That 30-40 yard pitch…

[Rosco1216]

To the guys saying a fuller comfortable wedge distance will always be the better play to a tucked pin over bunker then a 30-40 yard partial wedge, well..no $hit. A basic fuller wedge is easier to pull off than a short sided 30y flop shot over a bunker or hazard. 

 

Law of averages will always say being closer to the hole is better, because it is.  Law of averages also takes out the variable of situational shots that arise multiple times every round where the situation and variables of the shot require a different type of shot to execute.  Same basic variables in a situation that has multiple shot options, closer is always better.
 

 

 

[North Butte]

2 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Agree 100% - and that's why the biggest takeaway I get from tracking my SG values is to 'flip it upside down', i.e. finding my own 'expected number of shots to hole out from distance+lie combo'... says a lot, objectively, about weakenesses

Back in the late 90’s/early 00’s I actually baselined at 30-40 of my rounds and came up with some vaguely like Strokes Gained. That was a decade before ShotLink came along to provide data to Broadie, et al. 

[Ri_Redneck]

Great discussion! I have been on both sides of this topic and now reside somewhere in the middle. I found that to be the best place since extremes don't work well all the time. You have to establish a process for assessing every situation on it's own merits. Sometimes I play as close as possible and sometimes I lay up to a specific yardage. It all depends on the situation.

 

Think about every situation you see Pros in when they are faced with ANY partial shot. How many practice swings do they typically make with how many different clubs do they consider. You don't see it all on TV because they don't show it. I've seen seasoned pros try three or more different clubs, before they settle on the desired one, when faced with a tough pitch. Even then, they may take several practice swings trying to get just the right feel of the shot before attempting it.

 

In several posts here it's been mentioned that practicing these shots will help you become proficient. Well DUH!! That's the case with everything golf related! But most don't dedicate the time necessary to get where they want to be. Go to a tournament and watch the pros warm up and prepare. It's hours! Now take into consideration that they do that EVERY DAY!! Practice-Play-Practice Repeat. That's what they do to be where they are.

 

And the average amateur hardly practices or warms up before trying to shoot their best game. It's not happening.

 

BT

[doctor220]

22 hours ago, Rosco1216 said:

To the guys saying a fuller comfortable wedge distance will always be the better play to a tucked pin over bunker then a 30-40 yard partial wedge, well..no $hit. A basic fuller wedge is easier to pull off than a short sided 30y flop shot over a bunker or hazard. 

 

Law of averages will always say being closer to the hole is better, because it is.  Law of averages also takes out the variable of situational shots that arise multiple times every round where the situation and variables of the shot require a different type of shot to execute.  Same basic variables in a situation that has multiple shot options, closer is always better.
 

 

 

There just aren’t that many tucked pins. And vast vast majority on here don’t need to be trying to hit it super close to a 30 yard tucked pin in tough conditions . Even as a + handicap that plays in numerous tournaments, there are somewhat often pins that from 30 yards I am happy to take my 20 foot putt. It happens. Land it within 5 feet of hole and accept it’ll probably bounce 5-15 feet from there if greens are firm. 
 

and think this shot is still much more likely to end up close than a 100 yard wedge. 

[North Butte]

2 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

and think this shot is still much more likely to end up close than a 100 yard wedge. 

That's the crazy part of this eternal discussion. The assumption that if you can just somehow give yourself a perfect full swing "number", that virtually guarantees you'll hit it six feet from the hole. 

 

It's one thing to say I stink at 30-yard pitch shots so I'll leave myself full swings and avoid the stress of dealing with a shot I don't feel good about. It's another to think you stink at 30-yard pitch shots but you're as good as a Tour player from certain full-swing numbers.

 

Those two things just never are true about the same golfer, ever. 

[stryper]

21 minutes ago, North Butte said:

That's the crazy part of this eternal discussion. The assumption that if you can just somehow give yourself a perfect full swing "number", that virtually guarantees you'll hit it six feet from the hole. 

 

It's one thing to say I stink at 30-yard pitch shots so I'll leave myself full swings and avoid the stress of dealing with a shot I don't feel good about. It's another to think you stink at 30-yard pitch shots but you're as good as a Tour player from certain full-swing numbers.

 

Those two things just never are true about the same golfer, ever. 

Or the golfer could be thinking, I suck at both, but I suck less from 100 yards than I do from 30, so I’ll take my chances. Overall, the thought process may be sound, if only a bit short-sited.  Still, I agree.  As a matter of scale, misses from 30 are (almost) always going to be better than misses from much farther out.

[PracticeSwinger]

8 hours ago, North Butte said:

That's the crazy part of this eternal discussion. The assumption that if you can just somehow give yourself a perfect full swing "number", that virtually guarantees you'll hit it six feet from the hole. 

 

It's one thing to say I stink at 30-yard pitch shots so I'll leave myself full swings and avoid the stress of dealing with a shot I don't feel good about. It's another to think you stink at 30-yard pitch shots but you're as good as a Tour player from certain full-swing numbers.

 

Those two things just never are true about the same golfer, ever. 

 

8 hours ago, stryper said:

Or the golfer could be thinking, I suck at both, but I suck less from 100 yards than I do from 30, so I’ll take my chances. Overall, the thought process may be sound, if only a bit short-sited.  Still, I agree.  As a matter of scale, misses from 30 are (almost) always going to be better than misses from much farther out.

That's why the link to the Lou Stagner letter is interesting, where he compared players to themselves, every cap levels (at least 30 half wedge shots 40-60yds range and at least 30 full wedge shots 90-110yds range) and found that 96% of the players were better on half wedge shots for all of these: number of shots to hole out, hit green %, average and median proximity. So even for players that think they do better from 100, only 1 out of 20 actually is.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Varry_Hardon
typo

[Celeras]

On 7/5/2023 at 12:25 PM, umamimami said:

 

B) you go for a long iron or wood or hybrid, all of which you can proficiently hit 210-260. Your second shot is now a spin-able, controllable wedge shot. You can stick those to 10. You might get it to under 10 feet! 

 

This is such an overshared fallacy and there is no data in the world that would support the notion that amateur golfers are capable of improving their average proximity by getting farther away from the hole. Shotscope, Arccos, Garmin, etc will all say the exact opposite, which is why the current trend in instruction centers around doing away with "favorite numbers" and always sending it as far as you can in-play and away from danger.

 

[Edit] Hah, probably should have kept reading the thread instead of stopping to comment when I read the above, since about a dozen people have already said the exact same thing. Nothing to see here, carry on!🤣

Edited July 13, 2023 by Celeras

[chollier986]

Anecdotal data from my round yesterday.

 

11 attempts inside 100 yards requiring a partial wedge.  8 of 11 GIR, +3 score with 1 three-putt 

 

2 attempts at full wedge number.  2 of 2 GIR, -2 score (holed out for eagle), 0 three-putts.

1 of 5 GIR with more than wedge in.

 

Pin placement didn’t allow me to get it close on many of the partial shots.  Maybe I would have been able to get it closer with a full swing, maybe not.  Not sure what the data tells me, maybe I just wanted to humble brag on my first hole out lol.

[umamimami]

I realize the sample size is small but that’s two people now who have mysteriously “had tricky pin placements” for their partial shots.

 

Perhaps it’s that partial wedge shots are harder to hold and that you can’t get enough spin? Perhaps there’s more “putting” / terrain usage involved? Perhaps the various green side hazards and compromised sight lines that many holes have on approach to green came into play?

 

Most holes have a lot of effort put into sight lines off the tee and sight lines into the green. There’s plenty of visual distractions too and illusions from trees and slopes. A classic example being an elevated tabletop green that makes the flag look closer than it is. Architects also slope greens to guard from various angles. Almost as if they expect people to get close but not close enough. Or as if they want to penalize you with a tougher shot for coming up short on your approach…

 

 

[chollier986]

16 minutes ago, umamimami said:

Perhaps it’s that partial wedge shots are harder to hold and that you can’t get enough spin?

Yes.  Home course has rock hard greens this time of year in Texas.  I can’t generate enough spin on the short shots to get it close to most pins, unless bump and run type play.  So it’s either get cute with flip shot and/or try to land in rough or fringe and release, or accept 15+ footers 

[Chunkitgood]

Narrow stance, ball back of center, start low and wide, turn hips and shoulders, unturn your hips and let them guide your shoulders, arms, and hands (God, what an idea!) through the downswing, low abbreviated finish.  More loft and ball up for more height, further back and less loft for bump and run.

 

According to some guy named Woods.

[MattC555]

1 hour ago, umamimami said:

I realize the sample size is small but that’s two people now who have mysteriously “had tricky pin placements” for their partial shots.

 

Perhaps it’s that partial wedge shots are harder to hold and that you can’t get enough spin? Perhaps there’s more “putting” / terrain usage involved? Perhaps the various green side hazards and compromised sight lines that many holes have on approach to green came into play?

 

Most holes have a lot of effort put into sight lines off the tee and sight lines into the green. There’s plenty of visual distractions too and illusions from trees and slopes. A classic example being an elevated tabletop green that makes the flag look closer than it is. Architects also slope greens to guard from various angles. Almost as if they expect people to get close but not close enough. Or as if they want to penalize you with a tougher shot for coming up short on your approach…

 

 

 

Do you advocate mid caps go pin hunting from 100 yards? 

[umamimami]

1 hour ago, MattC555 said:

 

Do you advocate mid caps go pin hunting from 100 yards? 

I like the decade system. Aim so that your dispersion is centered on the green. Genuinely try and hit to that target and not think boy I hope I pull/push it onto the flag. 
 

More wiggle room if the green is huge or if the flag is away from the sides of the green.

 

I think a lot of golfers would have lower scores if they stopped trying to hero every shot. It’s fun and everyone has different priorities when they’re playing but boring golf is low scoring golf.
 

As an aside: if you’re not playing a tough tough course you’d be shocked how much you can get away with low running shots. A great lesson I learned from watching old farts play as well as ladies nights. Some of the most consistent par makers and bogey savers I saw were people just making controlled straight ish shots from tee to green. They don’t try for the flag, they just try to get the ball on the putting surface. I think a lot of people overestimate how often they can get up and down heroically. 
 

Even from watching pros make saves they seem to rely more on their distance putting than they do on their proximity with the recovery shot. Of course they’re very very very good at both. 

 

 

[MattC555]

22 minutes ago, umamimami said:

I like the decade system. Aim so that your dispersion is centered on the green. Genuinely try and hit to that target and not think boy I hope I pull/push it onto the flag. 
 

More wiggle room if the green is huge or if the flag is away from the sides of the green.

 

I think a lot of golfers would have lower scores if they stopped trying to hero every shot. It’s fun and everyone has different priorities when they’re playing but boring golf is low scoring golf.
 

As an aside: if you’re not playing a tough tough course you’d be shocked how much you can get away with low running shots. A great lesson I learned from watching old farts play as well as ladies nights. Some of the most consistent par makers and bogey savers I saw were people just making controlled straight ish shots from tee to green. They don’t try for the flag, they just try to get the ball on the putting surface. I think a lot of people overestimate how often they can get up and down heroically. 
 

Even from watching pros make saves they seem to rely more on their distance putting than they do on their proximity with the recovery shot. Of course they’re very very very good at both. 

 

 

 

I'm guessing from this post your answer is no, you do not advocate pin hunting from 100 yards.  I agree.  Even as a scratch golfer I'm not pin hunting from 100 yards, as data suggests it isn't a good idea.  From 30-40 yards, within reason, I am.  Green light, birdie time.

[nitram]

As I type this, I have carded 116 rounds in 2023. My current index is +0.4. Wedges (short game) and putting inside 20 ft. is a strength. In looking at my stats, I have encountered 209 shots from the 30-40 yard range and was able to get up and down 146 times, for a 69.8% average. My average putt length is 9.2 ft.

 

On the other hand, I've been faced with 278 shots from 97-105 yards and was able to get up and down 153 times, for a 55% average and putt length of 14.8 feet.

 

So for me, (and IMHO most golfers) getting as close as you can will allow you to shoot a lower score than laying up to a preferred yardage, in most instances.

 

As always, your game is unique to you and therefore YMMV.

 

Cheers 🍻

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, nitram said:

As I type this, I have carded 116 rounds in 2023. My current index is +0.4. Wedges (short game) and putting inside 20 ft. is a strength. In looking at my stats, I have encountered 209 shots from the 30-40 yard range and was able to get up and down 146 times, for a 69.8% average. My average putt length is 9.2 ft.

 

On the other hand, I've been faced with 278 shots from 97-105 yards and was able to get up and down 153 times, for a 55% average and putt length of 14.8 feet.

 

So for me, (and IMHO most golfers) getting as close as you can will allow you to shoot a lower score than laying up to a preferred yardage, in most instances.

 

As always, your game is unique to you and therefore YMMV.

 

Cheers 🍻

For a decent-to-great putter, the difference in averaging 9' and 15' is pretty darned huge. Easy to see how your up-and-down percentage is way better from closer, given the proximity difference.

[PracticeSwinger]

3 hours ago, nitram said:

As I type this, I have carded 116 rounds in 2023. My current index is +0.4. Wedges (short game) and putting inside 20 ft. is a strength. In looking at my stats, I have encountered 209 shots from the 30-40 yard range and was able to get up and down 146 times, for a 69.8% average. My average putt length is 9.2 ft.

 

On the other hand, I've been faced with 278 shots from 97-105 yards and was able to get up and down 153 times, for a 55% average and putt length of 14.8 feet.

 

So for me, (and IMHO most golfers) getting as close as you can will allow you to shoot a lower score than laying up to a preferred yardage, in most instances.

 

As always, your game is unique to you and therefore YMMV.

 

Cheers 🍻

Amen! Now, can you elaborate on that magic that gets your 30-40yds shots to 9 feet on average (which is Tour-esque!). I’ve seen you post your practice sessions from time to time, impressive! Kudos.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, nitram said:

As I type this, I have carded 116 rounds in 2023. My current index is +0.4. Wedges (short game) and putting inside 20 ft. is a strength. In looking at my stats, I have encountered 209 shots from the 30-40 yard range and was able to get up and down 146 times, for a 69.8% average. My average putt length is 9.2 ft.

 

On the other hand, I've been faced with 278 shots from 97-105 yards and was able to get up and down 153 times, for a 55% average and putt length of 14.8 feet.

 

So for me, (and IMHO most golfers) getting as close as you can will allow you to shoot a lower score than laying up to a preferred yardage, in most instances.

 

As always, your game is unique to you and therefore YMMV.

 

Cheers 🍻

And your numbers are exactly why some seem to think being closer is a detriment.  From 100ish yards you averaged ~15’.  That’s basically Tour level so kudos to you.  I’m guessing 15’ from 100 yards and you’re relatively happy.

 

From 30-40 yards you averaged 9’.  So definitely, on average, better than 100as expected.

 

But here’s where the guys advocating laying up further back miss imo.

 

Based on your numbers if you hit one to 12’ from 35 yards you’d be disappointed.  But it’s still be better than your average from 100 yds. 
 

Too many let that disappointment sway their on course decisions.

 

Would you rather be happy at 15’ or disappointed hitting it to 12’?

[nitram]

12 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Amen! Now, can you elaborate on that magic that gets your 30-40yds shots to 9 feet on average (which is Tour-esque!). I’ve seen you post your practice sessions from time to time, impressive! Kudos.

 

Yeah, I don't try to do anything super complicated. I strive to keep golf as simple as possible.

 

I hit 100 or so wedges a day, 4-5 days/week, from the fringe to 120 yards, with most balls hit from 12-70 yards. Most of my wedge shots are low to mid by design, as my home course is windy (15+) 90% of the time. As a result I mostly depend more on carry and predictable roll as opposed to trying to spin it.

 

On the 30-40 shot my focus is on the lie, and what it tells me about the shot I can hit. After that it's all about trying to land the ball in an area the size of a small hula-hoop or basketball goal. From the fairway (especially a tight lie) you have to account for more spin so you adjust your target a little closer to the pin, and focus on the target and completing the swing.

 

As an example, a stock shot sitting in the fairway with a clean lie for a 30 yard shot to a flat/straight target, I'd select the 60, select a target around 26-27 yards, play the ball middle/back in the stance, open the face about 5*, focus on the hula-hoop, tell myself to "finish" while not allowing the butt of the club get past my left inner thigh, and execute a medium tempo shot that should fly about 30-35 ft. high, bounce on the green, and stop within 3-5 ft. from where it landed. If it does stop as intended, I should have a putt around 5-8 ft. (on average). If it doesn't, I've allowed for it to run out another 10 ft. or so and still have a putt within my average. Rarely will this shot check up short instead of roll out longer.

 

Of course things change if the lie is bad or I'm in the rough. This usually means less control of the shot because you have to introduce more variables to execute the shot. Variables (although necessary at times) complicate the shot, and that rarely means good scoring for me.

 

Golf is Scottish slang for predictable. The man who taught me the game told me something I'll never forget. He said, "Depending on spin will eventually break your heart. It's never dependable, under the gun. There will be occasions when you absolutely need it, but that's maybe 10%, or less."

 

If I can offer one thing from playing this game for 45 years now is keep your game as simple as possible. I see more amateurs at every level try to hit complicated shots when something more simple would be more serviceable, and they would score better. And they are always thinking, " if I hit this shot right my ball will be next to the pin." But never seem to think about the result(s) if they don't. And the success rate is roughly 25%, at best.

 

Keep it simple. It's not as sexy, but your scores will be better.

 

 

[GungHoGolf]

28 minutes ago, nitram said:

medium tempo shot that should fly about 30-35 ft. high, bounce on the green, and stop within 3-5 ft. from where it landed

After reading your tour-level short game stats, I’m surprised that your stock 30-yd pitch goes 30-35 ft high (3-story building height). That’s seriously high for such a short shot… your launch angle must be around 40°, vs the ~30° launch seen with most elite golfers using a lob wedge. 

 

For reference, a 40-yd shot launched at 30° reaches a height of about 20 ft. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by GungHoGolf

[nitram]

11 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

After reading your tour-level short game stats, I’m surprised that your stock 30-yd pitch goes 30-35 ft high (3-story building height). That’s seriously high for such a short shot… your launch angle must be around 40°, vs the ~30° launch seen with most elite golfers using a lob wedge. 

Yeah, that's what Trackman says, although it doesn't look that high from my end. One of the things that contributes to this is me striving for middle face contact on the 3rd-4th scoring line as opposed to the toe-ish 2nd scoring line shot. I've never been comfortable with the skulled feeling, although I know it's "spinnier." That's part of the complication of the shot I referenced earlier.

 

Again, it's more predictable for me to hit it this way and the wind doesn't mess with it.

[SNIPERBBB]

55 minutes ago, nitram said:

 

 

 

Golf is Scottish slang for predictable. The man who taught me the game told me something I'll never forget. He said, "Depending on spin will eventually break your heart. It's never dependable, under the gun. There will be occasions when you absolutely need it, but that's maybe 10%, or less."

 

 

 

 

My home course depending on spin will cut you. anything less than a 3/4 swing is not going to stop on a dime. You;'' see the ball grab and then roll out. You dont generally get the one or two bounce and stop unless you land on some of the permanent soft spots on your greens. Really need to know where to land the ball on the greens or where to land it short of the greens to get it close here.  Cant land it to close to the greens or the ball rolls all the way off, gotta almost die it onto the green or carry the green and get spin on it.

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, nitram said:

 

As an example, a stock shot sitting in the fairway with a clean lie for a 30 yard shot to a flat/straight target, I'd select the 60, select a target around 26-27 yards, play the ball middle/back in the stance, open the face about 5*, focus on the hula-hoop, tell myself to "finish" while not allowing the butt of the club get past my left inner thigh, and execute a medium tempo shot that should fly about 30-35 ft. high, bounce on the green, and stop within 3-5 ft. from where it landed. If it does stop as intended, I should have a putt around 5-8 ft. (on average). If it doesn't, I've allowed for it to run out another 10 ft. or so and still have a putt within my average. Rarely will this shot check up short instead of roll out longer.

 

Awesome post, as I knew it would be! That paragraph is key, and seems to be written with a minimizing risk mindset - love it (rather than a maximizing profit, which I see too many amateurs play). Plan it, execute and if it goes as planned the outcome is a great up and down chance, if it doesn't go as planned, there still is a chance.

[kiawah]

Whenever I start to lose my feel from 30-50 yards it's usually because my backswing has gotten too long which prevents me from accelerating through the ball properly. I usually fix this by trying to take the club back to about "7:30 or 8 o'clock," which feels like an unnaturally short swing, but if you strike the ball properly it should get there from inside 50 yards without much issue. 

[JungleJimbo]

On 7/5/2023 at 9:40 PM, Varry_Hardon said:

Looking for any tips from guys with great short game, I’m particularly interested in the 30-40 yards range. Not those bump and runs and/or close to the green chips/pitches, but more of those medium range around the green shots.

 

I know it’s a low priority category when it comes to other aspects of practice and score improvements because they’re infrequent shots and part of those up and down numbers are related to the upcoming putt. Still, when looking at stats : Tour pros, pluses and scratch guys proximity from that range is way better than mine (10-15 ft range compared to 20 ft – with 29% and 27% u&d numbers from pros and scratch respectively compared to my 20%)

 

How do you approach these shots – lie assessment, green complex, proximity target, spin and trajectory control, to go club, etc? Or is it more related to the previous approach shot and to make sure you’re not short-sided (even though a lot of those shots are coming from ‘going for it’ on Par5s)… anything to help a Wrx fellow…  

 

my swing thought = commit & don't de-celerate... else this might happen?

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by JungleJimbo

[North Butte]

23 minutes ago, kiawah said:

Whenever I start to lose my feel from 30-50 yards it's usually because my backswing has gotten too long which prevents me from accelerating through the ball properly. I usually fix this by trying to take the club back to about "7:30 or 8 o'clock," which feels like an unnaturally short swing, but if you strike the ball properly it should get there from inside 50 yards without much issue. 

I'm the opposite. When I start duffing or blading those shots, invariably one of my buddies will tell me, "You made about half your normal backswing and then jabbed at it". Anxiety is a killer.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

 

my swing thought = commit & don't de-celerate... else this might happen?

 

I’m sure he still eagled that hole…😏

[Rbsiedsc]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

I’m sure he still eagled that hole…😏

apparently went up and down for birdie according to Truth Social

[gsrjc]

On 7/13/2023 at 1:19 PM, MattC555 said:

 

Do you advocate mid caps go pin hunting from 100 yards? 

I do. I’m a 9.9