2023 Course Conditions- Phoenix Area

[Baraethon]

Wigwam gold yesterday, brutally hot but a lot of fun. It said they punched on July 10th but I could barely tell, greens and fairways felt great. Looking forward to trying the other two courses.

[Bonneville85308]

Hillcrest this morning, first time since probably 3 or 4 weeks ago. Like a lot of the lower end courses right now, it's taking a beating from the heat, but it is still very playable unless you insist on playing the ball down in the fairways. Fairways had lots of casual water/mud from irrigation, and burnt/bare spots. Greens were still in nice condition, slow and soft but putted smoothly. Had a lot of fun sticking wedge shots close to the hole. Lots of unfixed ballmarks from yesterday's lazy golfers kept me busy. Typical Hillcrest "rough". Tees were fine. I was in two bunkers that were wet but the sand was fine otherwise. Tee sheet wasn't busy, so pace wasn't an issue. Still a fair deal in my opinion for $38.

 

[tcbringhurst]

We Ko Pa Saguaro today. It was my first time at We Ko Pa. Despite the heat, there were sections in the fairways that were damp with little rollout on drives. I even had a plugged lie on 15. Greens were a little bumpy and slower than expected which was surprising. Bunkers weren’t quite hard pan but felt like they could get there shortly if not addressed.

 

It’s a fun layout with beautiful views and some unique holes. A few of the Par 4s felt repetitive.

 

I know this course is highly regarded here, but I was a little underwhelmed. Maybe it’s because of the typical summer conditions, but I was expecting the greens to be better at least. 
 

POP was 410

[Bonneville85308]

Boulders South this morning, as I continue to whittle down the few remaining Maricopa county public golf courses I haven't played.

 

The starter warned us the greens were firm as they were re-done last year. They were indeed firm, nobody was making ballmarks, but it wasn't difficult to keep short iron shots on the greens if you put some thought into it. However, you had to carry the ball to the fronts of the greens because just short, the ends of most fairways were completely saturated I'm guessing due to runoff from the greens. I had several approaches come up short and completely plug in the mud. Greens were pretty quick and smooth but many putts didn't break as much as they looked like they might, the other folks in the group felt the same.

 

Fairways were pretty good, few small thin spots particularly on the back nine, generally heavily watered. Bunkers, tees, rough, all excellent.

 

3:55 for an early AM round, no waiting, nobody pushing us. I don't think the course layout is conducive to a fast <3:30 round, so that seemed like a good pace. $105 with tax and "water fees." I booked as a single and was given a solo cart without asking. Range balls included but had to use mats.

 

I was hitting the ball decently but had some trouble on a few holes where the visuals from the tee or on the second shot were deceiving as to the best way to play the shot or how much room there was on certain angles. Definitely a course I think I'd do better on next time now that I've seen all of it tee to green, and I wouldn't mind playing it again. That being said, $105 for a local summer round is pretty much at my price limit, so this might become a once-per-year course for me, if that.

 

 

 

 

 

[soregongolfer]

I love those photos of Boulders.  According to their schedule, I'll be playing the North Course next month.  I'm looking forward to it.  

[puttnforthe8]

Papago this weekend.  I will have to say, it was the least enjoyable round I have had in a long time!  But I did get to work on my game/lessons from @fore_life at least.

 

First off, hopefully the guy in the all blue outfit on the Saturday 9:09 tee time reads these posts:  Freakin play the correct tees!!!  And if you were paired with that guy and reading this - please have the courage to tell people to play the correct tees (especially at Papago).  This guy did not hit ONE SINGLE FAIRWAY and spent most of the 110+ degree day in the desert.  Firstly, I don't get why you would want to do that in such temps?  But pairing it with a tee box you can't possibly play, is just torture.  Anyways, as a result it led to a long round.

 

Then, the twosome paired with were the most unfriendly people.  They didn't speak, acknowledge if someone said good shot/putt, on the phone watching videos, arguing with each other, no playing etiquette (would go to hit their shot right in front of others).  No big deal - after a few holes, you just let them be and go on there own.

 

Finally, the course - It was not in bad shape, but there are so many bad spots of thinned, bare or uneven grass in the fairway it just isn't fun.  The greens were terrible - bumpy and slow. The fronts of greens wet and muddy. So since the greens weren't holding much and the fronts soft, you would come up short or long.  Bunkers looked ok - I wasn't in one, so that's a positive.

 

I will say this - I like #9 redo, but 18 left a lot to be desired.  I feel like they should have done something different.  

 

Side note:  The gps on the carts is all messed up and would lock you out because of the tee boxes and old gps set up which apparently hasn't been updated.

[puttnforthe8]

13 hours ago, soregongolfer said:

I love those photos of Boulders.  According to their schedule, I'll be playing the North Course next month.  I'm looking forward to it.  

 

North is the better course, just not as picturesque (from a boulder perspective).

[Pleasedwith3putts]

On 7/19/2023 at 2:40 AM, tcbringhurst said:

We Ko Pa Saguaro today. It was my first time at We Ko Pa. Despite the heat, there were sections in the fairways that were damp with little rollout on drives. I even had a plugged lie on 15. Greens were a little bumpy and slower than expected which was surprising. Bunkers weren’t quite hard pan but felt like they could get there shortly if not addressed.

 

It’s a fun layout with beautiful views and some unique holes. A few of the Par 4s felt repetitive.

 

I know this course is highly regarded here, but I was a little underwhelmed. Maybe it’s because of the typical summer conditions, but I was expecting the greens to be better at least. 
 

POP was 410

A number of us prefer Cholla to Saguaro

[tcbringhurst]

1 minute ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

A number of us prefer Cholla to Saguaro

I’m considering playing Cholla August 30th as the fam and I are doing a staycay at Great Wolf Lodge

[SilverBullets]

56 minutes ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

A number of us prefer Cholla to Saguaro

Cholla has a really strong collection of par 4's and very solid par 3's.  Couple of holes are repetitive but overall I think Cholla has a better collection of 3's and 4's than Saguaro.

 

The problem is, Cholla might have the worst collection of Par 5's in the valley.  #17 is the only Par 5 on the course which I would classify as 'solid'... #2 and 8 are 2 of the worst par 5's I've played anywhere.  #10 has a quirky tee shot and then is bland from there in.   The Par 5's are what holds Cholla back from being the best public in Az.  

[Bonneville85308]

Coyote Lakes today. Conditions were much better than I expected, certainly better than some of the other lower end west valley courses right now like Hillcrest, Sun City CC, Palmbrook, etc. Fairways had really good grass coverage for this caliber of course (wouldn't say they were playing firm, but drives were getting decent rollout), greens were in good condition (though soft and kinda slow), tees not great but playable (some burnt spots and crowning), was in one bunker and it had decent sand but looked like none of the last 10 people to use it raked it, rough was good. 

 

Yeah it's a goofy layout that gets crapped on a lot here, but I made a few birdies and had a good time flying around quick on an empty course in the heat for less than $30, so I left satisfied.

 

[soregongolfer]

Verrado-Founders is/was scheduled for aerification in June, July and August.  Do they just do a thin tine aerification in the summer months?  I'm heading down there and want to play Founders, but not if they take cores and sand the greens beforehand.  

[puttnforthe8]

1 hour ago, soregongolfer said:

Verrado-Founders is/was scheduled for aerification in June, July and August.  Do they just do a thin tine aerification in the summer months?  I'm heading down there and want to play Founders, but not if they take cores and sand the greens beforehand.  

 

Pretty sure it is the big plugs.

[soregongolfer]

2 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

 

Pretty sure it is the big plugs.

Three months in a row?  Strange.  

[puttnforthe8]

10 hours ago, soregongolfer said:

Three months in a row?  Strange.  

Not sure about that...but the courses have been bad this year; so who knows.

 

but maybe they are doing something different there.  that's odd.  might need to call and ask.

[soregongolfer]

2 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

Not sure about that...but the courses have been bad this year; so who knows.

 

but maybe they are doing something different there.  that's odd.  might need to call and ask.

I've made a reservation for Cholla instead.  My thought is they probably wouldn't announce a small tine punching in advance.  

Edited July 28, 2023 by soregongolfer

[teejaywhy]

On 7/24/2023 at 9:23 AM, Pleasedwith3putts said:

A number of us prefer Cholla to Saguaro

 

Ok.  My thoughts:  Saguaro gets better each time you play it.  Cholla is best the first time (lots of visual wow) but the more you play it, the more it becomes just annoying.

 

But that's me.  Different strokes and all...  YMMV

 

 

 

[soregongolfer]

15 hours ago, teejaywhy said:

 

Ok.  My thoughts:  Saguaro gets better each time you play it.  Cholla is best the first time (lots of visual wow) but the more you play it, the more it becomes just annoying.

 

But that's me.  Different strokes and all...  YMMV

 

 

 

I've heard Cholla is tough the first time because of blind shots.  

[AzSuperHack76]

Corte Bella. It’s in OK shape, greens are grainy and slow. Fairways and tee boxes are good. Bunkers are awful. They need a complete overhaul. Typical summer conditions but not as good as it has been in years past. $58 for a weekend rate. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by AzSuperHack76

[puttnforthe8]

5 hours ago, soregongolfer said:

I've heard Cholla is tough the first time because of blind shots.  

 

There's no blind shots.  The issue with Cholla is that they built it stupidly where fairways run out to quickly, angles are all f'd up, run offs on fairways and greens that are beyond stupid.  

 

I consider Cholla the ultimate scramble course...you want one huge hitter to try and carry the dumb short fairways to the next one, and then good iron players to put it center of the green.  Then go for it when able.  

[AZ_JHWK]

3 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

 

There's no blind shots.  The issue with Cholla is that they built it stupidly where fairways run out to quickly, angles are all f'd up, run offs on fairways and greens that are beyond stupid.  

 

 

That's funny. I guess I need to pay more attention to the architecture. I've played it 4-5 times and have enjoyed it every time. There may be a couple of tee shots that are hard to decide what to do the first time around. You really have to think your way around this course.  I see where people don't like the par 5, 8th hole. But after a generous tee shot you really have to hit 2 more quality shots. You just can't fall asleep there. Scratching my head about the issue with the greens.

 

This is nothing like Saguaro, but why build 2 courses that are the same thing? 

 

Bottom line, play it and see what you think.

 

[puttnforthe8]

4 hours ago, AZ_JHWK said:

That's funny. I guess I need to pay more attention to the architecture. I've played it 4-5 times and have enjoyed it every time. There may be a couple of tee shots that are hard to decide what to do the first time around. You really have to think your way around this course.  I see where people don't like the par 5, 8th hole. But after a generous tee shot you really have to hit 2 more quality shots. You just can't fall asleep there. Scratching my head about the issue with the greens.

 

This is nothing like Saguaro, but why build 2 courses that are the same thing? 

 

Bottom line, play it and see what you think.

 

run on sentence on my part.... the greens are good...my comment is wrt the run offs of the greens that make people not like it - at least this is what I hear everytime we play it.

 

I actually like Cholla, except the ridiculous run out of fairways.  

 

I think #2 is beyond dumb.  #8 is better now.  #18 leaves a bit to be desired.  

Edited July 30, 2023 by puttnforthe8

[Bonneville85308]

Sunridge Canyon this early morning, first time for me. Today is the last day before they close for maintenance and overseed for 2+ months. There were some scathing reviews online about conditions recently, so I went in with low expectations. Fortunately those reviewers must have unreasonable standards as the course was in great condition given recent weather. Fairways had good grass coverage,  but most were due for a mow. Tees and rough were fine.  Wasn't in any bunkers. Greens were average firmness except for #17 which was super soft. They were pretty quick, but the practice green was lightning speed. One or two greens had some small sodded repair areas. All greens on the course have like 4 different holes cut in the greens with covers over the ones not in use, which is weird on a non-dormant green, but whatever.  Not sure what the official ruling is, but I had a few putts that would have rolled over and been deflected by these non-flush covers, so I moved the ball a little to avoid them. I never figured out what their hole location system was, there was nothing on the scorecard, most of the flags were black with a couple of red ones. Course was playing nice and dry except for #9 fairway which had active sprinklers turning a large area under repair into mud.

 

I got the impression that the biggest challenge of the "Wicked 6" is for people who are playing the wrong tees too far back for their distance and abilities and/or can't control direction well. Those folks will get annihilated on those holes. While I felt that probably 4 of 6 those holes were more difficult than most on the first 12, I'm a weakling and was playing the course from 6,010 yards and had no trouble getting on those six greens in regulation except for #15 where my drive got a big sideways kick off a mound that killed distance.

 

Pace was no problem, I was a single behind a couple of fast twosomes. ~$78 with tax and water fees. I'd definitely go back next summer. There were a few holes I thought were pretty stupid (#9 & 10) but a bunch of ones I really enjoyed. Even made an eagle on #3.

 

 

[AZ_JHWK]

Wigwam Gold today. Overall, a pretty fun course in decent summer shape. Greens we pretty smooth but were a slow-ish summer speed. A very flat property and all of the greens were pushed up and well bunkered. The greens had a lot of movement, plateaus and valleys, allowing for a bunch of great pin placements and if they ever get fast...look out. I found 2 fairway bunkers and the sand was great, a very firm, compacted texture. 

 

I jumped in as a single to fill out a foursome and when I arrived found out they had canceled. A guy that works at the course as a starter/marshall jumped in with me and gave me some great tips. We played in just under 4 hours behind several foursomes. $68 plus tax. 

 

The scorecard mentions this is a Robert T. Jones Sr. design opened in 1965, six years after Firestone South (google tells me he did a major re-design of Firestone in 1960) and was designed to be the "West Coast rival of Firestone". It can be stretched out to 7300 yards. It goes on to say it has been "recognized among Jones Sr.'s finest designs". 

[tcbringhurst]

37 minutes ago, AZ_JHWK said:

Wigwam Gold today. Overall, a pretty fun course in decent summer shape. Greens we pretty smooth but were a slow-ish summer speed. A very flat property and all of the greens were pushed up and well bunkered. The greens had a lot of movement, plateaus and valleys, allowing for a bunch of great pin placements and if they ever get fast...look out. I found 2 fairway bunkers and the sand was great, a very firm, compacted texture. 

 

I jumped in as a single to fill out a foursome and when I arrived found out they had canceled. A guy that works at the course as a starter/marshall jumped in with me and gave me some great tips. We played in just under 4 hours behind several foursomes. $68 plus tax. 

 

The scorecard mentions this is a Robert T. Jones Sr. design opened in 1965, six years after Firestone South (google tells me he did a major re-design of Firestone in 1960) and was designed to be the "West Coast rival of Firestone". It can be stretched out to 7300 yards. It goes on to say it has been "recognized among Jones Sr.'s finest designs". 

They have a Canadian Q school event there every year along with a college invitational. It’s a monster of a course when fully tipped out. 

[SilverBullets]

21 hours ago, Bonneville85308 said:

Sunridge Canyon this early morning, first time for me. Today is the last day before they close for maintenance and overseed for 2+ months. There were some scathing reviews online about conditions recently, so I went in with low expectations. Fortunately those reviewers must have unreasonable standards as the course was in great condition given recent weather. Fairways had good grass coverage,  but most were due for a mow. Tees and rough were fine.  Wasn't in any bunkers. Greens were average firmness except for #17 which was super soft. They were pretty quick, but the practice green was lightning speed. One or two greens had some small sodded repair areas. All greens on the course have like 4 different holes cut in the greens with covers over the ones not in use, which is weird on a non-dormant green, but whatever.  Not sure what the official ruling is, but I had a few putts that would have rolled over and been deflected by these non-flush covers, so I moved the ball a little to avoid them. I never figured out what their hole location system was, there was nothing on the scorecard, most of the flags were black with a couple of red ones. Course was playing nice and dry except for #9 fairway which had active sprinklers turning a large area under repair into mud.

 

I got the impression that the biggest challenge of the "Wicked 6" is for people who are playing the wrong tees too far back for their distance and abilities and/or can't control direction well. Those folks will get annihilated on those holes. While I felt that probably 4 of 6 those holes were more difficult than most on the first 12, I'm a weakling and was playing the course from 6,010 yards and had no trouble getting on those six greens in regulation except for #15 where my drive got a big sideways kick off a mound that killed distance.

 

Pace was no problem, I was a single behind a couple of fast twosomes. ~$78 with tax and water fees. I'd definitely go back next summer. There were a few holes I thought were pretty stupid (#9 & 10) but a bunch of ones I really enjoyed. Even made an eagle on #3.

 

 

 

I played it a week ago and didn't have any real issues with the conditions.  Fairways were a bit soft and lumpy but I mean it's been over 110* for a month straight... Nothing is going to be perfect. The greens last week were running pretty darn quick.

 

My biggest thing on the conditioning is how they are managing the cups/pin placements.  They have rubber covers where the old holes go. So instead of cutting a new cup and refilling the plug, they aren't cutting new cups at all and are just uncovering the old hole and moving their rubber cover.  I've never seen this done at another course.  It makes zero sense.

 

It results in the most rolled in edges I have ever seen.  Like 18th hole at a 50 year old putt putt course where they are trying to funnel all of the balls into the golf ball return lol.  That part is absolutely low rent and stupid.  

 

Sunridge is fine overall.  I feel like it has the potential to really good course and the land sets it up so it could be a great layout... However, it's just not.  The layout and entire course really lacks a good flow.  It kind of feels like you are playing a bunch of individual holes as opposed to a layout which builds into a great course.  

[Bonneville85308]

13 minutes ago, SilverBullets said:

My biggest thing on the conditioning is how they are managing the cups/pin placements.  They have rubber covers where the old holes go. So instead of cutting a new cup and refilling the plug, they aren't cutting new cups at all and are just uncovering the old hole and moving their rubber cover.  I've never seen this done at another course.  It makes zero sense.

 

It results in the most rolled in edges I have ever seen.  Like 18th hole at a 50 year old putt putt course where they are trying to funnel all of the balls into the golf ball return lol.  That part is absolutely low rent and stupid.   

 

Yeah one other thing about that cup situation I forgot to mention is that the cups on the course have cup liner rings inside them that are barely below the surface and probably lead to some lipped-out putts, plus I don't believe are legit per USGA rules. The practice green had that "funnel" effect going on bigtime, the grass was growing like a half inch down into the holes and was draped downward over the edges.

[SilverBullets]

44 minutes ago, Bonneville85308 said:

 

Yeah one other thing about that cup situation I forgot to mention is that the cups on the course have cup liner rings inside them that are barely below the surface and probably lead to some lipped-out putts, plus I don't believe are legit per USGA rules. The practice green had that "funnel" effect going on bigtime, the grass was growing like a half inch down into the holes and was draped downward over the edges.

 

Our group didn't have any 'negative' impacts from it (meaning putts which mega lipped out as they boomeranged around the rolled cup).  We did, however, have a number of putts which were funneled in lol.  Got to the point where you just lagged it up in the range and hoped it caught the funnel lol... pretty bad to be honest

[AzSuperHack76]

Troon North Pinnacle this morning. Amazing shape for the summer, course overall is super green and lush. Although there were some drives that stopped within inches of their pitch marks due to the moisture. Greens were near perfection, minus the usual complaint out there, unfixed ball marks, but not as bad as I have seen before. Tee'd off round 8, finished in 3:45 and that was waiting on an elderly couple over the last 3-4 holes. $118, for that course, conditions and mild weather this morning, well worth it in my opinion. Although a far cry from $65 pre-covid summer rate. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by AzSuperHack76

[chisag]

... After a 14 days lay off due to working in Portland and the intense heat, I finally played Raven yesterday. Really nice shape for August and $45 greens fees. ($35 for Arcis members) Most bunkers still suck and the greens have some slightly sketchy spots that only affect the putt as it loses it's speed, but I only had one veer away from the hole as it was dying dead center. But overall no complaints for this time of year and the fairways are I good shape.