WHS Rule Changes for 2024

[nsxguy]

14 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I have gone into GHIN "Golfer Lookup" to see if someone I golfed with posted a low score.  It definitely does make it easier to see what scores someone is posting. 

 

My club has a president and a handicap chairman but the don't do much handicap oversight and really only react when something seems way out of whack.  

 

That's been my experience as well.

 

But it seems to me, here in the States, we're often as lazy as xxxx. About many things.

 

From The Day the Earth Stood Still (remake), paraphrasing, "we humans only act when we're on the precipice".

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, larrybud said:

 

So you guys never play anywhere else, is that what I'm understanding?

 

No. I suppose I could have been more clear, but we were a Sunday club. Most everybody worked during the week and only played on Sundays. But some had much more freedom (fireman, cop, business owner, etc.) and played at times during the week and with each other.

 

"the committee knew who played during the week. The guys always talked about the games."

[larrybud]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

No. I suppose I could have been more clear, but we were a Sunday club. Most everybody worked during the week and only played on Sundays. But some had much more freedom (fireman, cop, business owner, etc.) and played at times during the week and with each other.

 

"the committee knew who played during the week. The guys always talked about the games."

 

How would they know if "Dave" played the course down the road, and whether the score he posted was legit? I think you're kidding yourself. Who cares if they "talked about the games"? That's not in any way, shape or form attesting scores. 

[Nels55]

27 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

That's been my experience as well.

 

But it seems to me, here in the States, we're often as lazy as xxxx. About many things.

 

From The Day the Earth Stood Still (remake), paraphrasing, "we humans only act when we're on the precipice".

Somewhat lazy but also a desire not to stir it up and create conflict.

[nsxguy]

44 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

How would they know if "Dave" played the course down the road, and whether the score he posted was legit? I think you're kidding yourself. Who cares if they "talked about the games"? That's not in any way, shape or form attesting scores. 

 

"and played at times during the week and with each other."

 

"the committee knew who played during the week. The guys always talked about the games."

 

They are ALWAYS checking ("attesting") each other's scores during and after the games to settle bets.

 

The assumption would be, if "caught" playing and not posting, they will then give the correct scores.

 

Could they lie ? Sure, but they'd likely trip each other up if they did & the committee began asking (more) about the round.

 

Harry - "Joe, you shot 79 ? No you didn't, you told me you shot 76".

 

Committeeman - "What's that you say ? Hey Joe, what DID you shoot Tuesday ?"

 

If I can clarify further, lmk. 👍

[kiwigolf72]

I never realised how much of a mess golf in the USA was until I started reading these forums.

 

 

 

 

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I never realised how much of a mess golf in the USA was until I started reading these forums.

 

 

 

 

It's not a mess. It's just that very, very few rounds are played by the Rules of Golf and people post whatever numbers they like to GHIN. Neither of those are exactly fresh insights.

 

People enjoy playing golf whether they follow the Rules are not. They apparently don't need the approval of their (mostly fictional) handicap committee or of the Rules experts on this forum to make it around 18 holes and maybe have a fair game against their friends. 

[larrybud]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

"and played at times during the week and with each other."

 

"the committee knew who played during the week. The guys always talked about the games."

 

They are ALWAYS checking ("attesting") each other's scores during and after the games to settle bets.

 

The assumption would be, if "caught" playing and not posting, they will then give the correct scores.

 

Could they lie ? Sure, but they'd likely trip each other up if they did & the committee began asking (more) about the round.

 

Harry - "Joe, you shot 79 ? No you didn't, you told me you shot 76".

 

Committeeman - "What's that you say ? Hey Joe, what DID you shoot Tuesday ?"

 

If I can clarify further, lmk. 👍

 

'What did I shoot or what was my adjusted score?"

The committee isn't checking scores vs scorecards my friend. No way no how.

[kiwigolf72]

43 minutes ago, North Butte said:

It's not a mess. It's just that very, very few rounds are played by the Rules of Golf and people post whatever numbers they like to GHIN. Neither of those are exactly fresh insights.

 

People enjoy playing golf whether they follow the Rules are not. They apparently don't need the approval of their (mostly fictional) handicap committee or of the Rules experts on this forum to make it around 18 holes and maybe have a fair game against their friends. 

happy that people are enjoying themselves, not sure we can call not playing by the ROG golf. it's like playing tennis and not having to hit it over the net or keep it in the court, it's a game it's not tennis.

 

 

[kiwigolf72]

Do you not hand your scorecard in?

In NZ we hand our signed scorecard in, it gets scanned and it's in the system.

[North Butte]

28 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

happy that people are enjoying themselves, not sure we can call not playing by the ROG golf. it's like playing tennis and not having to hit it over the net or keep it in the court, it's a game it's not tennis.

 

 

While you could certainly make up your own word for the thing that people do every day out on a golf course, with golf clubs, hitting golf balls, they'll keep calling it golf, either way. 

[North Butte]

Just now, kiwigolf72 said:

Do you not hand your scorecard in?

In NZ we hand our signed scorecard in, it gets scanned and it's in the system.

Outside of formal tournaments, no. That's the point on which these threads always seem to gobsmack people from outside USA. I'd say 80-90% of USA golfers never, ever play in a formal tournament with scorecards. And for golfers who do play in tournaments, those represent (with rare exceptions) just a tiny fraction of the rounds they post.

There are certainly clubs in USA that have the kind of weekly comp schedule type culture you're probably used to. But I've never played at one and there aren't any such in my geographical area that I know of. 

 

Formal competition simply isn't part of the golf culture for the vast majority of USA golfers, even those who maintain a USGA handicap. It's the reason I don't think USGA will ever limit handicapping to just attested rounds. They'd be writing off 80% of their paying subscribers. 

[kiwigolf72]

In my part of the world there is no difference between a formal tournament and any other play.

You play by the ROG.

you sign your card and your marker signs your card.

Your card gets handed into the club who then enter it in the system.

This is done at all clubs across the country.

No exceptions. 

 

 

 

 

 

[North Butte]

10 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

In my part of the world there is no difference between a formal tournament and any other play.

You play by the ROG.

you sign your card and your marker signs your card.

Your card gets handed into the club who then enter it in the system.

This is done at all clubs across the country.

No exceptions. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I understand. I was briefly an overseas member at an English club with a similar culture.

 

I'm sure there are some USA clubs where that's the norm but not at any I've ever visited or been a member of and I think such clubs are fairly rare here. 

[mark m]

4 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I never realised how much of a mess golf in the USA was until I started reading these forums.

 

 

 

 

It’s hard to determine just where we are in the US. I’ll provide a few points:

 

1. The USGA doesn’t do a good job in crunching the numbers from the handicap system. They just basically share some info with the NGF who pumps out industry info that isn’t helpful. Like 25 million “golfers.” Take my cousin as an example. I play in 2 charity scrambles a year with him. Typically he doesn’t play any other rounds. Is he a “golfer”? Many others do the same? (3 or 4 rounds all year). Maybe never playing their own ball. You decide. Same with those that go to Top Golf only. 
2. How many are participating on the more legitimate side - that do one of two things: (1) Play in a nine hole “league” under a system that doesn’t use a WHS Index. But it is somewhat structured, and they play once per week in season. And (2), those that do have an official WHS Index and play and post at least 15 rounds. Why don’t they do a better job in sharing the actual stats? It’s probably under 5 million in total.

3. Many courses have groups games among their better players. Often 3 or 4 times per week. Even in my state with a 6 month season, these guys still post around 60-100 rounds per year. All played by the rules. And we putt out. That’s a lot of legitimate rounds. So percentage of rounds played under the rules is probably better than people realize due to frequency of play by these groups.

 

For me personally and many of my friends - almost every round (95%) in our scoring records is a competitive round played in one of 3 ways:

1. Our group game - often 20-30 participants - which requires an entry fee: Stroke play, ROG, putt out. 
2. Tournaments. Whether at home course, other courses, or state events.Scores are typically posted by the Committee.

3. Scratch Inter-club Fourball match play.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by mark m
Added 20-30 in group game

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, larrybud said:

 

'What did I shoot or what was my adjusted score?"

The committee isn't checking scores vs scorecards my friend. No way no how.

 

Though I never once said, nor suggested, the committee DID check scorecards, you're correct. The committee did NOT ask for scorecards, only the scores shot.

 

We basically relied on the honesty of the players playing amongst themselves for cash.

 

And the players were <10 handicaps, so not likely to need Equitable Stroke Control very often. So I guess if a score here or there was off by a shot, oh well,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[larrybud]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Though I never once said, nor suggested, the committee DID check scorecards, you're correct. The committee did NOT ask for scorecards, only the scores shot.

 

We basically relied on the honesty of the players playing amongst themselves for cash.

 

And the players were <10 handicaps, so not likely to need Equitable Stroke Control very often. So I guess if a score here or there was off by a shot, oh well,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Right, just as any other system in the US, relied on the honesty of the players. The committee had no effect on any of it, they had no idea if the scores entered were accurate.

Just an FYI, since ESC limits are relative to the player's index, they essentially kick in as often for low caps as for high caps.

[larrybud]

2 hours ago, North Butte said:

Outside of formal tournaments, no. That's the point on which these threads always seem to gobsmack people from outside USA. I'd say 80-90% of USA golfers never, ever play in a formal tournament with scorecards. And for golfers who do play in tournaments, those represent (with rare exceptions) just a tiny fraction of the rounds they post.

 

Exactly. I find myself playing in just about any tournament that I'm eligible for, and it still goes that a small percentage of my scores for the year are competition scores, and even smaller number that are actually attested. Even my home club's Club Championship, I post those myself, nobody is verifying anything.

[kiwigolf72]

1 minute ago, larrybud said:

 

Exactly. I find myself playing in just about any tournament that I'm eligible for, and it still goes that a small percentage of my scores for the year are competition scores, and even smaller number that are actually attested. Even my home club's Club Championship, I post those myself, nobody is verifying anything.

what? so no marker signature?

[larrybud]

2 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

Do you not hand your scorecard in?

In NZ we hand our signed scorecard in, it gets scanned and it's in the system.

 

No. Here's how the VAST majority of rounds work in the US:

 

• You call your buddies up and ask if they'd like to play some golf this weekend, then discuss which course you want to play.  I probably have 40 courses within an hours drive of my house.
• You can call the course up to book your tee time, or book your tee time online. 
• You get to the course, each player pays the cashier, or, if booked online, the entire foursome may have been paid for in advance. 
• You play the round of golf, by the rules or not, then you go home.
• You then log into the GHIN app on your phone or go to the GHIN website, select the course you play, and enter your score either by front 9/back 9 totals (manually adjusting for ESC), or by entering hole by hole, where the system automatically applies ESC.

 

 

[larrybud]

4 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

what? so no marker signature?

 

In tournaments you will have a marker signature, but that has nothing to do with the posting of the score for handicapping purposes. The only tournament scores which are officially attested as far as handicapping is done by my State's Golf Association, and that's only for the tournaments that they are running. They enter the scores for the players themselves. All other scores are entered by the player (or not entered by the player, or not entered accurately/honestly by the player).

Edited October 31, 2023 by larrybud

[kiwigolf72]

I stand by my earlier statement-what a mess the USA system is in. 

 

[Nels55]

4 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

In tournaments you will have a marker signature, but that has nothing to do with the posting of the score for handicapping purposes. The only tournament scores which are officially attested as far as handicapping is done by my State's Golf Association, and that's only for the tournaments that they are running. They enter the scores for the players themselves. All other scores are entered by the player (or not entered by the player, or not entered accurately/honestly by the player).

Our scores are automatically entered to GHIN for all of our club tournaments other then two man scrambles and the like.  Always have been.  

[larrybud]

1 minute ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I stand by my earlier statement-what a mess the USA system is in. 

 

It's not a mess if you don't play tournaments, but yes, NET tournaments are a bit of a joke because of the 10% or so who have BS handicaps. 

 

Almost all of my tournaments these days are GROSS, except for a couple of 2-man events in which I team up with a buddy, and I just do that because it's fun to play on the team with him.

[North Butte]

6 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I stand by my earlier statement-what a mess the USA system is in. 

 

It looks like a mess to people who think golf revolves around formal competitions. Or if I were being uncharitable, people who are unable to enjoy the essence of the game without all the scorecard-and-pencil trappings of formal competition. 

 

I know for my own part, I play golf 150+ times a year and it would not add one iota to my enjoyment if I were doing the signed scorecard thing. 

 

Almost all of my non-solo-round play is informal competition for a few dollars with various groupings drawn from the 20-30 guys I know and play regularly with. We all type in our scores to GHIN, it spits out a handicap, we put our money in the pot and whichever team has the lowest net composite score wins. These guys have been playing that way since long before I joined the club two decades ago. We don't need any attestation, we trust each to to punch the scores in.

Edited October 31, 2023 by North Butte

[larrybud]

3 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Our scores are automatically entered to GHIN for all of our club tournaments other then two man scrambles and the like.  Always have been.  

 

How many club tournaments do you have year? My club has a whopping 3, and they don't post scores.

[Shilgy]

11 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

Right, just as any other system in the US, relied on the honesty of the players. The committee had no effect on any of it, they had no idea if the scores entered were accurate.

Just an FYI, since ESC limits are relative to the player's index, they essentially kick in as often for low caps as for high caps.

You’re making this harder than it is.  Ideally yes, the committee does serve a function.  Let’s say Larry Bud is a member of a club or even just plays a game at the local muni with a regular group.  When playing with a group you question one of the players handicap.  You go online the next day and notice he posted 85 instead of the 76 you know he shot.  And yes, if you are “members “ at the same course for GHIN purposes you can see date played…score posted…and course played for every play that keeps his handicap there.  So if you are a member at Rochester Hills Municipal you can see that info for everyone else that keeps their handicap through them.  
That is where @2bGood’s comment about a good or poor committee comes in.  With a course run event they’ll want handicaps to be legit and can do “something” to make the cheat comply.

 

Is it as good as the international card system? No.  But for now it’s what we have and you can do your part to weed out sandbagging if you choose.

[Nels55]

4 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

How many club tournaments do you have year? My club has a whopping 3, and they don't post scores.

Two per month plus various team competitions and weekly twilight league during the summer.  All rounds posted!

[kiwigolf72]

 

7 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

How many club tournaments do you have year? My club has a whopping 3, and they don't post scores.

At my cub there is always organised Saturday golf and the old boys play a haggle on Wednesday.

If I go out during the week with some mates, we all play by the ROG and hand a card in. The club posts the score, there needs to be 2 signatures on the card, all I need to do is give the card to the club.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by kiwigolf72
edit

[kiwigolf72]

The USA has created a system of letting people post their own scores and then complain that they have a sandbagging problem, crazy!