Is my steep swing really truly hindering me?

[tthomasgolfer605]

8 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I been playing for over 30yrs using a steep -AoA.  My low index was 2, currently hover 3-5 depending on body n time of year.  I do NOT believe a steep AoA is prohibitive for an amateur.  Plenty of guys on tour are steep too.

Nobody is saying he's steep. 

[ShawLF]

6 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I saw your video. His shoulder plane is steeper than Tiger's. The difference is where the clubface is. 

 

Are you comparing pitching wedge swings? Or pitching wedge to driver? See images below.

 

2 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Shoulder turn doesn't need to be steeper; but he does need more side bending matched with a different hip turn.

 

left side bend (not tilt but curving the thoracic spine) will make the shoulders steeper. On average with driver/long irons, tour pros are 40* in the back swing and 55* in the downswing. If you look at DJ he's like 70* with a wedge. Sam Bennet is nearly vertical. 

 

Just now, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Doesn't side bend steepen the shoulder plane? Now I'm confused. 

yes it does. But, moving from left to right side bend in transition shallows the club big time.

 

 

This is Tiger with an iron at the top, and at P8

 

 

 

 

[virtuoso]

2 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Doesn't side bend steepen the shoulder plane? Now I'm confused. 

Less hip slant with more side bending cancels out.

[ShawLF]

2 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Less hip slant with more side bending cancels out.

possibly yeah.

 

For others that don't see the side bend part, here are some images of DJ with a wedge. Notice the wrinkles in his shirt at the top (left side bend) and at P8 (right side bend). In both cases his spine is curved to the right, but the bend needs to obviously reverse in transition.

 

 

 

 

[virtuoso]

3 minutes ago, ShawLF said:

 

left side bend (not tilt but curving the thoracic spine) will make the shoulders steeper. On average with driver/long irons, tour pros are 40* in the back swing and 55* in the downswing. If you look at DJ he's like 70* with a wedge. Sam Bennet is nearly vertical. 

Yes, that's what it does, but we would disagree that he needs his shoulder plane more steep. He needs less early hip turn, less early hip slant, then add side bend back in. Shoulder slant would end up being similar. Check arm slack after that. Clean up tranny. See what all that does to pivot sequence and exit. Adjust face angle to suit.

[Pepperturbo]

22 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Nobody is saying he's steep. 

His post read something different.

 

"I am a three handicap with a steep swing (or so im told, but understanding the golf swing is difficult for me). I get told all the time it's something to fix, but plenty of great players have had steep swings, right?"

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, Pepperturbo said:

His post read something different.

 

"I am a three handicap with a steep swing (or so im told, but understanding the golf swing is difficult for me). I get told all the time it's something to fix, but plenty of great players have had steep swings, right?"

He was misdiagnosed by his golfing buddies apparently. 

[Valtiel]

19 hours ago, Nwichert said:

Hello, 

I am a three handicap with a steep swing (or so im told, but understanding the golf swing is difficult for me). I get told all the time it's something to fix, but plenty of great players have had steep swings, right? 

Thoughts? Any additional swing tips for me? 

 

 

There is already a lot of back and forth in this thread that I don't want to add more noise to, so i'll just recommend the following based on what we know:

1) You're already a good golfer so seeking in person instruction is going to help your game far more than soliciting internet advice, no matter how accurate it may be. 

2) I'd recognize that driving range anywhere (what up Cinnabar Hills!) so I know where you're generally located and there are PLENTY of good instructors in the area (they just won't be cheap unfortunately). 

I would pursue that if possible and use these forums are a potential supplement to that instead of a replacement. You're good enough and have a solid enough swing to warrant taking it seriously. 

[Pepperturbo]

14 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He was misdiagnosed by his golfing buddies apparently. 

Which ever it is, he's concerned about it enough to ask.  Some people are out of touch when it comes to what's common among better amateurs, and pros.  I answered his question by sharing my experience. 

[KMeloney]

This talk of his shoulder plane being too flat is crazy. How much steeper can it get?!

[GungHoGolf]

5 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I been playing for over 30yrs using a steep -AoA.  My low index was 2, currently hover 3-5 depending on body n time of year.  I do NOT believe a steep AoA is prohibitive for an amateur.  Plenty of guys on tour are steep too.

When a swing is called steep, it’s almost never referring to angle of attack. Rather, it’s referring to shaft angle in the downswing from DTL. 

[Zitlow]

14 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

The clubface is way too shut. It's literally parallel to his back line at p5. This is square to the arc. 

 

In the photo above Snead and the club shaft and face are in position so his right side can swing into the ball like a door closing.

 

 

The shoulder swings the arm into position not the other way around. 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Zitlow

[virtuoso]

…..and he’s rolling the grip with his hands like crazy.

[bladehunter]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:02 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Steep is not a word I would use for this swing.  
 

Could you benefit from being a little more upright at address?  Yes

 

Could you benefit from getting the vertical hinge set earlier and shortening the arm swing?  Maybe.

 

It bothers me when people who don’t know what they’re looking at criticize other people’s swings when it’s unsolicited.

 

You probably beat all the people who say your swing is steep.

 

 

This ^. Comments like this Monte are why I list you above most teachers I know of .  Not everyone needs a rebuild simply because they’re a hair outside of perfect. 

[Nwichert]

19 hours ago, ShawLF said:

I echo this point. This is primarily caused by your shoulder plane being a  too flat in the takeaway/backswing and causes you to bring the club inside early, and when your hips and shoulders stop turning, your arms continue to lift. The fix for this is adding lead side bend (not tilt but thoracic bend). Recorded a video to point this out.

 

Wow! Thank you so much. I’m trying this at work right now (night shift problems) and I can already tell how the L bend restricts my arm over run. I’m very excited to go try this on the range this afternoon.

 

I appreciate all of your guys comments and I’ll reply more when I get to a desktop, but thanks for taking the time to give your input!

 

To answer some questions: 

 

1. I had a few “golf coaches” say I should shallow my swing… hence the title. Guess I won’t be looking for advice from them anymore.  
 

2. I had a really weak grip months ago and have tried to strengthen it. I may be exaggerating it too much now. 
 

3. My miss is a little hookey left when it’s bad bad. I would say the majority of misses is right as my mishits are off the heel which causes the heel “cut/slice” spin. Also a complete push sometimes (although I think that’s more alignment issue)

 

4. I use to play a lot of golf when I was younger, quit, became an adult, and now I’m trying to get back into the fun, recreational, competitive scene. Much harder to do when having to work lol. 
 

Also shoutout to the guy who noticed cinnabar. I’m a travel RN so down here for work, but based in phoenix. Love cinnabar! 

[bladehunter]

16 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He was misdiagnosed by his golfing buddies apparently. 

I read this as folks mislabeling an upright swing as “ steep “ because the guy is on the taller side and not laying it down flat.  That’s a single dimensional view.  

[Jeselnik]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:39 PM, Nwichert said:

Hello, 

I am a three handicap with a steep swing (or so im told, but understanding the golf swing is difficult for me). I get told all the time it's something to fix, but plenty of great players have had steep swings, right? 

Thoughts? Any additional swing tips for me? 

 

 

I learned a deeper shallower swing to help with fairways, turned into a year long project.  If your not having consistency issues then stay the course.  What I wouldn’t do is take advice from people giving you ideas that are incompatible.

 

JNIK

[getitdaily]

2 hours ago, Nwichert said:

Wow! Thank you so much. I’m trying this at work right now (night shift problems) and I can already tell how the L bend restricts my arm over run. I’m very excited to go try this on the range this afternoon.

 

I appreciate all of your guys comments and I’ll reply more when I get to a desktop, but thanks for taking the time to give your input!

 

To answer some questions: 

 

1. I had a few “golf coaches” say I should shallow my swing… hence the title. Guess I won’t be looking for advice from them anymore.  
 

2. I had a really weak grip months ago and have tried to strengthen it. I may be exaggerating it too much now. 
 

3. My miss is a little hookey left when it’s bad bad. I would say the majority of misses is right as my mishits are off the heel which causes the heel “cut/slice” spin. Also a complete push sometimes (although I think that’s more alignment issue)

 

4. I use to play a lot of golf when I was younger, quit, became an adult, and now I’m trying to get back into the fun, recreational, competitive scene. Much harder to do when having to work lol. 
 

Also shoutout to the guy who noticed cinnabar. I’m a travel RN so down here for work, but based in phoenix. Love cinnabar! 

Cinnabar...sounds like the healthy place @MonteScheinblumhangs out at now that he's trying to get in better shape. He'll be the guy in 80s aerobic attire.

Edited August 25, 2023 by getitdaily

[Nwichert]

On 8/24/2023 at 9:23 AM, virtuoso said:

Hey ShawLF, I like that video......but, would you really want to add side bend into it with that much hip slant and right leg lock out? I agree with the side bend part, but I'd fix the problem downstairs first--retain a little more knee flex, flatten the pelvis out a bit, then add lead side bend after that. I'd stack the fixes from the ground up to make it more feasible.

Hi! Thanks for the comment. Are you referring to my hips being too open in my back swing and slanted at an aggressive angle down? 
 

im looking at this picture and I feel like I’m nearly facing backwards with my belt buckle while pros seem more 45*
 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Nwichert

[virtuoso]

The camera angle is adding a little bit, but yeah, I’d probably start by quieting down the hips a smidge. Retain a little more knee flex in the right leg. That would take some tilt out of the pelvis and shorten the turn some.

[ShawLF]

@Nwichert like others have said, you've received a lot of feedback. What I can tell you is that:

 

1) your patterns are exactly the same as mine *were* and I've had instruction from world class instructors that made significant improvements over time with concentrated practice, but it takes continuous work to keep those changes because I always default back to my natural motor patterns

 

2) You're already a great golfer. Improvements at your level are going to come from changing your motor patterns, not from hitting more balls:

 

Motor pattern #1) Your shoulders are too flat.

You compensate by tilting your hips / bending your lead knee - but this bent knee creates other problems. You'll want to add lead side thoracic side bend in your back swing. If you're standing upright and slide your left hand down your body and slide your right hand up the side of your body that's the feeling. It will be like a "ab crunch" under your left armpit and a stretch up your right side. It will be the opposite in your downswing.

Here's a video describing this: 

 

 

 

Motor pattern #2) external rotation of trail hip

 

12 hours ago, Nwichert said:

Are you referring to my hips being too open in my back swing

 

Yes your hips are "too open" but probably not for the reason many would think. Early in your backswing you likely do put your right hip into internal rotation (IR) but as your get to the end of your turn you let it out and move into external rotation (ER). Staying in IR will limit your backswing which is something you need.

 

Here's a video describing this: 

 

 

 

Motor pattern #3) early extension

Draw a line behind your butt at address. In the backswing you add hip depth (your butt crosses that line moving away from the ball) which is what you want. Ideally in transition you want to maintain your trail hip depth, and move your lead hip backward to match. This move shallows the club and creates space for your arms. The AMG video above shows this move has being a little bit of a forward flexion towards the ball. Instead of doing this you stand up and your butt comes towards the ball at impact. This causes you to dump your wrist angles to reach the ball. 

 

There are lots of reasons for early extension, but for the most part it is a compensation for something else. Could be your lead knee bend, could be using your hip flexors vs. your lower abs in transition - this causes the knees to bend vs. adding hip depth. In any case, attached the set up I used to work on this.

 

Lastly, the "too closed" face. Personally I wouldn't change this now. All the things I mention above, if incorporated into your swing, will open the face - the side effects will be shallowing the club, forward shaft lean, maintaining hip depth and staying in posture through the shot. These all open the club face. So if you make the changes above, and simultaneously have a more open face, you're going to create issues.

 

Problem for me is that I can only load 50MB files. Maybe I'll post something more comprehensive to youtube that explains all this better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

shoulder plane hip depth drill.mov

Edited August 26, 2023 by ShawLF
typo

[virtuoso]

Perhaps before anyone gets too in-depth with the analysis, we should see a face on vid to give another perspective. I have to disagree with the right hip being in external rotation at the top of the backswing. If so, his right leg would be out of the screen.

[Soloman1]

There are some people giving you good feedback already. I’ll stick to this:

 

1. Tour averages of range of motion are of no value. There’s a wide band of ranges and hardly anyone is the “average.”

 

2. Comparing swings and positions to Tiger, DJ or Snead (who was famous for not doing what he said) is a fools journey, unless you’re a clone with the same physical characteristics, strengths, weaknesses, sequence and rhythm.

 

3. What happens earlier is most important, it affects what happens later.

 

Caveat emptor and good luck!

[dap]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:39 AM, Nwichert said:

Hello, 

I am a three handicap with a steep swing (or so im told, but understanding the golf swing is difficult for me). I get told all the time it's something to fix, but plenty of great players have had steep swings, right? 

Thoughts? Any additional swing tips for me? 

 

 

You backswing is similar to Justin Thomas. He also has an upright backswing swing with very high hands at the top. If you have arm over run then so has he. It’s not critical in my opinion but what JT doesn’t do is early extend on the downswing. You come off the tushline way too much on the downswing and look really cramped at impact. I think that is your most serious issue and needs to be addressed first. Moving pelvis closer to ball on the downswing often causes heel misses and the occasional shank.

 

Your instructors probably meant your swing is upright, not steep. I wouldn’t change it but your pelvis motion needs cleaning up on the downswing.

[DataGolfer]

Not steep. Arms overrun, need a little more early hinge, a little less backswing, a little more separation of arms from body from P5 to P6.

 

I imagine you're pretty good when you're on and have a two-way miss when you're off. 

[ShawLF]

23 hours ago, dap said:

You come off the tushline way too much on the downswing and look really cramped at impact.

100% agree with this. I posted a video earlier on how I train to correct this.

 

23 hours ago, dap said:

You backswing is similar to Justin Thomas. He also has an upright backswing swing with very high hands at the top. If you have arm over run then so has he.

ok, yeah, agreed to high hands, but they get there in a totally different way that are meaningful differences - both of these with wedge swings:

- JT's club head is outside his hands at P2. @Nwichert 's club head is inside his hands because he's turning without adding lead side bend. Look at the difference in how their shirts are being pulled from the belt line - the stretches are in the opposite direction.

- @Nwichert's shoulder angle is partially driven by his lead knee bending and lowering of his lead side hip. By P2 you can see space between his legs. Not so with JT

- Also at P2 JT is clearly loading his trail hip into internal rotation, not so with @Nwichert whose hips are more spinning open - you can tell because his trail knee is pointed more behind the ball, and his trail foot is supinating, and the stretch on his pants is opposite of what happens when you IR your hip.

- At the top JT's shaft is pointing at 11:45, @Nwichert is around 4:00.

- only at the top can you see space between JT's legs. The shoulder plane is mostly due to lead side bend - not bending of the lead knee.

 

I really don't want to come across as critical. If @Nwichert were a 20 handicap I wouldn't point any of this out. The points I'm raising above are differences I see between golfers that are -3 and golfers that are +8. We can obviously point out outliers but there's a reason the best ams and pros don't do the things I'm pointing out above.

 

 

[Nwichert]

9 hours ago, ShawLF said:

100% agree with this. I posted a video earlier on how I train to correct this.

 

ok, yeah, agreed to high hands, but they get there in a totally different way that are meaningful differences - both of these with wedge swings:

- JT's club head is outside his hands at P2. @Nwichert 's club head is inside his hands because he's turning without adding lead side bend. Look at the difference in how their shirts are being pulled from the belt line - the stretches are in the opposite direction.

- @Nwichert's shoulder angle is partially driven by his lead knee bending and lowering of his lead side hip. By P2 you can see space between his legs. Not so with JT

- Also at P2 JT is clearly loading his trail hip into internal rotation, not so with @Nwichert whose hips are more spinning open - you can tell because his trail knee is pointed more behind the ball, and his trail foot is supinating, and the stretch on his pants is opposite of what happens when you IR your hip.

- At the top JT's shaft is pointing at 11:45, @Nwichert is around 4:00.

- only at the top can you see space between JT's legs. The shoulder plane is mostly due to lead side bend - not bending of the lead knee.

 

I really don't want to come across as critical. If @Nwichert were a 20 handicap I wouldn't point any of this out. The points I'm raising above are differences I see between golfers that are -3 and golfers that are +8. We can obviously point out outliers but there's a reason the best ams and pros don't do the things I'm pointing out above.

 

 

Thank you! I really do appreciate the critical-ness of all the critique. I need it and appreciate it a lot. 
 

I did have a nice reply written out in mobile, but it got deleted lol. I’ll dive into a lot of this especially in your other comment and get back with some questions im sure. 
 

I did try to incorporate some left side bend in my range session the other day and I could tell some significant improvement with ballstriking. When I hit a “good one” it felt so pure. 
 

As you stated my miss is definitely heel & the occasionally shank

[aggiegolfer21]

What is your normal ball flight? Draw or Fade? Launch high or low? Too much or too little spin?

[glk]

Big issues are posture at setup - too close with too much thoracic bend - needs to be further away so can bend more at hips and not at thorax.    This is relatively simple to improve and better prepares the body for the backswing.    https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/?hl=en.     Face on would tell more about any setup items. 

 

Second is how the legs are moving the pelvis - appears pelvis is turning on the vertical axis and not on the axis from setup - so pelvis over rotates  - really noticeable in downswing where right hip comes out higher and stay higher even at impact - hips are flat versus tilted to the right.   This includes the  poor sequencing in the backswing that is mostly due to how the legs are being used to rotate the pelvis which then affects everything up the chain (think of it as building a house with a poor foundation or missing a button hole early in buttoning a shirt - everything that comes afterward is effected) - the complete straightening of the right leg is  problematic in that get the right hip too far back and with the leg straight the ability to use the ground effectively is compromised.    Expect that shifting pressure is an issue - face on would tell more.   

 

You won't improve this unless you change how you move your legs/pelvis from the start of the swing - this is a reaction to all that came before.

 

Find someone that gets you using your legs better in pushing the ground to improve how your lower body moves - at this point addressing other items is window dressing, imo, and may help or make matters worse.    I imagine that  you would not be able to do continuous full swings well - though attempting would expose the issues with how you are moving your body.

 

 

[ShawLF]

@glk agreed. Porzak is great. A few people at my club work with Todd Sones. I continuously refer to this image from one of Porzak's videos.

 

 

Also 100% spot on wrt the hips and pelvis, Prozak recently posted this video with Sones. As they were describing how to load the hip I kept saying "just call it internal rotation of the trail hip". I find that the loading of the trail hip is super confusing for a lot of people and it really helps to work with someone in person to help them get you into that position. I first learned this with my ski racing coach. Proper IR of the hip is critical to so many athletic motions.