USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[CDM]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:49 PM, Oostiesalbacore said:

I don’t think you understand what I’m driving at. I’m saying there should be trees that are tall enough to prevent hitting over them and tee boxes devised in such a way that you don’t get the option to tee it high and let it fly. 
I’m suggesting pic related but with even more bushes, shrubs, and hedges everywhere but the fairway. I’m proposing making the rough an actual hazard you want to avoid.
 

Every course, every day, should have US Open rough so you can’t bomb and gouge. 

 

Your point is 100% architecture design correct? If so I agree with you but time is a factor in all aspects.  Add a ton of trees OR just add length at the back by move tees?  We all know what is easier.   Better design wins every time, but that will take decades to come true if you add trees, etc. vs adding length to the tee box area over the course of 6 months.....  Ie: Augusta 

 

IMHO after watching it first hand the USGA is giving the full ratio on course length as it relates to how they pick a venue. I was able to see it last year first hand and the length aspect is a factor but some what full of BS....!   Joking but not, yes length is a key factor but that is only 1/3rd of it on course selection process.............

 

Our club was up/reviewed for some future top USGA events. Mens/Womens and Senior events so got to see what they critique. 

 

First off the USGA stated that length is "not the only part of the factor".  Which event and course design is.   I will give the USGA credit as the were clear there are a number of excellent old design courses they would love to play big events at but course design, then length and more so of a factor the event structure plays a huge part.

 

Length was not a factor in our aspect, it was the other sides.  The course only plays 7068 yards tipped and the "average" green is only 5000 sf roughly.  

 

Bottom line is we were not award the regular mens/womens events. Course was awarded some other top events though.

 

The factor well beyond length is the structure.  The course it 80+ yeasr old and when it was built it was not designed to anticpate it would need the extra space between holes / areas to hold 25K-30K plus fans/media/broadcasting, etc. per day.   *The club has space/land just not the way the USGA would want it configured for an event holding that many people since that is what it takes now. 

 

It was pretty clear to me that limiting the ball is needed in some asepcts, but more so that the USGA top events are 100% business plain and simple.  That revenue VS course factor (length) is more a factor in many cases. 

 

I agree the USGA getting back to the great old design courses would nice to see.  To do this I do think at the PRO level limting the ball will help in aspects so we as fans can get to see those courses. That noted though given the factors that really play out in selection ........ Length is not a big a factor, it is "can the course" hold the people we will get? Access?  Broadcasting" Etc.   

 

There some great old course that can, but they are not as "technical" designs, more straight forward, just not long. So limiting the ball makes sense in those regards IF that is what they are really after.

 

I do not agree limiting the ball for the "average" golfer makes sesne.  If you look back over the last 20 years.  All the new courses built, length has been 100% the design factor over great design.  Seems like most courses you see today (last 20 years) the tips are around 7500 yards.  Heck there are a few that hit right near 8000 yards now...! So for the average golfers whch I am one of htose that is just stupid 😁  

 

[CDM]

13 hours ago, MrDC said:

I live near Bethpage as well and it's a typical LI course, which is difficult not just because of length but trees, every FW is lined left and right with woods, and the greens are often surrounded by trees, if you miss bad you're not scrambling, you're dropping and taking a penalty. That would be a great way to challenge the distance with the pros but they can't do that much on the Tour because there would be nowhere for the fans to stand, and setup seats to watch, that's why we see more open courses and greens with collection areas on Tour, it provides space for fans to walk around and booths to sell stuff like food and drinks.

 

Exactly.  Our course is penal if you miss, pretty much anywhere tee to green you have to strike it well. Putting is a whole different asepct in its own.  Course was not awarded USGA events for exactly what you are noting, not enought space for fans, media, broadcasting setup, etc.  not the length aspect.......

Edited May 7 by CDM

[CDM]

1 hour ago, oughtaquit said:

I have a question about the effect of ball and/or club improvements on recreational players. I am a bad athlete and could never hit very far, but when I started playing in 1986 (at age 20), I don’t remember the disparity with my peers being as large as it is now. Have the equipment improvements advantaged better players more than they have worse players?  Or have I simply deteriorated at a faster rate 😳?  (The fact that I’ve spent my entire working life behind a desk might support the latter.) 

 

Tech is a factor but more so for the "Pro's" vs "Average players".   Handicaps have gone down too over the last 20 + years and tech is a big part of that.

 

I do notice the younger players are longer today then I was at their age from the new clubs / ball setup.     

 

The factor that is ingored and I notice is the current "average golfers"  have really poor short game 😂    

 

Sure there are a hand full of players (average) that know it and are working / practice short game and those are the ones that keep legit HDCP.  Then you have the  "I bombed that 320 yards... I hit it as far as the pro's"    Yet hit 5 out of 14 fairways too....LOL 

 

if you look at stats.   Good thread here on WRX

 

Distance off the tee has going up for the average players but they miss fairways at a much higher rate. Playing with the younger players if they had to get up and down from 40 yards they will take 3-4  85% of the time from that distance.  The reason they are 40 yards short of the green is they missed the fairway trying to BOMB IT...... HAHAHAHA   

 

Edit: the other factor not mentioned as much is course conditions.  Course conditions today on public course rival those of top courses 15-20 years ago.  Not sure how that factors though.  

Edited May 6 by CDM

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Not surprisingly you missed the point, again.

 

These 4-5 groups (16-20 golfers) spread out on this muni are impacting other golfers on the course.  They are behind one of these groups who is waiting for the short par fours and the par fives' greens to clear.  They might be getting hit into out in the fairway.  If these 4-5 groups have the distance but not the accuracy, they are waiting for them to hunt their ball in the rough or waiting for them to reload on the tee.

 

If they are a conscientious group that can drive it a long way, they may send a cart up to see if the coast is clear.  Now you are waiting for them to drive back to the tee box.

 

A longer in length game takes longer to play, for everyone.  Building courses that are 7500+ yards take longer to play even when played at shorter distances because of the distances between greens and tees.  That take more water, fertilizer, and other chemicals.  More length of irrigation system to run and further to pump the water.  More cost to maintain and more cost back to the golfer to pay. 

 

BTW maybe this is off topic, but one of my golf/GolfWRX pet peeves is that a lot of people jump on the "X causes slow play!" bandwagon if for whatever reason they don't like X. I personally don't buy it. Slow play is caused by slow players. It's not caused by long hitters. It's not caused by high caps. It's caused by people who couldn't get out of their own way even if they were playing to scratch with an average of 220 off the tee. These are the same people who wait for the waitress to show up at their table before they actually think to look at the menu, and drive 5 mph under the speed limit in the left lane on the highway. They're just slow. 

 

That said, I don't seem to run into any of these long hitters out there on the typical courses I play. I'm not particularly long (250 off the tee on a good one), and when paired with randoms I am almost always the longest hitter in the group, and on the rare occasions I'm not, it's not them outhitting me by 50 yards. Maybe I don't play with golfers who are good enough or on courses that are elite enough, but like @Simpsonia I find it hard to believe that on most courses you're going to have 16-20 players out there that are bombing it 300. 

 

There are some arguments that are decent in support of a rollback, but I think slow play isn't one of them. 

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

 

How is it that statistically the longest hitters (say 290+) make up only 0.5% of the golfing population (from Arccos data reports), yet are somehow putting up 4-5 groups every round, every day, on every course in America?

 

You will need to ask the person who originally used the number 4-5 groups.  I only quoted them.

 

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

 

So either you're misrepresenting the prevalence of the longest hitters, or those who are causing these backups aren't truly the long hitters. Perhaps these misguided golfers causing backups by always waiting for the green to clear are the same guys who play the wrong tees, and aren't actually long hitters. Do you think that the guys playing the wrong tees and causing backups are going to suddenly change their behavior of forcing groups to wait if they lose a few yards off their already short shots? 

 

Barking at wrong tree.

[betarhoalphadelta]

5 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

course x 6000 yards

course y 7000 yards

 

everything the same. Hcaps, equipment, course setup etc

 

which takes longer? 

 

Same for me. I'm not playing the 7,000 yard tees. I'm most comfortable in the 6000-6500 range. 

 

Just as I don't see many players longer than me often (and I'm not long), I don't see players playing the tips at my regular courses either. So it's not often that I see hacks playing from 7,000+ slowing it down. 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

9 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Same for me. I'm not playing the 7,000 yard tees. I'm most comfortable in the 6000-6500 range. 

 

Just as I don't see many players longer than me often (and I'm not long), I don't see players playing the tips at my regular courses either. So it's not often that I see hacks playing from 7,000+ slowing it down. 

 

Exactly.  A better query might be: What takes longer?  a) a foursome of 20hcps from ~6,000yds, or b) a foursome of scratch players playing from ~7,000yds.  

 

I've only been playing for about 35 years, but I go back and forth on that one.  On one hand, you have the 20s hitting it more often, on the other, you have the scratches adhering to all the rules and grinding out four footers that would be gimmies in a lot of the "duffers groups".  There's no, "hey just drop one by mine" type stuff. 

 

Anecdotally, the slowest rounds I've ever encountered were all in college, and almost all under 7,000 yards.  One tournament in North San Diego County, we had a 7am shotgun the first day to get in 36 before dark.  By sunset (around 7:00pm), we had played 23 holes.  That was an anomaly because the tournament directors had over-stacked the course, but you get the idea.  In all tournaments, you could routinely encounter a situation where you hit the green and didn't hit your putt for 10+ minutes because other guys were grinding and deciding what wedge to chip with.  I guess my point is, those types of players don't always "turn it off" for casual rounds.  Just my experience. 🤷‍♂️

[North Butte]

58 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

course x 6000 yards

course y 7000 yards

 

everything the same. Hcaps, equipment, course setup etc

 

which takes longer? 

The round with slow players in front of me takes longer. There are threesomes out there right now who would take 4-1/2 hours to play a 4,500 yard course. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

22 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

Exactly.  A better query might be: What takes longer?  a) a foursome of 20hcps from ~6,000yds, or b) a foursome of scratch players playing from ~7,000yds.  

 

I've only been playing for about 35 years, but I go back and forth on that one.  On one hand, you have the 20s hitting it more often, on the other, you have the scratches adhering to all the rules and grinding out four footers that would be gimmies in a lot of the "duffers groups".  There's no, "hey just drop one by mine" type stuff. 

 

 

Yep, and also dovetails with my point above to smashy... Slow play isn't "caused" by longer courses. It's caused by slow players. And I actually think it's irrespective of handicap. I've seen fast low-caps and slow high-caps, and fast high-caps and slow low-caps. 

 

According to Golf Digest, "time par" on the PGA Tour is apparently 4:45 for threesomes, and 4 hours for twosomes. And that's apparently with 11 minute tee time spacing. For me, on a course stuffed to the gills with hacker foursomes and 10- or 9-minute tee time spacing on a weekend morning, if the round takes more than 4:30 it's an anomaly. 

 

The amount of time the players take to get around a course depends much more on the players and their situations than it does on the length of the course or the skill of the player. 

[smashdn]

20 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yep, and also dovetails with my point above to smashy... Slow play isn't "caused" by longer courses. It's caused by slow players. And I actually think it's irrespective of handicap. I've seen fast low-caps and slow high-caps, and fast high-caps and slow low-caps. 

 

According to Golf Digest, "time par" on the PGA Tour is apparently 4:45 for threesomes, and 4 hours for twosomes. And that's apparently with 11 minute tee time spacing. For me, on a course stuffed to the gills with hacker foursomes and 10- or 9-minute tee time spacing on a weekend morning, if the round takes more than 4:30 it's an anomaly. 

 

The amount of time the players take to get around a course depends much more on the players and their situations than it does on the length of the course or the skill of the player. 

 

https://books.google.com/books/about/Out_of_Time.html?id=f9lBzQEACAAJ

 

I seem to recall Yates said it is about 50-50 player behaviors and course controlled aspects.

 

The "time par" aspect you speak of is established with little regard for player behavior and consists almost exclusively of length, including length between holes.  It was coined by Yates to allow courses a baseline or minimum time it takes to play the course, irrespective of the speed of the player.  He found courses were arbitrarily expecting four hour rounds despite the course itself taking more than four hours to traverse due to distance and a brisker-than-typical playing pace.  Couple that with procedures that further slowed play and you had even longer rounds.

 

Ultimately though what he found was it was not the time it takes to play a round that golfers had issue with, it was the pace or lack of flow that they perceived as a slow round.  ie a 4 hr and 20 minute round could be perceived as much shorter and "okay" provided there was no between shot waiting and the flow around the course was unencumbered.  And the converse, a sub 4hr round could be a slog if there were many instances of waiting.  Satisfaction is a result of proper flow around the course, not purely time.

 

So players waiting to hit their drives, hit their seconds into par fives and potentially on par fours that are within reach are not only experiencing the disrupted flow, but they are also the cause of the disrupted flow felt by others on the course.  (Plus the inherent routing issues and golfer management issues that might be present that lead to longer rounds and delayed ending of rounds.)

 

Courses thinking that they can speed up play or get more rounds through in a day with more frequent tee times (shorter intervals) also leads to the problem of longer rounds and hampered flow.  It seems counterintuitive on the surface but you do not want groups playing as fast as they can off the first tee right into the rear of the preceding group.  The starter maintaining the positioning of groups on the course is critical, both getting groups off the tee when needed and delaying them appropriately as well.

[betarhoalphadelta]

18 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I seem to recall Yates said it is about 50-50 player behaviors and course controlled aspects.

 

 

Fair. I've also repeatedly heard the tee time spacing is a major factor. There are certainly instances where you have a course full of people who COULD play faster that are being forced into slow play based upon course management/setup decisions. 

 

My point is that if you are out there on a public course with a packed tee sheet full of foursomes, the fastest you can get around is probably determined by the course management/setup. On the other hand, any group on that course that falls behind the group in front of them is due to the players in that group being slow for reasons that would be there no matter what tees they're playing or their skill level. 

 

And that goes to what I responded to miles. If a course has tees from 4600-7300 yards, my group sure as hell isn't playing the 7300 yard boxes. We don't have the distance OR the skill to make that an enjoyable day. IMHO if players have the distance and skill to take that on, I would certainly HOPE they understand golf etiquette well enough to know to not let that added distance they're walking affect PoP for the players behind them. If they can't keep up with the group in front of them, they shouldn't be playing the tips. 

[Simpsonia]

8 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

https://books.google.com/books/about/Out_of_Time.html?id=f9lBzQEACAAJ

 

I seem to recall Yates said it is about 50-50 player behaviors and course controlled aspects.

 

The "time par" aspect you speak of is established with little regard for player behavior and consists almost exclusively of length, including length between holes.  It was coined by Yates to allow courses a baseline or minimum time it takes to play the course, irrespective of the speed of the player.  He found courses were arbitrarily expecting four hour rounds despite the course itself taking more than four hours to traverse due to distance and a brisker-than-typical playing pace.  Couple that with procedures that further slowed play and you had even longer rounds.

 

Ultimately though what he found was it was not the time it takes to play a round that golfers had issue with, it was the pace or lack of flow that they perceived as a slow round.  ie a 4 hr and 20 minute round could be perceived as much shorter and "okay" provided there was no between shot waiting and the flow around the course was unencumbered.  And the converse, a sub 4hr round could be a slog if there were many instances of waiting.  Satisfaction is a result of proper flow around the course, not purely time.

 

So players waiting to hit their drives, hit their seconds into par fives and potentially on par fours that are within reach are not only experiencing the disrupted flow, but they are also the cause of the disrupted flow felt by others on the course.  (Plus the inherent routing issues and golfer management issues that might be present that lead to longer rounds and delayed ending of rounds.)

 

 

I'm really struggling to figure out your point here. From the sounds of it, you make it seem as if you think par 4s should NEVER be drivable, and par 5s should NEVER be reachable in 2 or else it completely ruins the flow of play. And as a corrollary, you think that somehow there are enough of these long hitters out there that are routinely driving Par 4s and reaching 5's in two, that it is causing massive amounts of slow play across the country? 

 

And my response would be in line with others that it's not a long hitter issue, its a slow player issue because the number of people who can actually routinely drive par 4s and reach par 5s in two is massively lower than those who are routinely waiting for the green to clear, ie slow players. 

[smashdn]

39 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

I'm really struggling to figure out your point here. From the sounds of it, you make it seem as if you think par 4s should NEVER be drivable, and par 5s should NEVER be reachable in 2 or else it completely ruins the flow of play.

 

When the course is designed that way it is perfectly fine to have both driveable par fours and fives reachable in two.  The hang-up becomes when the course wasn't designed that way or more accurately the tee time intervals do not take that into account.  (Which could be the result of the fact some holes, when designed, would have never been conceived to be reachable in one or two shots.)

 

The order in which the holes and the types of holes come in the round is a critical component of the time par and the flow of play.  I can't explain it any better than Bill Yates did.  If you haven't read his book I encourage it highly.

 

39 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

And as a corrollary, you think that somehow there are enough of these long hitters out there that are routinely driving Par 4s and reaching 5's in two, that it is causing massive amounts of slow play across the country? 

 

How many slow groups does it take to mess up flow for a day on a course?

 

39 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

And my response would be in line with others that it's not a long hitter issue, its a slow player issue because the number of people who can actually routinely drive par 4s and reach par 5s in two is massively lower than those who are routinely waiting for the green to clear, ie slow players. 

 

You are stuck in that one aspect, the [attempting to] reach greens in under par.  That is only one way that a player with sufficient length playing on a course of insufficient length could impact play.

 

Find you one of these "bro golfers" that can pump it out there 300 plus but only hit the fairway with it 1/10 times.  He isn't throttling back for position.  (In fact SG tells him not to right?)  His ball is 300 yards down there and 30 yards deep in the right rough but his buddy "marked where it went in at" so it should only take a few extra minutes for them to find it and him to pitch back into play.

[Simpsonia]

36 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

How many slow groups does it take to mess up flow for a day on a course?

 

 

Completely dependent on the course tee time spacing. This has literally nothing to do with distance and everything to do with course management. If it just takes one group waiting for a green to clear to mess up an entire tee sheet, well lemme tell you that course has bigger issues. That's not something anybody should be encouraging or even concerned about. 

 

38 minutes ago, smashdn said:

You are stuck in that one aspect, the [attempting to] reach greens in under par.  That is only one way that a player with sufficient length playing on a course of insufficient length could impact play.

 

Find you one of these "bro golfers" that can pump it out there 300 plus but only hit the fairway with it 1/10 times.  He isn't throttling back for position.  (In fact SG tells him not to right?)  His ball is 300 yards down there and 30 yards deep in the right rough but his buddy "marked where it went in at" so it should only take a few extra minutes for them to find it and him to pitch back into play.

 

And you seem stuck on this fraction of a percent of real actual long hitters that you think are somehow everywhere all at once. My guess is that your issue with these "bro golfers" is not that they are in any way shape or form long hitters, but that they are in reality just slow players who most likely think they hit it further than they actually do. It has nothing to do with distance, and everything to do with lack of etiquette. And, any attempts to police etiquette through equipment rollbacks is unlikely to ever work, at all. 

[North Butte]

43 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Find you one of these "bro golfers" that can pump it out there 300 plus but only hit the fairway with it 1/10 times.  He isn't throttling back for position.  (In fact SG tells him not to right?)  His ball is 300 yards down there and 30 yards deep in the right rough but his buddy "marked where it went in at" so it should only take a few extra minutes for them to find it and him to pitch back into play.

It has been my observation, that situation will be handled by driving around in circles in a cart for 3-4 minutes hoping to find it in the rough (when it's actually 30 yards into the trees) then dropping a ball "where it went in". Which is to say 3-4 minutes totally wasted and then pretending to finish the hole with a bogey or whatever. Lather, rinse, repeat for four "bros" for eighteen holes.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

How many slow groups does it take to mess up flow for a day on a course?

 

 

If a group is routinely waiting for the fairway or green to clear, they're not a slow group. They're clearly keeping pace with the group in front of them. If they were a slow group, the group in front of them would be long gone and they wouldn't have to wait for them to clear. 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

7 minutes ago, North Butte said:

It has been my observation, that situation will be handled by driving around in circles in a cart for 3-4 minutes hoping to find it in the rough (when it's actually 30 yards into the trees) then dropping a ball "where it went in". Which is to say 3-4 minutes totally wasted and then pretending to finish the hole with a bogey or whatever. Lather, rinse, repeat for four "bros" for eighteen holes.

Haha!  My home club has lot water around the greens.  One of the biggest killers (outside of just being slow) is the "old heads" fishing for bonus balls in the ponds after their groups have putted out. It's been mentioned, but it never stops.  They'll say it's backed up so we can't go anywhere, but they should at least clear the green so the group behind can approach, the group behind that can tee off, and so on.  Those types also LOVE to make sure they have the scorecard correct at the green they just played instead of the next tee.  Heads tilted back, fingers counting in the air, etc. standing on the green.  Goes back what people have mentioned that it's about the players; not as much the course layout.    

[Archimedes65]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

BTW maybe this is off topic, but one of my golf/GolfWRX pet peeves is that a lot of people jump on the "X causes slow play!" bandwagon if for whatever reason they don't like X. I personally don't buy it. Slow play is caused by slow players. It's not caused by long hitters. It's not caused by high caps. It's caused by people who couldn't get out of their own way even if they were playing to scratch with an average of 220 off the tee. 

 

Amen brother!  Slow play comes in all shapes, sizes, and handicaps.  Some of the slowest players at our club are the low handicaps.  Drives me nuts playing with them.  There was a guy in my foursome a while who was just glacial.  I finally told him to feel free to go ahead and start taking his practice swings and waggles while I was hitting, and start reading his putts when I was putting out.  Eventually, I just started putting out and walking off the greens while he was making his sixth read from a different angle on a dead straight six footer.

[Archimedes65]

47 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

Haha!  My home club has lot water around the greens.  One of the biggest killers (outside of just being slow) is the "old heads" fishing for bonus balls in the ponds after their groups have putted out. It's been mentioned, but it never stops.  They'll say it's backed up so we can't go anywhere, but they should at least clear the green so the group behind can approach, the group behind that can tee off, and so on.  Those types also LOVE to make sure they have the scorecard correct at the green they just played instead of the next tee.  Heads tilted back, fingers counting in the air, etc. standing on the green.  Goes back what people have mentioned that it's about the players; not as much the course layout.    

 

Luckily our club has a rule that you are not allowed to fish ANY balls out of the ponds, regardless of where they land.  If not, I’m sure that many of the older members who would have those awful ball retrievers sticking out of their bags.  Now if they could just figure out a way to get the 68 year old 25 handicaps to not whip out the range finder to shoot the flag from 60 yards…when they’re already laying five on a par four…

[Ashley Schaeffer]

17 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Luckily our club has a rule that you are not allowed to fish ANY balls out of the ponds, regardless of where they land.  If not, I’m sure that many of the older members who would have those awful ball retrievers sticking out of their bags.  Now if they could just figure out a way to get the 68 year old 25 handicaps to not whip out the range finder to shoot the flag from 60 yards…when they’re already laying five on a par four…

 

That's a great rule.  I'm not sure many of the retirees would follow it at our club.  A few of them have the ball retrievers that are like two feet wide with twelve-foot telescoping handles.  They sit there and dredge the bottom of the ponds like commercial fishermen, get a haul, sort them out, and leave the rejects on the bank before making sure Bob had an 8 not a 7.  Then, and only then, do they clear the green so the group behind can hit their approaches.  Like I mentioned, when called out on it, they try to justify it if the group ahead is still on the tee.  

[Pnwpingi210]

15 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

That's a great rule.  I'm not sure many of the retirees would follow it at our club.  A few of them have the ball retrievers that are like two feet wide with twelve-foot telescoping handles.  They sit there and dredge the bottom of the ponds like commercial fishermen, get a haul, sort them out, and leave the rejects on the bank before making sure Bob had an 8 not a 7.  Then, and only then, do they clear the green so the group behind can hit their approaches.  Like I mentioned, when called out on it, they try to justify it if the group ahead is still on the tee.  

That demographic of golfers is already using a nerfed ball 😂

[bekgolf]

18 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

That's a great rule.  I'm not sure many of the retirees would follow it at our club.  A few of them have the ball retrievers that are like two feet wide with twelve-foot telescoping handles.  They sit there and dredge the bottom of the ponds like commercial fishermen, get a haul, sort them out, and leave the rejects on the bank before making sure Bob had an 8 not a 7.  Then, and only then, do they clear the green so the group behind can hit their approaches.  Like I mentioned, when called out on it, they try to justify it if the group ahead is still on the tee.  

 

It's like an addiction, they can't walk anywhere without looking for balls.  I think they enjoy picking balls more than they like playing golf.

[Archimedes65]

2 hours ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

That's a great rule.  I'm not sure many of the retirees would follow it at our club.  A few of them have the ball retrievers that are like two feet wide with twelve-foot telescoping handles.  They sit there and dredge the bottom of the ponds like commercial fishermen, get a haul, sort them out, and leave the rejects on the bank before making sure Bob had an 8 not a 7.  Then, and only then, do they clear the green so the group behind can hit their approaches.  Like I mentioned, when called out on it, they try to justify it if the group ahead is still on the tee.  

 

My head would explode. And then I’d just hit into them.  You clear the green, regardless of the state of the next tee box.

 

We have some self absorbed members who like to dawdle around the 18th green sometimes, rather than clearing out and driving off.  They think because they’re members in a country club, they’re entitled to take their sweet time even though people are waiting.  If they really want an up close look at my approach shot, I’m more than happy to oblige.

[Oostiesalbacore]

Reroute the holes to prevent any straight shot from being longer than 275. Less obtuse angled doglegs and more acute angles would keep distances down by forcing certain shots to a distance rather than favoring bomb and gouge. 

[Chunkitgood]

4 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

My head would explode. And then I’d just hit into them.  You clear the green, regardless of the state of the next tee box.

 

We have some self absorbed members who like to dawdle around the 18th green sometimes, rather than clearing out and driving off.  They think because they’re members in a country club, they’re entitled to take their sweet time even though people are waiting.  If they really want an up close look at my approach shot, I’m more than happy to oblige.

They probably know you and do it to yank your chain.

[gvogel]

19 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yep, and also dovetails with my point above to smashy... Slow play isn't "caused" by longer courses. It's caused by slow players. And I actually think it's irrespective of handicap. I've seen fast low-caps and slow high-caps, and fast high-caps and slow low-caps. 

 

According to Golf Digest, "time par" on the PGA Tour is apparently 4:45 for threesomes, and 4 hours for twosomes. And that's apparently with 11 minute tee time spacing. For me, on a course stuffed to the gills with hacker foursomes and 10- or 9-minute tee time spacing on a weekend morning, if the round takes more than 4:30 it's an anomaly. 

 

The amount of time the players take to get around a course depends much more on the players and their situations than it does on the length of the course or the skill of the player. 

I have seen a couple of doctors who wanted to play early and go to work take less than 2-1/2 hours to play 18.  They knew what they were doing.

[gvogel]

15 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Luckily our club has a rule that you are not allowed to fish ANY balls out of the ponds, regardless of where they land.  If not, I’m sure that many of the older members who would have those awful ball retrievers sticking out of their bags.  Now if they could just figure out a way to get the 68 year old 25 handicaps to not whip out the range finder to shoot the flag from 60 yards…when they’re already laying five on a par four…

As a former 68 year old whose wedge play was dialed in, I often shot the flag from 60 yards.  Sometimes it was hard for me to tell if it was 50 yards or 70 yards, and those distances required different wedges or different swings.  But on the whole, I am a fast player.

[Ty_Webb]

14 minutes ago, gvogel said:

As a former 68 year old

 

So, "a 69 year old"? 🤣

[Oostiesalbacore]

Why not shorten the courses to 2000 yards and play with a ping pong ball or shuttlecock?

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

So, "a 69 year old"? 🤣

Ha Ha, 71 and my wedge play is not dialed in anymore.  I just hit and hope now.