WHS Rule Changes for 2024

[DaveLeeNC]

A golf acquaintance recently told me that the procedures for handling "holes not played" would be changing in 2024. But he had no details. Is anyone aware of changes in this area for next year?

 

dave

[davep043]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

A golf acquaintance recently told me that the procedures for handling "holes not played" would be changing in 2024. But he had no details. Is anyone aware of changes in this area for next year?

 

dave

I haven't heard anything, but I've been certain that future revisions were likely.  2024 would put these revisions on a 4-year cycle, one year behind the Rule of Golf.

[antip]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

A golf acquaintance recently told me that the procedures for handling "holes not played" would be changing in 2024. But he had no details. Is anyone aware of changes in this area for next year?

 

dave

Not aware of any specific changes here, but the mechanisms for change are a) the quarterly clarifications publications - sometimes there is something, often there is not - and b) the 4 yearly more significant re-think. The next clarification date is 1/1/24.

 

The USGA has already flagged that a theme for the 2027 release is a re-write of Rule 8 and they are currently working on that. 

[sui generis]

36 minutes ago, antip said:

The USGA has already flagged that a theme for the 2027 release is a re-write of Rule 8 and they are currently working on that. 

 

That's interesting. In late 2018 at a PGA/USGA Rules Workshop the USGA instructor was Mark Reinemann, then the Chairman of the USGA Rules Committee and one of those who had been in on the modernization project from the start. When we got around to Rule 8, he commented that Rule 8 would be the one area that, on the course, might present us with some enforcement problems.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Not aware of any specific changes here, but the mechanisms for change are a) the quarterly clarifications publications - sometimes there is something, often there is not - and b) the 4 yearly more significant re-think. The next clarification date is 1/1/24.

 

The USGA has already flagged that a theme for the 2027 release is a re-write of Rule 8 and they are currently working on that. 

Of course that would be "working on that" along with the R&A.

[Augster]

I had heard they are going to remove (in the US WHS) posting match play scores to come more in line with the ROTW. I doubt it’ll be this revision, but more likely in 4 years. 
 

But if they could sneak it in this year, I’d be playing way more stroke play. 

[klebs01]

On 10/20/2023 at 7:14 PM, Augster said:

I had heard they are going to remove (in the US WHS) posting match play scores to come more in line with the ROTW. I doubt it’ll be this revision, but more likely in 4 years. 
 

But if they could sneak it in this year, I’d be playing way more stroke play. 

That would be a major change. Not sure many people in my region would have a valid handicap. Scores might remain on the card for a decade. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by klebs01

[bluedot]

2 hours ago, klebs01 said:

That would be a major change. Not sure many people in my region would have a valid handicap. Scores might remain on the card for a decade. 

It would not only be a major change, but an odd one, given that assigning strokes to holes for match play is one of the main purposes of indexes.  But I’ll never underestimate the ability of the USGA to make odd rules.

[antip]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

It would not only be a major change, but an odd one, given that assigning strokes to holes for match play is one of the main purposes of indexes.  But I’ll never underestimate the ability of the USGA to make odd rules.

Two observations:

a) it is nothing to do with the Rules of Golf - it is solely handicapping practices

b) I don't know anywhere else that has ever included match play scores in their handicapping systems.

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

Two observations:

a) it is nothing to do with the Rules of Golf - it is solely handicapping practices

b) I don't know anywhere else that has ever included match play scores in their handicapping systems.

It's a great way to get in lots of on-course practice without impacting your handicap index. The concept of "most likely score" does freak out the rest of the world pretty badly. Impact in the US will likely be spotty since many regions and/or clubs play very little match play or seem to play alot.

 

I don't care since I play very little match play. Less than 30 matches over my golfing life of 35+ years.

[Augster]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

It's a great way to get in lots of on-course practice without impacting your handicap index. The concept of "most likely score" does freak out the rest of the world pretty badly. Impact in the US will likely be spotty since many regions and/or clubs play very little match play or seem to play alot.

 

I don't care since I play very little match play. Less than 30 matches over my golfing life of 35+ years.

?

 

Do you mean formal match play matches or everyday match play Nassau’s with your friends? 
 

I have a $1 Nassau with one friend and a 3-3-4 with another every time we play together. Literally thousands of matches. 
 

Or do you just bet using stroke play? I used to, it made it simpler to have games with many people, but my driving is so bad now I have too many blow up holes to play stroke play. 
 

 

[DLiver]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:14 PM, Augster said:

I had heard they are going to remove (in the US WHS) posting match play scores to come more in line with the ROTW. I doubt it’ll be this revision, but more likely in 4 years.

This would put a serious dent in our ability to police sandbaggers IMO.

[rogolf]

For many, many years, the only game that was played within the group(s) that I played in was 4BBB, match play, whether it was a $2 Nassau, honour of the regiment, or a grudge match.  Even club championships and other club competitions were match play.  We posted all of those scores for handicap purposes.  Stroke play was more for opens.

(BTW, I'm from North America, just north of Montana/Idaho.)

Edited October 23, 2023 by rogolf

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, Augster said:

?

 

Do you mean formal match play matches or everyday match play Nassau’s with your friends? 
 

I have a $1 Nassau with one friend and a 3-3-4 with another every time we play together. Literally thousands of matches. 
 

Or do you just bet using stroke play? I used to, it made it simpler to have games with many people, but my driving is so bad now I have too many blow up holes to play stroke play. 
 

 

Primarily play with a couple different women's groups these days. No one bets and we play match play once a year. I have never played a Nassau with anyone. Used to play a team stroke play betting game for peanut money.

[klebs01]

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

For many, many years, the only game that was played within the group(s) that I played in was 4BBB, match play, whether it was a $2 Nassau, honour of the regiment, or a grudge match.  Even club championships and other club competitions were match play.  We posted all of those scores for handicap purposes.  Stroke play was more for opens.

(BTW, I'm from North America, just north of Montana/Idaho.)

That’s how it is around me at multiple clubs. More than one round of stroke play a year would be a lot. Only time anyone played it was in state or USGA events. Maybe a club championship qualifier. Every else is match play. 

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, rogolf said:

For many, many years, the only game that was played within the group(s) that I played in was 4BBB, match play, whether it was a $2 Nassau, honour of the regiment, or a grudge match.  Even club championships and other club competitions were match play.  We posted all of those scores for handicap purposes.  Stroke play was more for opens.

(BTW, I'm from North America, just north of Montana/Idaho.)

Why not say Canada?🤔

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Why not say Canada?🤔

I'm also "North of Phoenix".  😀

And we're a part of R&A.

Edited October 24, 2023 by rogolf

[Shilgy]

Just now, rogolf said:

I'm also "North of Phoenix".  😀

Ya got me!🤣

[ThinkingPlus]

Actually, I went back through all my matches I have played. There are so few, I can remember them all. BTW, I really don't care for match play and prefer stroke play either handicapped or not.

 

There were 17 formal competition matches. Of those, 14 were played at scratch, but flighted, while the remaining 3 were handicapped. I was 13-1 in the 14 scratch matches and 2-1 in the handicapped affairs.

 

I also have played 2 semi-casual matches against a couple of guys.  Both were handicapped, but we casually determined no strokes given/taken.  One was for $5. The other was for an amount I can't remember, but money ended up going to charity. I won both.

[antip]

2 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

It's a great way to get in lots of on-course practice without impacting your handicap index. The concept of "most likely score" does freak out the rest of the world pretty badly. Impact in the US will likely be spotty since many regions and/or clubs play very little match play or seem to play alot.

 

I don't care since I play very little match play. Less than 30 matches over my golfing life of 35+ years.

The cultural differences of play in the US mean the issues can be very different. Here (Oz) and in places like the UK and NZ, a much higher proportion of play is in an organized competition setting. Many folk I know only play their 1-3 games a week in competition, they virtually never play outside a competition framework. That is really common here. A happy side product is there is less scope (not suggesting it doesn't happen) for sandbagging behaviour (here referred to as "bandits" or "burglars").   

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

The cultural differences of play in the US mean the issues can be very different. Here (Oz) and in places like the UK and NZ, a much higher proportion of play is in an organized competition setting. Many folk I know only play their 1-3 games a week in competition, they virtually never play outside a competition framework. That is really common here. A happy side product is there is less scope (not suggesting it doesn't happen) for sandbagging behaviour (here referred to as "bandits" or "burglars").   

I understand. One of the more interesting things I've learned prowling GolfWRX.

[st1800e]

4 hours ago, antip said:

b) I don't know anywhere else that has ever included match play scores in their handicapping systems.

Canada.  

[davep043]

17 hours ago, klebs01 said:

That would be a major change. Not sure many people in my region would have a valid handicap. Scores might remain on the card for a decade. 

Oddly enough, players might adjust their behavior to changes in Rules.  

15 hours ago, bluedot said:

It would not only be a major change, but an odd one, given that assigning strokes to holes for match play is one of the main purposes of indexes.  But I’ll never underestimate the ability of the USGA to make odd rules.

You might be aware that the USGA isn't alone in developing and revising the WORLD Handicap System rules.  I expect the handicap system to evolve, and for many or most of the differences between different regions to be eliminated.  I don't know about excluding match play scores, I believe I read that one of the jurisdictions in the British Isles was likely to begin allowing match play scores to be posted.  Either way, many US golfers will continue to post whatever they choose, without any requirement for attestation.

I've said it before, that's one change I'd like to see adopted in the USGA-controlled areas, pre-registration and attestation for non-competition scores.  From what I understand, it works pretty simply in England, all done through their phone app.  For anyone who complains about sandbagging, that should be eagerly accepted.

[Newby]

GB & I will be introducing (CR - Par) into the CH calculation to bring us into line with the RoW.

[Augster]

23 minutes ago, Newby said:

GB & I will be introducing (CR - Par) into the CH calculation to bring us into line with the RoW.

I forgot that you folks aren’t using that yet. It seems second nature using it in the US now and makes playing fair games from different tee boxes very easy. 

[Newby]

27 minutes ago, Augster said:

I forgot that you folks aren’t using that yet. It seems second nature using it in the US now and makes playing fair games from different tee boxes very easy. 

Not really convinced about that but it does mean that 36 points means playing to handicap, which many seem to think is a good idea. It doesn't bother me because I always take adjusted gross against CR anyway.

[klebs01]

11 hours ago, davep043 said:

Oddly enough, players might adjust their behavior to changes in Rules. 

Behavior may change, not sure playing stroke play will be the change. May be posting outside the rules or using an alternate system. 

[SNIPERBBB]

Match play scores is just weird to me for posting for handicap. Core principle of the handicap system is to make the best score possible on each hole. That goes out the window in match play. You're playing to beat your opponent which isnt always mean trying to make the best score possible.

[DaveLeeNC]

7 hours ago, Newby said:

I always take adjusted gross against CR anyway.

 

@NewbyI am a strong believer in the value of the CR-Par adjustment (just to explain my personal bias). But what does the sentence above mean? Thanks. 

 

dave

[GaHack1]

Holes not played will now be automatically calculated to the probable score based on handicap, course rating, playing conditions etc.  They must enter scores hole by hole and leave holes not played as blank. The next revision of the GHIN app is going to facilitate this.

 

The other changes are posting 9-hole scores. They will no longer be combined with another 9-hole score. The 9-hole score you post will be scaled up to an 18-hole score using the same formula to arrive at probable scores. Starting in January you must play 9 holes to post a 9-hole score but only 10 to post an 18-hole score. 

 

Holes started but not completed will still use the most likely score.