Colorado river basin water restrictions coming soon: where do you see desert golf in 20 years?

[StudentGolfer4]

https://apple.news/ADWeHR6uiQbiWKEEUi512Lw
 

This seems relevant. Maybe everyone will come to the table without government intervention but I’m not hopeful. 
 

@puttnforthe8 about desalinization being the way of the future. Any idea how it is or would be paid for? I’m not debating you’re statement. Im just wondering if it’s federal money paying for this or if water bills and utilities will skyrocket for people in areas getting water this way or what. 
 

There’s a large plant near San Diego that does 500 million gallons a year. If we take the low estimate of $2 per 1000 gallons that is still a large amount of money when you consider that’s only enough for roughly 10% of the population in San Diego. 

[Phreddy]

Attached is a link to a NY TImes podcast on the Colorado River Pact.  It is 23 minutes, but very interesting.

 

The states that make up the Colorado River Pact had until today (Jan. 31) to negotiate a solution or have the Federal government do it for them.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/7-states-1-river-and-an-agonizing-choice/id1200361736?i=1000597391888

[DrSchteeve]

I lived in Scottsdale for 8 years, now Sedona for 2. What was and is bizarre to me is that despite all the discussion, news, etc about the looming water crisis, there are zero, and I mean zero, efforts to encourage water conservation, at least to the general public. Notifications from the city/county/state on water conservation: zero. Notifications from the water utility providers: zero. News sources providing tips on water conservation: zero. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but with a problem this significant, I shouldn't have to. Baffling.

[me05501]

14 minutes ago, DrSchteeve said:

I lived in Scottsdale for 8 years, now Sedona for 2. What was and is bizarre to me is that despite all the discussion, news, etc about the looming water crisis, there are zero, and I mean zero, efforts to encourage water conservation, at least to the general public. Notifications from the city/county/state on water conservation: zero. Notifications from the water utility providers: zero. News sources providing tips on water conservation: zero. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but with a problem this significant, I shouldn't have to. Baffling.

I think it’s the predictable result from decades of painting conservation in political terms. Speaking up for the environment or putting reasonable curbs into place can be political suicide for some. 

[zjory]

The Colorado River Compact and water usage in the West are near and dear to my heart and topics I follow closely. I am on the Colorado Trout Unlimited state board and the organization has been a key figure in negotiating major water usage policies in the state and how the upper basin states work with the lower basin states on supply and demand as related to the Compact. We work closely with government agencies and with companies like Denver Water. Their CEO, Jim Lochhead, who is one of the leading water usage experts in the country, recently presented at one of our board meetings. He spoke directly to the topic of water usage and demand in the Colorado River Compact, and iterated something I have heard many water experts say before - the water problem in the west is an alfalfa problem. 80% of water usage by lower basin states in the compact is for agriculture, and 80% of that 80% is for hay and alfalfa. 
As a conservationist, I believe we should consider and address as many problems as we can. But while golf courses are certainly a meaningful source of water usage, and I think less water usage for courses is important, they are not a huge factor when considering the big picture. 

[puttnforthe8]

3 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

https://apple.news/ADWeHR6uiQbiWKEEUi512Lw
 

This seems relevant. Maybe everyone will come to the table without government intervention but I’m not hopeful. 
 

@puttnforthe8 about desalinization being the way of the future. Any idea how it is or would be paid for? I’m not debating you’re statement. Im just wondering if it’s federal money paying for this or if water bills and utilities will skyrocket for people in areas getting water this way or what. 
 

There’s a large plant near San Diego that does 500 million gallons a year. If we take the low estimate of $2 per 1000 gallons that is still a large amount of money when you consider that’s only enough for roughly 10% of the population in San Diego. 

 

As soon as there is money to be made, corporations will make it happen and pass the cost on to government, businesses and consumers.

[Phreddy]

12 hours ago, zjory said:

The Colorado River Compact and water usage in the West are near and dear to my heart and topics I follow closely. I am on the Colorado Trout Unlimited state board and the organization has been a key figure in negotiating major water usage policies in the state and how the upper basin states work with the lower basin states on supply and demand as related to the Compact. We work closely with government agencies and with companies like Denver Water. Their CEO, Jim Lochhead, who is one of the leading water usage experts in the country, recently presented at one of our board meetings. He spoke directly to the topic of water usage and demand in the Colorado River Compact, and iterated something I have heard many water experts say before - the water problem in the west is an alfalfa problem. 80% of water usage by lower basin states in the compact is for agriculture, and 80% of that 80% is for hay and alfalfa. 
As a conservationist, I believe we should consider and address as many problems as we can. But while golf courses are certainly a meaningful source of water usage, and I think less water usage for courses is important, they are not a huge factor when considering the big picture. 

In a classic case of irony, and an example of zjory's point, Saudi Arabia leases 15 square miles of Arizona desert from the state at $.25/acre (25 cents) and it is irrigated at no charge for water.  They produce alfalfa hay on that land.  That hay is shipped back to Saudi for dairy cows.  They use 22,000 acre feet of water per year.  I'm not picking on Saudi Arabia.  They were smart and Arizona was dumb.  But when a resource is "free" the allocation of that resource is irrational.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by Phreddy
grammer

[me05501]

19 minutes ago, Phreddy said:

In a classic case of irony, and an example of zjory's point, Saudi Arabia leases 15 square miles of Arizona desert from the state at $.25/acre (25 cents) and it is irrigated at no charge for water.  They produce alfalfa hay on that land.  That hay is shipped back to Saudi for dairy cows.  They use 22,000 acre feet of water per year.  I'm not picking on Saudi Arabia.  They were smart and Arizona was dumb.  But when a resource is "free" the allocation of that resource is irrational.  

 

Bingo. 

[IndyArcher]

16 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

In 20 years, desalinization 'should' 🤨 be a viable option for water.  I am not holding my breath under water - but simply saying, we should be there today; it is one of humanities greatest technology failures (imo) that we are not there.  

 

 

 

That is one of the great curiosities of our modern culture. Of all the things we've been able to do, we can't efficiently remove salt from water. We've known how to desalinate for eons, but the energy it takes is highly impractical. Boiling distilling is largely too slow and very energy intensive and RO, while more efficient, still doesn't give us the volume for large scale efforts at what most would consider affordable for regional distribution. Hopefully we'll get there soon.  

[RSinSG]

I was on the Board of Directors (elected office) of Desert Water Agency for 20 years. DWA serves all of Palm Springs and some of Cathedral City. The agency is entitled to Colorado River water through an exchange agreement with Metropolitan Water District, and when the water is delivered it is used to recharge the aquifer under the desert using settling ponds you may have seen near the windmills. This recharge is a very small portion of the aquifer as almost all of the water comes from natural sources. All of the domestic water the agency uses comes from deep wells, however none of it is used on golf courses. All of the courses in Palm Springs are irrigated using recycled treated water from DWA’s treatment plant that takes the effluent from the City sewer plant.

 

Coachella Valley Water District services the majority of the rest of the valley and while many courses in their area used recycled water I don’t know the percentage that do.

Uninformed environmentalists who are very critical of golf in the desert do not realize the courses are not using potable water. In fact courses (and many government and school properties) that use reclaimed water are much more friendly to the ecosystem as the recycled water that is being used means less effluent that could leach into the aquifer and contaminate it with nitrates.

 

When you play golf in Palm Springs don’t drink from a sprinkler or anything attached to a purple pipe. It won’t kill you but you won’t like the taste. 

[scooterhd2]

13 hours ago, DrSchteeve said:

I lived in Scottsdale for 8 years, now Sedona for 2. What was and is bizarre to me is that despite all the discussion, news, etc about the looming water crisis, there are zero, and I mean zero, efforts to encourage water conservation, at least to the general public. Notifications from the city/county/state on water conservation: zero. Notifications from the water utility providers: zero. News sources providing tips on water conservation: zero. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but with a problem this significant, I shouldn't have to. Baffling.

 

Strange for me growing up in Las Vegas and then moving out to the East Valley. In Nevada, they had banned aesthetic fountains in front of new neighborhoods and at the corner stores. Decorative grass in banned from medians and traffic circles. There are laws about when you can and cant water your lawn. There's literally waste water authorities driving around neighborhoods responding to compliant and even issuing fines for people with sprinklers that are turned enough to be hitting the sidewalk instead of the the lawn, or for draining pools in the wrong method. Adverts on the TV and radio about waste water from the water district and the water authority. 

 

And here in AZ, every other gas station has a small water feature on the corner. Every neighborhood has a lake and waterfall out front. 2 more lakes inside, grass medians and walkways everywhere. A neighborhood near me requires a real grass front lawn. I see sprinklers going off during summer monsoons. People can build what ever size pool they want. All the parks have splash pads. There's golf courses everywhere. And I'm not complaining. I personally enjoy it and love it, but its just very odd that there is zero mainstream public conservation effort. Its basically the wild wild west and if you want to leave your hose on 24 hours a day, then go for it. 

[thezinfan]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:28 PM, Ferguson said:

 

I saw that.  That looked amazing.  The story was cool too. 

Somebody Feed Phil?

Edited February 1, 2023 by thezinfan

[puttnforthe8]

3 hours ago, IndyArcher said:

 

That is one of the great curiosities of our modern culture. Of all the things we've been able to do, we can't efficiently remove salt from water. We've known how to desalinate for eons, but the energy it takes is highly impractical. Boiling distilling is largely too slow and very energy intensive and RO, while more efficient, still doesn't give us the volume for large scale efforts at what most would consider affordable for regional distribution. Hopefully we'll get there soon.  

 

Examples:  no money in water....yet.

 

The Singapore-Tuas Seawater Desalination plant is a seawater reverse osmosis plant finished in 2005 with a capacity of ~29 million gallons per day. The plant achieves an energy rate of ~16 kWh/kgal.  (Americans on average consume ~150 gallons of freshwater from municipal sources per person per day.)  So about 3kWh per person/per day

 

The Digiconomist's Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index estimated that one bitcoin transaction takes 1,449 kWh to complete, or the equivalent of approximately 50 days of power for the average US household.  (A mining center in Kazakhstan is equipped to run 50,000 mining rigs, and another mining farm in China has a monthly electricity bill of more than $1 million as it mines 750 bitcoins a month.)

 

BTC = $22,000 ish ($445,289,857,893 - current MC)

Water = What is the value?? 

 

 

[Petethreeput]

20 hours ago, zjory said:

The Colorado River Compact and water usage in the West are near and dear to my heart and topics I follow closely. I am on the Colorado Trout Unlimited state board and the organization has been a key figure in negotiating major water usage policies in the state and how the upper basin states work with the lower basin states on supply and demand as related to the Compact. We work closely with government agencies and with companies like Denver Water. Their CEO, Jim Lochhead, who is one of the leading water usage experts in the country, recently presented at one of our board meetings. He spoke directly to the topic of water usage and demand in the Colorado River Compact, and iterated something I have heard many water experts say before - the water problem in the west is an alfalfa problem. 80% of water usage by lower basin states in the compact is for agriculture, and 80% of that 80% is for hay and alfalfa. 
As a conservationist, I believe we should consider and address as many problems as we can. But while golf courses are certainly a meaningful source of water usage, and I think less water usage for courses is important, they are not a huge factor when considering the big picture. 

We are running into the same things here.  The most successful of the partnerships is along the Blackfoot corridor where the ranchers (and this is from memory) stop irrigating at 400 CFS to protect the biomass of the river and the protected Bull Trout.  There is a proposal again to update this, but some of the legislature are dragging their feet because as someone else mentioned the environment is no longer just about the environment, but signals some political stance.

 

I agree the most prolific water users are the farmers, but there is no way a politician will make the call to cut their resources, whereas golf (the sport of the snotty and rich) is a perfect target for limiting water and making the stand against wasted water.

 

Now back to the financial implications, which is the ultimate driver of all decisions.  Alfalfa and hay put food in our bellies and pays the bills.  Adventure tourism, re. fishing (in my state) is the #1 or #2 business in the state and brings in a lot of money.  Golf?  Not so much.  That is why I think the courses will be hit early, and they in turn will respond by creating water hazards for non-potable irrigation water to level off the increase in costs for the watering.

 

I am surprised CO hasn't started something like this, because aren't you also in a drought?

[Pepperturbo]

Not sure where desert golf will be, but in CA, Palm Springs, south past PGA West, sits on a huge underground aquifer.  Last I knew, golf courses don't use Colorado water to water courses. 

 

Six states have agreed with Federal guidelines.  Only CA has not agreed; saying they will define their own guidelines, given CA is the largest user of Colorado water.  What's that say about CA.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[zjory]

5 hours ago, Petethreeput said:

We are running into the same things here.  The most successful of the partnerships is along the Blackfoot corridor where the ranchers (and this is from memory) stop irrigating at 400 CFS to protect the biomass of the river and the protected Bull Trout.  There is a proposal again to update this, but some of the legislature are dragging their feet because as someone else mentioned the environment is no longer just about the environment, but signals some political stance.

 

I agree the most prolific water users are the farmers, but there is no way a politician will make the call to cut their resources, whereas golf (the sport of the snotty and rich) is a perfect target for limiting water and making the stand against wasted water.

 

Now back to the financial implications, which is the ultimate driver of all decisions.  Alfalfa and hay put food in our bellies and pays the bills.  Adventure tourism, re. fishing (in my state) is the #1 or #2 business in the state and brings in a lot of money.  Golf?  Not so much.  That is why I think the courses will be hit early, and they in turn will respond by creating water hazards for non-potable irrigation water to level off the increase in costs for the watering.

 

I am surprised CO hasn't started something like this, because aren't you also in a drought?

Interesting how different local regulations can be. There are minimum flows established on some rivers in Colorado, but I find it surprising how many rivers that hold fish and attract anglers do not have any minimum flows regulations. I think it’s mainly because cutthroat are the protected fish here, and they don’t live in tailwaters. 
As far as drought, Colorado always fairs far better than the rest of the west. The Rocky Mountain Range from Northern Wyoming to Southern Colorado is much higher than anything else in the lower 48 so it always has the best snowpack. 

[DrSchteeve]

The cynic in me says Arizona doesn't publicly address water issues because growth - population and commercial - is the economic engine they don't want to slow down. Don't tell anyone who wants to move here that the issues are real and serious, else they may make a rational decision that this may not be where they want to live for 10-20-40 years. That said, if Las Vegas does make those issues important, it doesn't seem to have slowed growth there by much, as both places have had extraordinary growth in the past 20 years. Don't get me wrong - I love living in Arizona - but I would rather these important issues were being addressed now instead of kicking the can down the road.

 

[RSinSG]

11 hours ago, puttnforthe8 said:

The Singapore-Tuas Seawater Desalination plant is a seawater reverse osmosis plant finished in 2005 with a capacity of ~29 million gallons per day. The plant achieves an energy rate of ~16 kWh/kgal.  (Americans on average consume ~150 gallons of freshwater from municipal sources per person per day.)  So about 3kWh per person/per day

Probably 20 years ago I got the insider tour of the Carlsbad Desal plant. It’s adjacent to the Encina natural gas power plant and produces 5M gal per day. It was very interesting technology but even back then the employees said that large scale desal wasn’t feasible unless the plant was next to a nuclear power plant. As nuclear plants in the US are the enemy it’s not likely to happen, even though the technology of the new stations are much more safe than older ones. Like the interstate water compact, politics rules the day. 

[Nard_S]

6 hours ago, RSinSG said:

said that large scale desal wasn’t feasible unless the plant was next to a nuclear power plant.

Truth. I knew someone that worked to maintain them in Caribbean. Takes a lot of energy, and there's a lot of pressure involved apparently.  

[RobotDoctor]

Why there isn't a push to increase the desalination plants in the west is beyond me.  This would be a great source of water for the west and alleviate the shortage of water.  Having lived in Colorado most of my life where we have been in water restrictions for a couple decades, it never ceases to amaze me how much California, Nevada and Arizona wastes water and lacked water restrictions for years.  Huge water fountains at the fancy casinos in Las Vegas, while beautiful, is a huge waste of water and quite simply stupid.  Water evaporates quickly in the desert.  I get the energy issue and the polarization regarding nuclear energy.  While there is a risk in nuclear energy, countries like France has gravitated to be heavily dependent on nuclear.  Not to turn this into another shift from the original topic but desalination will be the eventual solution for the water issues out west and if energy is needed then a common sense solution will need to be found.  Unfortunately common sense seems to be lacking in areas of this country.

 

Now choosing to water golf courses compared to agriculture, golf is simply going to lose here.  As much as I love golf, as we all do, there is a greater importance in growing sustainable foods than playing a game.  It is about priorities for the greater good and golf isn't more important than eating.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by RobotDoctor

[canonlbp430]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:07 AM, RobotDoctor said:

Why there isn't a push to increase the desalination plants in the west is beyond me.  This would be a great source of water for the west and alleviate the shortage of water.  Having lived in Colorado most of my life where we have been in water restrictions for a couple decades, it never ceases to amaze me how much California, Nevada and Arizona wastes water and lacked water restrictions for years.  Huge water fountains at the fancy casinos in Las Vegas, while beautiful, is a huge waste of water and quite simply stupid.  Water evaporates quickly in the desert.  I get the energy issue and the polarization regarding nuclear energy.  While there is a risk in nuclear energy, countries like France has gravitated to be heavily dependent on nuclear.  Not to turn this into another shift from the original topic but desalination will be the eventual solution for the water issues out west and if energy is needed then a common sense solution will need to be found.  Unfortunately common sense seems to be lacking in areas of this country.

 

Now choosing to water golf courses compared to agriculture, golf is simply going to lose here.  As much as I love golf, as we all do, there is a greater importance in growing sustainable foods than playing a game.  It is about priorities for the greater good and golf isn't more important than eating.

 

There are groups trying to build more in California but they have been getting denied by local boards who vote on them for the last 20 years. 

[RobotDoctor]

5 hours ago, canonlbp430 said:

There are groups trying to build more in California but they have been getting denied by local boards who vote on them for the last 20 years. 

I don't get it.