Handicaps and Slope

[BigJM300]

My buddy and I are both 7 handicaps. The only difference is that he belongs to a club and I play muni tracks. My question to all is that are we the same handicap? He constantly plays a course that is rated 132 compared to the courses I play that are in the 120s. So when we play the “easier” courses he kills me but he insists that we are the same handicap and that no strokes are given. Just curious what the golf world thinks on this topic. 

[James Joseph]

They say it’s suppose to work out at the end but I still think you have an advantage if you play at a tougher course. 

[Golferpaul]

I assume when you say, "7 handicap" you mean "7 handicap index".

 

Theoretically, it shouldn't matter.  A seven index is the same on every course.  It could be a mental thing. Or that your game is more suited to easier courses which are usually a lot shorter.

[North Butte]

Look up both your COURSE HANDICAPS (not handicap index) on the GHIN app for the course and tees you are playing that day. Then everything will be accounted for. Your handicap, his handicap, the course rating, slope rating and par. It will all be properly included in the course handicaps.

[rogolf]

16 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

I assume when you say, "7 handicap" you mean "7 handicap index".

 

Theoretically, it shouldn't matter.  A seven index is the same on every course.  It could be a mental thing. Or that your game is more suited to easier courses which are usually a lot shorter.

That’s not quite true. Handicap index is adjusted to a course handicap using the course’s slope. And handicap index is always expressed to one decimal place. 

[jvincent]

On 4/21/2023 at 6:59 AM, BigJM300 said:

 So when we play the “easier” courses he kills me but he insists that we are the same handicap and that no strokes are given. Just curious what the golf world thinks on this topic. 

 

There is a saying that "some handicaps travel better than others".  

 

The course rating system isn't perfect so if you play a course that suits (or doesn't suit) your strengths when you go somewhere else then you can score better (or worse) than you might expect.

[Newby]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:59 AM, BigJM300 said:

My buddy and I are both 7 handicaps. The only difference is that he belongs to a club and I play muni tracks. My question to all is that are we the same handicap? He constantly plays a course that is rated 132 compared to the courses I play that are in the 120s. So when we play the “easier” courses he kills me but he insists that we are the same handicap and that no strokes are given. Just curious what the golf world thinks on this topic. 

It would seem that you are both confusing the title of what you are calling 'handicaps'.

I would guess that as you play on different courses the 7 is in fact the Course Handicap that you use at your own courses. I'm not in the US but I believe you can get your Handicap Index from the GHIN

This is the starting point for determining what you use when playing at any course

 

However, you do need to establish what your individual Handicap Index is. 

The handicap you play off depends on the course and tees you are playing.

To determine your Course Handicaps you need to use the following calculation.

Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope / 113) + (Course Rating - Par)

 

If you are playing strokeplay you both play off 95% of your Course Handicaps. 

If you are playing matchplay you play off the difference between your Course Handicaps. 

These are called Playing Handicaps

[Augster]

38 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Look up both your COURSE HANDICAPS (not handicap index) on the GHIN app for the course and tees you are playing that day. Then everything will be accounted for. Your handicap, his handicap, the course rating, slope rating and par. It will all be properly included in the course handicaps.

This. 
 

Just because he’s a “7” at his course and you’re a “7” at your course doesn’t mean you’re a 7 at every course or from every tee. 
 

He could be a 5.9 index and still a 7 at his course. You could be an 8.9 and be a 7 at your course. 
 

Yet, if you both play off 7 when you go somewhere neutral, because you’re both “7’s”, you’ll get killed. 
 

For the sake of argument, let’s say both of you have similar indexes and are both actual 7 CH’s from the tees you play together. No strokes. 
 

If he’s a more consistent player, that is, less variability through his 20 scores, and you are a less consistent player, lots of variability through your 20 scores, he’s likely going to beat you more often than not even though you’re the same cap. 
 

If he had 20 straight 79’s and it made him a 7 cap, and you had eight 90’s, four 84’s , a 75, a 76, two 77’s, a 79 and an 81 an 82 and an 83 to make up your last 20, you’ll get beat unless you are playing a keeper round. Because of his consistency, his keeper rounds are about as good as his non-keepers. Whereas your non-keepers are crazy bad compared to your keepers. 
 

In other words, even within players with the same index, the more consistent player will have an advantage. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Augster

[Newby]

30 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Look up both your COURSE HANDICAPS (not handicap index) on the GHIN app for the course and tees you are playing that day. Then everything will be accounted for. Your handicap, his handicap, the course rating, slope rating and par. It will all be properly included in the course handicaps.

Surely you look up your individual HANDICAP INDEX on the GHIN app and then go through the rest of the process. Or does the GHIN not work that way?

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Surely you look up your individual HANDICAP INDEX on the GHIN app and then go through the rest of the process. Or does the GHIN not work that way?

The GHIN app lets you enter you own name and the names of any others (GHIN subscribers) you're playing with along with the names of the course and the tee each person is playing. Then it gives you the Course Handicap for everyone whose name you entered.

 

It also has an option for giving a Playing Handicap which I've never used but I think has something to do with using percentages for various team formats and such. Not sure how that part works.
 

But anyway, there is no "rest of the process". You look up literal Course Handicaps for everyone right there in the app. Of course it also shows you the Handicap Indices for each person (along with your score history and other stats). 

[davep043]

15 hours ago, Newby said:

If you are playing strokeplay you both play off 95% of your Course Handicaps. 

If you are playing matchplay you play off the difference between your Course Handicaps. 

These are called Playing Handicaps

I know we are in different parts of the world, so this might not be the same there.  In USGA areas, Interpretation C/1 in Appendix C to the Handicapping Rules says:

"The recommended handicap allowance for all individual stroke play formats of play is set at 95% for medium-sized field net events, of at least 30 players. For a field size of fewer than 30 players, the recommendation would be to increase the handicap allowance to 100%."

In the OP, it sounds like this is just a competition between the two players, so 100% would apply for both Match and Stroke Play.  And if both are nominally 7 handicaps (whatever that means), its unlikely that using 95% would make much of a difference.

[North Butte]

8 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I know we are in different parts of the world, so this might not be the same there.  In USGA areas, Interpretation C/1 in Appendix C to the Handicapping Rules says:

"The recommended handicap allowance for all individual stroke play formats of play is set at 95% for medium-sized field net events, of at least 30 players. For a field size of fewer than 30 players, the recommendation would be to increase the handicap allowance to 100%."

In the OP, it sounds like this is just a competition between the two players, so 100% would apply for both Match and Stroke Play.  And if both are nominally 7 handicaps (whatever that means), its unlikely that using 95% would make much of a difference.

Even the (stroke play) Club Championship at my club has around 12-20 players per flight. I guess that's why it's typically done with 100% handicaps. 

 

[Newby]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:59 AM, BigJM300 said:

My buddy and I are both 7 handicaps. 

Do you mean Handicap Index or Course Handicap (ie the one you play off)?

[Golferpaul]

17 hours ago, rogolf said:

That’s not quite true. Handicap index is adjusted to a course handicap using the course’s slope. And handicap index is always expressed to one decimal place. 

He probably meant 7.0.  I thought he was saying they both had a 7.0 index which means they have the same skill level.

 

 

[davep043]

On 4/21/2023 at 6:59 AM, BigJM300 said:

My buddy and I are both 7 handicaps. The only difference is that he belongs to a club and I play muni tracks. My question to all is that are we the same handicap? He constantly plays a course that is rated 132 compared to the courses I play that are in the 120s. So when we play the “easier” courses he kills me but he insists that we are the same handicap and that no strokes are given. Just curious what the golf world thinks on this topic. 

Perhaps you could return and enlighten us all.  Is 7 your course handicap, your Handicap Index, or something else?  The answer to that might make our responses a bit more meaningful, right now we're all just guessing.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

Do you mean Handicap Index or Course Handicap (ie the one you play off)?

 

Big Jim asked the question and hasn't been seen since.

Edited April 30, 2023 by nsxguy

[SNIPERBBB]

Slope doesnt have quite as much effect on your cap that the course rating does(at least for those in single-digit land). If you both play a 70 course rated course but your buddies course is rated 130 vs your 120. His higher scores wont inflate his cap as much as  yours will when you play poorly.

 

As for actual comparisons there's just too much volatility to really say. Who knows when your courses were last rated so numbers could be really out of date. IE my home course has had some changes in the last 10-15 years that should have drastically changed the ratings.

[Newby]

8 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

IE my home course has had some changes in the last 10-15 years that should have drastically changed the ratings.

In this country clubs are obliged to advise the authorities if/when course changes are made which may affect the CR.

[rogolf]

58 minutes ago, Newby said:

In this country clubs are obliged to advise the authorities if/when course changes are made which may affect the CR.

Same applies in North America. There is also an “elapsed time” since the last rating, can’t recall if it’s 5 years or 10 years. This is the Association’s responsibility.