wouldn't play it again. 

Clearly... Again not one issue holding greens today, from 190 to 90 yards today. 

 

I can think of 2 small patches on 2 greens, one on hole 5, a 2x2 foot patch where a water line broke and I can't recall which hole but a small burn patch on another hole, their greens have been in great shape all year. Not sure I can think of many courses other than high end privates or resort courses with greens that are perfect this time of year. I recently played Blackstone, course was in perfect shape but just like anywhere else it had a few brown and burned out patches on the greens, I dint wake away thinking they were all screwed. I wasn't in any bunkers today, so can't comment on that but they were redone within the last couple of years, nice white sand. 

 

What don't you like about 18? It's a strategic hole. Have to carry the canal and stay short of the fairway bunkers on the right or take a bigger chunk off the canal on the left and not have to worry about the bunkers at all. Approach shot is a test as well, have to keep it out of the canal on the left. Lots of options off of 18 tee, driver, fairway/hybrid and long iron. 

 

Different strokes for different folks. That's what is so great about golf, it's all subjective. 

 

I don't think the Patriot All America (high level collegiate and amateur event), PGA Tour Canada Q School and multiple other colligate events would be played there if it was just a no good $20 course. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by AzSuperHack76

[hackeraz]

14 hours ago, AzSuperHack76 said:

Clearly... Again not one issue holding greens today, from 190 to 90 yards today. 

 

I can think of 2 small patches on 2 greens, one on hole 5, a 2x2 foot patch where a water line broke and I can't recall which hole but a small burn patch on another hole, their greens have been in great shape all year. Not sure I can think of many courses other than high end privates or resort courses with greens that are perfect this time of year. I recently played Blackstone, course was in perfect shape but just like anywhere else it had a few brown and burned out patches on the greens, I dint wake away thinking they were all screwed. I wasn't in any bunkers today, so can't comment on that but they were redone within the last couple of years, nice white sand. 

 

What don't you like about 18? It's a strategic hole. Have to carry the canal and stay short of the fairway bunkers on the right or take a bigger chunk off the canal on the left and not have to worry about the bunkers at all. Approach shot is a test as well, have to keep it out of the canal on the left. Lots of options off of 18 tee, driver, fairway/hybrid and long iron. 

 

Different strokes for different folks. That's what is so great about golf, it's all subjective. 

 

I don't think the Patriot All America (high level collegiate and amateur event), PGA Tour Canada Q School and multiple other colligate events would be played there if it was just a no good $20 course. 

Yep, that's the beauty of golf and many other things, we all get to have our opinions. I'm sure mine is clouded a bit my degree in turf but I'll stand by my argument that it's not in great shape. Just because some tournaments play there doesn't mean it's a good course. Look at McCormick for the same case example. Eighteen just has a very goofy routing with barely any visual direction in how the hole plays. There were a few other that way as well, I want to say around 11 or 12 or something, another one of those canal holes. And I don't mind firm greens that run but I don't feel a Trent Jones course design should play that way. If you want to set it up like that then level them out and double their size. Maybe it was just an off day and they got caught out not watering which hardened them up but I don't believe that to be the sole case. 

[R_Swanson]

RE: Pricing talk.

 

From what I've seen the N Scottsdale courses are still holding strong, but the rest of valley seems to be coming back to earth a little, at least if you are willing to play in the afternoon.  Not pre-covid pricing, but cheaper than it was in 21/22 in mid to late May.

 

 

 

 

[AzSuperHack76]

23 hours ago, hackeraz said:

Yep, that's the beauty of golf and many other things, we all get to have our opinions. I'm sure mine is clouded a bit my degree in turf but I'll stand by my argument that it's not in great shape. Just because some tournaments play there doesn't mean it's a good course. Look at McCormick for the same case example. Eighteen just has a very goofy routing with barely any visual direction in how the hole plays. There were a few other that way as well, I want to say around 11 or 12 or something, another one of those canal holes. And I don't mind firm greens that run but I don't feel a Trent Jones course design should play that way. If you want to set it up like that then level them out and double their size. Maybe it was just an off day and they got caught out not watering which hardened them up but I don't believe that to be the sole case. 

Just curious, do you have a lower ball flight? I could see that being an issue. I’ve been playing that course for years, along with multiple others that have never had the issue that you describe. Even when they did firm it up for the Canadian PGA Q school in April, it’s just a matter of adjustment. One less club into the hole. 
 

I still don’t get the “goofy routing” thing of 18. The hole is right in front of you. You can see the trouble, canal left, bunker right. Make a choice and put the ball in play. Don’t get me wrong, Wigwam isn’t anything special, it’s an average course usually in above average condition, but I’ve never heard the term Mickey Mouse to describe its layout. It’s nice to have a classic Parkland layout in the middle of the desert mostly void of Parkland courses. 
 

Just curious on what courses you enjoy playing? 

Edited May 25, 2023 by AzSuperHack76

[hackeraz]

1 hour ago, AzSuperHack76 said:

Just curious, do you have a lower ball flight? I could see that being an issue. I’ve been playing that course for years, along with multiple others that have never had the issue that you describe. Even when they did firm it up for the Canadian PGA Q school in April, it’s just a matter of adjustment. One less club into the hole. 
 

I still don’t get the “goofy routing” thing of 18. The hole is right in front of you. You can see the trouble, canal left, bunker right. Make a choice and put the ball in play. Don’t get me wrong, Wigwam isn’t anything special, it’s an average course usually in above average condition, but I’ve never heard the term Mickey Mouse to describe its layout. It’s nice to have a classic Parkland layout in the middle of the desert mostly void of Parkland courses. 
 

Just curious on what courses you enjoy playing? 

Nope, high SS and towering ball flight which again is what irked me so much about the course. If I was hitting low knuckle balls then I'd have zero complaints as I'd deserve it, but neither myself (I play to around a 4 currently) nor my buddy (he's closer to scratch) play a low ball, and we both saw and commented the same thing. Maybe it's a one off thing but given the drive out there I'll not be in a hurry to go give it another shot. 

[AzSuperHack76]

4 hours ago, hackeraz said:

Nope, high SS and towering ball flight which again is what irked me so much about the course. If I was hitting low knuckle balls then I'd have zero complaints as I'd deserve it, but neither myself (I play to around a 4 currently) nor my buddy (he's closer to scratch) play a low ball, and we both saw and commented the same thing. Maybe it's a one off thing but given the drive out there I'll not be in a hurry to go give it another shot. 

That’s nuts, crazy how it played so different within a matter of days. 
 

 

[teejaywhy]

Mountain Brook in Gold Canyon on Friday May 26.   I didn't pick it, was invited to join a group. Course was in good shape although one could question the value at $65 in late May.  Tees and fairways very good, greens receptive and rolled true if a bit slow.  Bunkers were playable.  Course is not too exciting from a design standpoint, but still, a nice morning, 3:40 round.

 

[Bonneville85308]

Desert Springs in Sun City Grand this afternoon. Course was in great condition all around. Fairways were cut short, were dry, ball was rolling good. Tees excellent. Fairway bunkers were very thin/firm, but I didn't mind as it made hitting fairway woods out of them easy. Greenside bunkers kinda crusty but again, not difficult to hit out of.  Greens way quicker than I expected, quite smooth, not many ballmarks. $65 with cart is pricey for a late May afternoon round on this side of town in my opinion (it's $85 in the morning, rates go down 6/1), but the conditions and the fact that it was empty made it worth it.

 

It's a pretty easy course; crazy wide fairways, gigantic greens, can putt from most places off the green, you almost have to be trying to hit in the water hazards. A bunch of forgettable holes but a few interesting green complexes and approach shots. Now that I've played all 4 SCG courses, I'd rate them from favorite to least favorite: Cimarron, Granite Falls North, Desert Springs, Granite Falls South.

 

[AZ_JHWK]

Papago today. They sent us off the 10th tee, while others were going off #1. We hit the window coming off #18 perfectly and played in just over 4 hours. The course was in good shape. The greens were smooth and a nice speed. Visually they were about 3 different shades of green with some brown thrown in, but they rolled well. $48 walking with the City Card. 

[AzSuperHack76]

On 5/27/2023 at 6:25 PM, Bonneville85308 said:

Desert Springs in Sun City Grand this afternoon. Course was in great condition all around. Fairways were cut short, were dry, ball was rolling good. Tees excellent. Fairway bunkers were very thin/firm, but I didn't mind as it made hitting fairway woods out of them easy. Greenside bunkers kinda crusty but again, not difficult to hit out of.  Greens way quicker than I expected, quite smooth, not many ballmarks. $65 with cart is pricey for a late May afternoon round on this side of town in my opinion (it's $85 in the morning, rates go down 6/1), but the conditions and the fact that it was empty made it worth it.

 

It's a pretty easy course; crazy wide fairways, gigantic greens, can putt from most places off the green, you almost have to be trying to hit in the water hazards. A bunch of forgettable holes but a few interesting green complexes and approach shots. Now that I've played all 4 SCG courses, I'd rate them from favorite to least favorite: Cimarron, Granite Falls North, Desert Springs, Granite Falls South.

 

Between Desert Springs and Granite Falls South's fairways, you could land a few B52 bombers....Haha, widest fairways in the state...

[Bonneville85308]

Whirlwind-Cattail early this morning. First time for me. I haven't yet played a Gary Panks design I didn't like, and I ended up enjoying this one as well. I could see a lot of similarities with Aguila, though Cattail had a lot more undulation on the greens. Pretty great conditions all around, nothing to complain about. Ball was rolling good, greens were smooth and receptive, fairways were mostly flawless, bunkers were good, bermuda rough is alive and cut to a reasonable height. Had a couple mudballs in the fairways but it didn't seem like they soaked the course too excessively. $85+ tax includes range balls. Played with some pleasant randoms as a foursome and finished in 3:25, never saw anyone in front of us or behind us. I played the copper tees at 5,895 yards, since the next set back of 6,300-Silver on a damp morning course looked a bit long for me on the scorecard. Copper doesn't have a men's slope/rating on the scorecard but it is in the GHIN app and seems low at 67.0/115 compared to silver at 69.2/123. The coppers really give you no big advantage on any one hole, they are just typically 15-30 yards shorter than the silvers on the same line. GHIN app also shows a silver/copper combo slope/rating but it isn't on the scorecard so I have no idea what it is.

 

Will be going back to try Devil's Claw for the first time in a few weeks.

 

 

[AzSuperHack76]

Played Talking Stick North this morning. Course is in really good shape. Ton's of roll out in the fairways, they are playing firm. Greens are fast and smooth, holding the ball well. There were a few goofy pin locations today. Pace was good, exactly 4 hours teeing off at 0800. The entire pro shop and restaurant is under construction so there is a portable building t ocheck in and they built a new "sandwich shop" next to the range. 

[hackeraz]

Kierland Ironwood/Acacia yesterday. Overall in pretty good shape, greens were quick, receptive, and true. Fairways were soaked and low spots were just a swamp so almost zero roll out until we made the turn and things started drying out a bit. Right around 3.5 hours as a foursome. 

[SilverBullets]

On 5/25/2023 at 8:35 AM, hackeraz said:

Nope, high SS and towering ball flight which again is what irked me so much about the course. If I was hitting low knuckle balls then I'd have zero complaints as I'd deserve it, but neither myself (I play to around a 4 currently) nor my buddy (he's closer to scratch) play a low ball, and we both saw and commented the same thing. Maybe it's a one off thing but given the drive out there I'll not be in a hurry to go give it another shot. 

 

Sounds like how Quintero plays for parts of the year.  One of the last times I played there we did a 36-hole day in mid-march.  It was a bit windy, which didn't help their greens, but the greens were infuriatingly crusty and firm.  It makes playing that course impossible because of the elevated greens and bunkering which force you to land the ball on the green.  As a 2 index, I wasn't able to hold the green with a wedge.  

[SilverBullets]

Played WeKoPa Cholla yesterday and was actually a bit disappointed.  The course was in good shape in the sense that it everything was green and there were no bare spots to make note of.

 

However, my gripe, is that the greens were SLOW.  They rolled smooth but there was zero roll out and putts would just slam the brakes on.  The entire course is overwatered (even moreso than a troon managed course) and we started playing lift clean and place in the fairways due to the amount of mud balls and actual standing water.  Granted I teed off early so I'm sure by midday it was better (other than the greens which were like putting on carpet).  

 

Played Troon Pinnacle on Saturday and it was in pretty damn good shape.  Some small patchy spots here and there in fairways but nothing pervasive and nothing impactful.  Those spots were typically saturated as they were clearly trying to bring them back.  Greens were perfect and were rolling pretty damn quick.  

[Bonneville85308]

On 5/6/2023 at 10:08 AM, Bonneville85308 said:

Early AM round at Hillcrest. I hadn't played it since probably 2020. The fairways, aprons, tee boxes, and particularly the greens, were in way better condition than when I played it a bunch of times back in 2018-2020, I was impressed for a low-end course like this. Greens were pretty much flawless. The fairways were heavily watered though, almost at TPC Scottsdale in July levels. Bunkers were a mixed bag, more sand then I remember (I recall they were total concrete in 2020), but generally unraked with lots of uneven lies. Rough was the usual Hillcrest mix of bare hardpan dirt, weeds, and dormant bermuda that has just started coming back.

Good deal for $48. Seems like they've also replaced the junky old carts since the last time I was here. I had forgotten how much I like the layout, I had a fun round.

 

 

Played Hillcrest again yesterday morning. Still in good condition by value course standards, the usual Hillcrest "rough" aside. Greens were excellent and the main selling point. Had a lot of fun hole locations especially on some of the longer greens like #4 and #13. Fairways had some browning but even those spots were fine to hit off of. Not as heavily watered as my 5/6 visit but still some wet spots to be careful of with the cart. Wasn't busy and I flew around. Morning rate goes down to $38 on 6/1 so I can see myself playing there a lot this summer.

 

[Bonneville85308]

Also played Sun City CC after my Hillcrest round. The winter rye seems to be in full burn-off mode in the tees and fairways with the bermuda not fully taking over/coming up yet so it's not visually appealing, but plays better than it looks. Course played pretty dry and firm all around. Very minor pet peeve with this course is some seriously unlevel tees like on #14 and #17 and a few rock hard greenside bunkers. Greens had some transitional thin spots between grasses it seemed and had a lot of tree debris on them (pine needles, twigs, etc.)  $50 including cart. Caught the tail end of a big traveling league event so I didn't fly around but pace was reasonable. For the price there are probably better conditioned options in the Sun City area at the moment.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Bonneville85308

[FlashNoonan]

Coyote Lakes and Vistancia this week. Coyote Lakes keeps getting better each time I play it. New owners seem to be investing into it. Vistancia was nice as well. Bunkers were rock hard but other than that it was in great shape. 

[fore_life]

Poston Butte today, solid shape tee to green, some areas of heavy watering but not really near where you’re playing from. Love that layout so much just wish it were quicker to get to, 45 min from far northeast Gilbert 

[cbbaron]

41 minutes ago, fore_life said:

Poston Butte today, solid shape tee to green, some areas of heavy watering but not really near where you’re playing from. Love that layout so much just wish it were quicker to get to, 45 min from far northeast Gilbert 

Now that you're a PGA pro do you get comped? Asking for a friend

[fore_life]

3 hours ago, cbbaron said:

Now that you're a PGA pro do you get comped? Asking for a friend

I am 100% not affiliated with the PGA system

[cbbaron]

11 hours ago, fore_life said:

I am 100% not affiliated with the PGA system

Was kind of joking lol

[fore_life]

It would be a sweet perk though lol