Opposite side of lateral water hazard

[hammersia]

My rubbish shot sailed over a lateral hazard red stakes then rolled backwards back into the hazard having first cross the Hazard on the green side. Can I drop where it first crossed the Hazard not where it lasts crossed the Hazard on the opposite side?

 

[Colin L]

Being a 2023 shot, it sailed over a penalty area a newish term which includes areas that used to be called water hazards.   But the answer is the same: your reference point for taking relief is where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. Rule 17.1d

[Mr. Bean]

And no dropping closer to the hole than the reference point.

[Newby]

See the Second diagram here.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=17&subrulenum=1

[antip]

The Rule permits you to drop 'behind' this red penalty area - but only on the backward extension of the line drawn from the pin through the reference point - in your case the point of last crossing the edge of the PA on the green side in your OP.

 

If the answers to date aren't working for you, bring any further questions back. 

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, hammersia said:

My rubbish shot sailed over a lateral hazard red stakes then rolled backwards back into the hazard having first cross the Hazard on the green side. Can I drop where it first crossed the Hazard not where it lasts crossed the Hazard on the opposite side?

 

 

Nope.

[nsxguy]

By-the-by, since red PAs were mentioned,,,,,,,,,

 

Apparently Mickelson (yesterday) hit one off the tee into a lateral red PA.

 

Mickelson Ruling 5/19/23

 

Not clear on the exact issue but it sounds like he picked the spot last crossed (& referred to it as "line of sight" ), picked his reference point back on the line, and then measured a CL to the left to get on the fairway.

 

It seems an official was right nearby and corrected Mickelson to drop directly ON the line and THAT was the correct drop as of 2023.

 

I confess I didn't look over the Rules changes for 2023.

 

Just curious as I don't remember exactly but prior to this year the reference point was on the line and created a semi-circle relief area & the ball could be dropped anywhere within the relief area.

 

But NOW the ball must be dropped ON the line and can roll up to 1 CL in ANY direction, even closer to the hole ?

 

Is that correct ? TIA

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by nsxguy

[hammersia]

Ok cheers everyone seems clear enough.

 

Slightly interesting case because dropping where it last crossed is where the committee has decided is impractical to drop. No worries.

[nsxguy]

24 minutes ago, hammersia said:

Ok cheers everyone seems clear enough.

 

Slightly interesting case because dropping where it last crossed is where the committee has decided is impractical to drop. No worries.

 

You'll never get away with that.

 

What's "impractical" about it and where does the committee now say TO drop it from ? They must have said something. Did they establish a drop area ?

 

According to the Rules I don't see where you could drop it from where you asked (the FIRST place it crossed).

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

By-the-by, since red PAs were mentioned,,,,,,,,,

 

Apparently Mickelson (yesterday) hit one off the tee into a lateral red PA.

 

Mickelson Ruling 5/19/23

 

Not clear on the exact issue but it sounds like he picked the spot last crossed (& referred to it as "line of sight" ), picked his reference point back on the line, and then measured a CL to the left to get on the fairway.

 

It seems an official was right nearby and corrected Mickelson to drop directly ON the line and THAT was the correct drop as of 2023.

 

I confess I didn't look over the Rules changes for 2023.

 

Just curious as I don't remember exactly but prior to this year the reference point was on the line and created a semi-circle relief area & the ball could be dropped anywhere within the relief area.

 

But NOW the ball must be dropped ON the line and can roll up to 1 CL in ANY direction, even closer to the hole ?

 

Is that correct ? TIA

 

 

 

 

 

If things went as you described then Phil played from a wrong place. But I believe things did not go that way.

[QEight]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

If things went as you described then Phil played from a wrong place. But I believe things did not go that way.

He dropped on the "flag line from the crossing point", so it was ok. He was going to drop 1CL to the side.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, QEight said:

He dropped on the "flag line from the crossing point", so it was ok. He was going to drop 1CL to the side.

It can be confusing….he may have mixed it up with the unplayable drop where you go back on the line going from pin and ball and get a club length on either side of line…

 

or did they amend that as well?

[hammersia]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You'll never get away with that.

 

What's "impractical" about it and where does the committee now say TO drop it from ? They must have said something. Did they establish a drop area ?

 

According to the Rules I don't see where you could drop it from where you asked (the FIRST place it crossed).

I was just quoting from part of the explanation of what a lateral hazard is according to the rules, not specifically what out committee had said.

 

It so happens in our specific case it would be impractical - it's a big pond and would take ages. But I know of plenty of laterals that wouldn't seem "impractical", difficult yes, but not "impractical". 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, QEight said:

He dropped on the "flag line from the crossing point", so it was ok. He was going to drop 1CL to the side.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

If things went as you described then Phil played from a wrong place. But I believe things did not go that way.

 

How is that different from Qeight's description ?

[nsxguy]

21 minutes ago, hammersia said:

I was just quoting from part of the explanation of what a lateral hazard is according to the rules, not specifically what out committee had said.

 

It so happens in our specific case it would be impractical - it's a big pond and would take ages. But I know of plenty of laterals that wouldn't seem "impractical", difficult yes, but not "impractical". 

 

OK, fwiw, it seems like that would/should be a YELLOW Penalty Area but whatev - soon they'll all be red.

 

But since you can't drop laterally on the green side of the PA because it's impractical, where DO you drop ?

[rogolf]

9 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

OK, fwiw, it seems like that would/should be a YELLOW Penalty Area but whatev - soon they'll all be red.

 

But since you can't drop laterally on the green side of the PA because it's impractical, where DO you drop ?

You can drop “laterally” on the green side of a red penalty area IF the ball last crossed the edge of the red penalty area on the green side AND there is a spot outside the penalty area within two club- lengths of the spot where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area that is not closer to the hole than the spot where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

But since you can't drop laterally on the green side of the PA because it's impractical, where DO you drop ?

You can play from where you last played (S&D). Back on a line from the hole thru' the point where it last crossed the margin or with luck the club may have provided a Dropping Zone. All at the cost of a penalty stroke.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

You can drop “laterally” on the green side of a red penalty area IF the ball last crossed the edge of the red penalty area on the green side AND there is a spot outside the penalty area within two club- lengths of the spot where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area that is not closer to the hole than the spot where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. 

 

1 minute ago, Newby said:

You can play from where you last played (S&D). Back on a line from the hole thru' the point where it last crossed the margin or with luck the club may have provided a Dropping Zone. All at the cost of a penalty stroke.

 

Thanks gents. I understand the different options.

 

But my post was directed to the OP, who said the lateral(?) option was declared "impractical" by the committee.

 

That suggests to me they'd put a drop area somewhere. I asked but he didn't mention any drop area so I was wondering what the committee wanted its players to do, alternatively(?) to S&D or lateral.

 

Thanks

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

OK, fwiw, it seems like that would/should be a YELLOW Penalty Area but whatev - soon they'll all be red.

 Please explain? I get that the preference is for red in course setup now, but is there a plan to phase out yellow?

[antip]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

It can be confusing….he may have mixed it up with the unplayable drop where you go back on the line going from pin and ball and get a club length on either side of line…

 

or did they amend that as well?

It's now required drop on the line for all BOL relief - rule 16.3, 17 or 19.

[antip]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

I confess I didn't look over the Rules changes for 2023.

 

Just curious as I don't remember exactly but prior to this year the reference point was on the line and created a semi-circle relief area & the ball could be dropped anywhere within the relief area.

 

But NOW the ball must be dropped ON the line and can roll up to 1 CL in ANY direction, even closer to the hole ?

 

Is that correct ? TIA

 

Yes. This change enabled the abolition of the MLR E-12 abomination that was in play on the tours and all clubs in my neck of the woods. That MLR had many unintended complications.

[antip]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 Please explain? I get that the preference is for red in course setup now, but is there a plan to phase out yellow?

I don't believe so, some significant holes at significant courses are designed specifically for this rule - so I don't think it will ever disappear. 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, antip said:

It's now required drop on the line for all BOL relief - rule 16.3, 17 or 19.

Yes, and the ball can roll/bounce/move up to a club length in any  direction from where it lands.

 

thank you to @sui generisfor the rules changes

Edited May 21, 2023 by Shilgy
Credit due

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

How is that different from Qeight's description ?

 

Time line..?

 

There is no difference, they were simply written at different times. I did not see the case and was merely speculating. Q8 apparently saw it.

[iacas]

21 hours ago, nsxguy said:

By-the-by, since red PAs were mentioned,,,,,,,,,

 

Apparently Mickelson (yesterday) hit one off the tee into a lateral red PA.

 

Mickelson Ruling 5/19/23

 

Not clear on the exact issue but it sounds like he picked the spot last crossed (& referred to it as "line of sight" ), picked his reference point back on the line, and then measured a CL to the left to get on the fairway.

 

It seems an official was right nearby and corrected Mickelson to drop directly ON the line and THAT was the correct drop as of 2023.

 

I confess I didn't look over the Rules changes for 2023.

 

Just curious as I don't remember exactly but prior to this year the reference point was on the line and created a semi-circle relief area & the ball could be dropped anywhere within the relief area.

 

But NOW the ball must be dropped ON the line and can roll up to 1 CL in ANY direction, even closer to the hole ?

 

Is that correct ? TIA

 

 

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Time line..?

 

There is no difference, they were simply written at different times. I did not see the case and was merely speculating. Q8 apparently saw it.

 

Aren't you one of "those guys" who "rips someone a new one" (OK, perhaps that's a slight exaggeration) when they don't read prior posts ? Or misreads them ?

 

20 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

If things went as you described then Phil played from a wrong place. But I believe things did not go that way.

 

Qeight replied to THIS post of yours, which is why I didn't bother.

 

But so long as it's relevant again, HOW did I describe Phil playing from a wrong place ? TIA

[nsxguy]

18 hours ago, hammersia said:

I was just quoting from part of the explanation of what a lateral hazard is according to the rules, not specifically what out committee had said.

 

It so happens in our specific case it would be impractical - it's a big pond and would take ages. But I know of plenty of laterals that wouldn't seem "impractical", difficult yes, but not "impractical". 

 

So has your committee actually "denied" lateral relief ? Because it doesn't sound like the Rules have. Being inconvenient has nothing to do with the Rules.

 

So what do you do then ? Take either BOL or S&D relief, yes ?

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

But so long as it's relevant again, HOW did I describe Phil playing from a wrong place ? TIA

 

My mistake, I did not read your post carefully enough. Sorry.

[SNIPERBBB]

There is a local rule available for opposite side relief, if implemented, but it's meant only for red PAs where it's not practical to drop same-side where you'd otherwise have to take BOL relief or S&D. 

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

There is a local rule available for opposite side relief, if implemented, but it's meant only for red PAs where it's not practical to drop same-side where you'd otherwise have to take BOL relief or S&D. 

 

Yeah, I forget the answer given when I asked why they removed that as a standard option. Does anyone recall?