WHS Rule Changes for 2024

[North Butte]

1 minute ago, kiwigolf72 said:

The USA has created a system of letting people post their own scores and then complain that they have a sandbagging problem, crazy!

Correct. There is no way on earth to minimize sandbagging without attesting scores. None, no amount of magic algorithms and after-the-fact adjustment will change that. 

 

But the USGA has a problem. If they only sell handicaps to those who want to sign cards, turn them into the proshop, etc. then they roll the clock back 30+ years to the days when only members of organized, mostly private clubs maintained USGA handicaps. They decided in the 1990's they want to expand the system to include the other 80% or so of people who played golf and folks by and large don't play golf in the type of highly regimented environment you have at your club. 

 

There are literally millions of USGA handicap holders who would simply not post if the system required them to hand in signed cards to an actual, flesh-and-blood "committee" every time they played golf. It goes completely against the mainstream golf culture in USA. And USGA is not willing to lose those customers. 

 

I do wonder if one day USGA will bifurcate the system and run two kinds of handicaps in parallel within GHIN or its successor. Formal handicaps, in the sense that the Rest Of The World does them, and informal handicaps in the way that most people use GHIN now.  

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, North Butte said:

Correct. There is no way on earth to minimize sandbagging without attesting scores. None, no amount of magic algorithms and after-the-fact adjustment will change that. 

 

But the USGA has a problem. If they only sell handicaps to those who want to sign cards, turn them into the proshop, etc. then they roll the clock back 30+ years to the days when only members of organized, mostly private clubs maintained USGA handicaps. They decided in the 1990's they want to expand the system to include the other 80% or so of people who played golf and folks by and large don't play golf in the type of highly regimented environment you have at your club. 

 

There are literally millions of USGA handicap holders who would simply not post if the system required them to hand in signed cards to an actual, flesh-and-blood "committee" every time they played golf. It goes completely against the mainstream golf culture in USA. And USGA is not willing to lose those customers. 

 

I do wonder if one day USGA will bifurcate the system and run two kinds of handicaps in parallel within GHIN or its successor. Formal handicaps, in the sense that the Rest Of The World does them, and informal handicaps in the way that most people use GHIN now.  

You could…but are you telling me attested cards eliminates sandbagging?
Hogwash!

 

Most sandbaggers are way more subtle than an attested card would fix.  Not sure what game the guys like @kiwigolf72 play.  Is it always/usually match play? Stableford?  A true sandbagger doesn’t need to not post or pad a posted score to accomplish his goal.  If playing a team game he just messes up on holes he’s not needed by the team..or misses the putts he would normally make.  Even playing stableford he can pad on bad days to raise the handicap a bit.

 

And yeah, I’ve seen all of the above here.

[kiwigolf72]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You could…but are you telling me attested cards eliminates sandbagging?
Hogwash!

 

Most sandbaggers are way more subtle than an attested card would fix.  Not sure what game the guys like @kiwigolf72 play.  Is it always/usually match play? Stableford?  A true sandbagger doesn’t need to not post or pad a posted score to accomplish his goal.  If playing a team game he just messes up on holes he’s not needed by the team..or misses the putts he would normally make.  Even playing stableford he can pad on bad days to raise the handicap a bit.

 

And yeah, I’ve seen all of the above here.

The majority of club run competitions would either be medal or stbfd. We don't play any team games.

[kiwigolf72]

 

Down here the only way you can get a HC is to be a member of a golf course.

People who don't want to be a member can still play at courses they just need to pay green fees and of course can't enter any tournaments as they have no HC.

Membership prices vary, I pay $1000nzd per year and then on a Saturday the competition costs me $10.

My membership gets me unlimited golf for the year.

Some other courses in my area are cheaper with a couple offering $500 membership.I use to play at a course that was $3500nzd, which was top end.

All the HCs are run through the club and administered by the governing body,NZ Golf.

For most people who play regularly, a membership is eventually cheaper than paying green fees all the time, plus the advantages of playing during peak times and use of the facilities.

Most regular golfers are members and have an official HC.

Cards are expected to be posted after every round and have to be signed by a marker. They are then posted on a NZ golf website where everybody can see them.

I'm not saying NZ doesn't have players who manipulate their HCs but it would appear to be completely different than the USA where the system that has been set up actually makes it easy for people to cheat.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by kiwigolf72
Added

[st1800e]

17 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

Down here the only way you can get a HC is to be a member of a golf course.

https://www.golf.co.nz/flexiclub

[North Butte]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You could…but are you telling me attested cards eliminates sandbagging?
Hogwash!

No, I am not saying attested scorecards make it impossible to sandbag. 

But letting people type literally any number they like into an app and create a bespoke handicap makes it trivially easy.

 

Your argument is akin to saying, "Are you telling me that double-locking the doors of your house and having an alarm system makes burglary impossible? Hogwash!" and then say you just leave the doors open when you're out. Or saying seatbelts and airbags are useless because you can still get killed in a car wreck. 

 

Hogwash, indeed.

[kiwigolf72]

1 minute ago, st1800e said:

https://www.golf.co.nz/flexiclub

Yip which is still a membership of sorts

[North Butte]

18 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

 

Down here the only way you can get a HC is to be a member of a golf course.

People who don't want to be a member can still play at courses they just need to pay green fees and of course can't enter any tournaments as they have no HC.

Membership prices vary, I pay $1000nzd per year and then on a Saturday the competition costs me $10.

My membership gets me unlimited golf for the year.

Some other courses in my area are cheaper with a couple offering $500 membership.I use to play at a course that was $3500nzd, which was top end.

All the HCs are run through the club and administered by the governing body,NZ Golf.

For most people who play regularly, a membership is eventually cheaper than paying green fees all the time, plus the advantages of playing during peak times and use of the facilities.

Most regular golfers are members and have an official HC.

Cards are expected to be posted after every round and have to be signed by a marker. They are then posted on a NZ golf website where everybody can see them.

I'm not saying NZ doesn't have players who manipulate their HCs but it would appear to be completely different than the USA where the system that has been set up actually makes it easy for people to cheat.

 

 

That's a basically closed system built to provide handicapping for a very specific type of golfer in a specific type of club. 

 

Among people for whom virtually the only golf they play is in formal competitions, it's not hard at all to keep sandbagging to a minimum. USGA chose, rightly or wrongly, to offer handicaps to everyone including those for whom all golf is casual play. That makes it a MUCH tougher task to deal with sandbagging and I understand that. But they (USGA) aren't even trying, as you say their wide open GHIN approach just punts on the whole sandbagging and vanity issues. 

 

The part I find insulting is all their poppycock about what "the committee" is supposed to do about policing posting, when in fact most golfers have no peer review happening whatsoever. 

[kiwigolf72]

5 minutes ago, North Butte said:

That's a basically closed system built to provide handicapping for a very specific type of golfer in a specific type of club. 

 

Among people for whom virtually the only golf they play is in formal competitions, it's not hard at all to keep sandbagging to a minimum. USGA chose, rightly or wrongly, to offer handicaps to everyone including those for whom all golf is casual play. That makes it a MUCH tougher task to deal with sandbagging and I understand that. But they (USGA) aren't even trying, as you say their wide open GHIN approach just punts on the whole sandbagging and vanity issues. 

 

The part I find insulting is all their poppycock about what "the committee" is supposed to do about policing posting, when in fact most golfers have no peer review happening whatsoever. 

Most not all clubs welcome green fee players, golfers who don't want to participate in the club set up still have plenty of opportunities to play their version of golf.

Their version of golf just doesn't have a HC, but if they are not entering competitions then really that doesn't matter.

Edited October 31, 2023 by kiwigolf72
Added

[st1800e]

0

1 minute ago, kiwigolf72 said:

Yip which is still a membership of sorts

Hmm, your original comment stated a person  can only get a handicap as  “a member of a golf course” and you were trying to make a significant point with that “fact”.  

The  fact is anyone in NZ can get a handicap without being a member of a golf course.  

 

 

[kiwigolf72]

9 hours ago, st1800e said:

0

Hmm, your original comment stated a person  can only get a handicap as  “a member of a golf course” and you were trying to make a significant point with that “fact”.  

The  fact is anyone in NZ can get a handicap without being a member of a golf course.  

 

 

Sorry that wasn't my intention, yes you can join the flexiclub. It is a form of membership through NZ golf. 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by kiwigolf72
spelling

[kiwigolf72]

37 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

Sorry that wasn't my intention, yes you can join the flexiclub. Is is a form of membership through NZ golf. 

 

It still maintains exactly the same principles, cards must be posted and signed by a marker and handed into the club at the end of the round.

I have played with exactly 0 flexiclub members ever.

It was an idea to try to attract golfers who were not a member of a club, but with $150 membership then paying $30- $50 green fees  everytime they play, most golfers just joined their local club., but technically you are right, you can get a HC by joining the flexiclub, which is administered by the the same governing body that looks after club members HCs, making it a type of club membership but with not many playing rights.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by kiwigolf72
Added

[Newby]

39 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

It still maintains exactly the same principles, cards must be posted and signed by a marker and handed into the club at the end of the round.

I have played with exactly 0 flexiclub members ever.

It was an idea to try to attract golfers who were not a member of a club, but with $150 membership then paying $30- $50 green fees  everytime they play, most golfers just joined their local club., but technically you are right, you can get a HC by joining the flexiclub, which is administered by the the same governing body that looks after club members HCs, making it a type of club membership but with not many playing rights.

 

Much the same as England and I think the rest of GB&I

[kiwigolf72]

1 minute ago, Newby said:

Much the same as England and I think the rest of GB&I

and Australia 

[bcjim]

Here in the US,  most net events are among members of the same club where there is some oversight.  

In other,  open events,  I don't think too many people care about net score. I don't.  My HC is simply so I can enter and play in the appropriate flight or with similarly skilled players. If I had no HC, I'd typically have to play as a 0 and likely from the tips.

 

And if course there is not much match play over here,  especially outside of private courses.

[North Butte]

I would imagine green-fee golfers in non-USA countries still probably play handicapped matches with their friends. The NZ Golf handicap system just doesn't provide them an app for doing it.

 

I mean if there's a guy who shoots in the 70's playing a match against his friend who is a bogey golfer, he's going to give him some negotiated number of strokes to avoid the match being hopelessly one-sided. The USGA handicap system is full of golfers who use GHIN for exactly that sort of thing. "What's your GHIN?" (i.e. your handicap) is a common question on the first tee when people meet and decide to have a friendly game of some kind.  

 

Whether USGA admits it or not, for the vast majority of their subscribers it is all 100% an honor system. When you put ten bucks up against someone you don't know and he says his GHIN handicap is 12, you're taking him at his word for it. The system just provides a framework for tracking the rounds he enters under the honor system. 

 

Clubs which do formal peer review, scorecards, whatever can also use GHIN as their way of tracking handicaps. But it's all on the club or group running the comps to provide the non-honor-system part of the peer review. I'm not saying it's never done, just that such clubs represent a tiny percentage of rounds and handicaps in GHIN. 

 

P.S. It was before I took up golf 30 years ago but my understanding is there was a time (maybe into the 1980's?) when USGA handicaps were almost exactly like what you're describing in NZ. Almost entirely limited to members of private clubs, it was all based on turning in attested scorecards, etc. USGA made a conscious decision to "open up" the system right before I started playing golf in the 1990's. 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by North Butte

[Schulzmc]

12 hours ago, larrybud said:

Just an FYI, since ESC limits are relative to the player's index, they essentially kick in as often for low caps as for high caps.

I’m a 9 and I can’t remember the last time I had more than a net double bogie and had to adjust my score. I play with a guy who is a 20 who has at least 2 holes a round that need to be adjusted. But it is still a simple matter of adjusting his total score. I don’t see the need to ever post the hole by hole scores.

[Nels55]

18 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I’m a 9 and I can’t remember the last time I had more than a net double bogie and had to adjust my score. I play with a guy who is a 20 who has at least 2 holes a round that need to be adjusted. But it is still a simple matter of adjusting his total score. I don’t see the need to ever post the hole by hole scores.

I'm the same level as you and I have adjusted strokes quite often, somewhere around half of my rounds.  Big numbers are easy to do on the course that I play.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, North Butte said:

No, I am not saying attested scorecards make it impossible to sandbag. 

But letting people type literally any number they like into an app and create a bespoke handicap makes it trivially easy.

 

Your argument is akin to saying, "Are you telling me that double-locking the doors of your house and having an alarm system makes burglary impossible? Hogwash!" and then say you just leave the doors open when you're out. Or saying seatbelts and airbags are useless because you can still get killed in a car wreck. 

 

Hogwash, indeed.

In the private club they are typically weeded out quickly. And shunned. That’s been my experience for 36-some years at private clubs.

 

4 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

 

Down here the only way you can get a HC is to be a member of a golf course.

People who don't want to be a member can still play at courses they just need to pay green fees and of course can't enter any tournaments as they have no HC.

Membership prices vary, I pay $1000nzd per year and then on a Saturday the competition costs me $10.

My membership gets me unlimited golf for the year.

Some other courses in my area are cheaper with a couple offering $500 membership.I use to play at a course that was $3500nzd, which was top end.

All the HCs are run through the club and administered by the governing body,NZ Golf.

For most people who play regularly, a membership is eventually cheaper than paying green fees all the time, plus the advantages of playing during peak times and use of the facilities.

Most regular golfers are members and have an official HC.

Cards are expected to be posted after every round and have to be signed by a marker. They are then posted on a NZ golf website where everybody can see them.

I'm not saying NZ doesn't have players who manipulate their HCs but it would appear to be completely different than the USA where the system that has been set up actually makes it easy for people to cheat.

 

 

I’m certainly jealous of the pricing! You pay less per year than our members do per month!  Here in Arizona the clubs water bill alone is more than that would cover.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, North Butte said:

I would imagine green-fee golfers in non-USA countries still probably play handicapped matches with their friends. The NZ Golf handicap system just doesn't provide them an app for doing it.

 

I mean if there's a guy who shoots in the 70's playing a match against his friend who is a bogey golfer, he's going to give him some negotiated number of strokes to avoid the match being hopelessly one-sided. The USGA handicap system is full of golfers who use GHIN for exactly that sort of thing. "What's your GHIN?" (i.e. your handicap) is a common question on the first tee when people meet and decide to have a friendly game of some kind.  

 

Whether USGA admits it or not, for the vast majority of their subscribers it is all 100% an honor system. When you put ten bucks up against someone you don't know and he says his GHIN handicap is 12, you're taking him at his word for it. The system just provides a framework for tracking the rounds he enters under the honor system. 

 

Clubs which do formal peer review, scorecards, whatever can also use GHIN as their way of tracking handicaps. But it's all on the club or group running the comps to provide the non-honor-system part of the peer review. I'm not saying it's never done, just that such clubs represent a tiny percentage of rounds and handicaps in GHIN. 

 

P.S. It was before I took up golf 30 years ago but my understanding is there was a time (maybe into the 1980's?) when USGA handicaps were almost exactly like what you're describing in NZ. Almost entirely limited to members of private clubs, it was all based on turning in attested scorecards, etc. USGA made a conscious decision to "open up" the system right before I started playing golf in the 1990's. 

 

 

That’s pretty much correct. I first joined a club in ‘87 and we turned in cards along with a large scoring sheet where you wrote in your name and score.  They matched that sheet with the cards  and posted the scores.  
 

And back then our handicap was updated twice per month.

 

So yes, it eliminated guys posting the wrong score but a player could certainly fudge his score with intentional misses on the green etc.

[kiwigolf72]

I'm pretty sure there would be some sort of online HC system people could use, I'm also pretty sure if someone can shoot in the 70s they are probably a member some where.

Because of the affordable price I'm guessing a very small amount of regular players are not members of a GC.

 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

That’s pretty much correct. I first joined a club in ‘87 and we turned in cards along with a large scoring sheet where you wrote in your name and score.  They matched that sheet with the cards  and posted the scores.  
 

And back then our handicap was updated twice per month.

 

So yes, it eliminated guys posting the wrong score but a player could certainly fudge his score with intentional misses on the green etc.

 

Yup. I remember those sheets. Carbon paper. Club kept a copy and sent the sheet to the local association who then calc'd the 'caps and sent back those little stickers that had the last 20 scores on them along with the new handicap index.

 

But, as pointed out often, as water's seeks its level, cheaters gonna cheat.

 

Going forward, with all the automation going on, perhaps the golf courses and handicap services can eventually tie together the players and dates played if only to stop NB's primary(?) complaint of people just entering phony scores via the internet to manipulate their cap. Not the easiest thing to do, but doable.

 

Guess time will tell.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

Going forward, with all the automation going on, perhaps the golf courses and handicap services can eventually tie together the players and dates played if only to stop NB's primary(?) complaint of people just entering phony scores via the internet to manipulate their cap. Not the easiest thing to do, but doable.

As I understand it, in England they DO have such a system.  Competition scores are posted by the club.  "Casual" scores MUST be pre-registered, a simple thing through their phone app.  You must identify another player in your group, you must enter your score if you've pre-registered, and your score is sent (electronically) to the other player for attestation.  At least this system requires TWO players to be involved to cheat the system.  And I know some folks will say this absolutely can never work in the US.  I think they're wrong, I would encourage the USGA to move in this direction in the future.

[rogolf]

Certainly in this thread the USGA system (and its users!) are being painted in a very poor light (also by its users).  Sounds like a lot of abusers.

[kiwigolf72]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Certainly in this thread the USGA system (and its users!) are being painted in a very poor light (also by its users).  Sounds like a lot of abusers.

I hope I wasn't doing that, it's hard to compare systems from different countries as the setup is completely different.

I totally understand the USGA trying to make golf more accessible, but by doing so they have seemingly created a flawed system where you can sit at home and post what you want with no real way of anybody checking the validity of the posted card.

Not sure what the answer is but when I read about the problem of false HCs in the USA this IMO is probably one of the reasons why.

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Certainly in this thread the USGA system (and its users!) are being painted in a very poor light (also by its users).  Sounds like a lot of abusers.

I think that many of those who aren't part of a club with an active handicap committee have a pretty negative image of the system as a whole.  I don't share that opinion, but I do think that we'd be better off if we learn from our friends around the world.

Another part of this is that those who dislike the system are often the most vocal and persistent.  I know I stepped away from this discussion, minds are not going to be changed, so I chose not to waste my efforts.  I actually think we're headed in the right direction, but true unification is still a ways off.

Edited October 31, 2023 by davep043

[bluedot]

34 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Certainly in this thread the USGA system (and its users!) are being painted in a very poor light (also by its users).  Sounds like a lot of abusers.

I’ll piggyback on this just a bit.

 

I spent several years at a previous club as president of a very large and VERY active MGA.  We ran a lot of flighted net events, and between myself and the head pro, we knew pretty much everybody.  
 

Of course, complaints came up about sandbagging, but when we looked closely at the complaints, we found a recurring theme in the vast majority of the cases.  The person MAKING the complaint was not only a lower handicapper, but usually a player that we KNEW had a vanity handicap; mulligans off the first tee, didn’t putt out, didn’t take stroke and distance penalties, didn’t play out of divots, and on and on.  Meanwhile, the person about whom the complaint was being MADE was not only carrying a higher index, but was most often a player who DID play fully under the Rules of Golf.  
 

And there’s a synergy to this; the vanity guy all of a sudden has to make 3’ putts, play out of crappy lies, and accept high scores.  He’s favored to win and feels pressure, then starts to press when he is faced with a real score.  His higher index opponent, on the other hand, just played like he always played, and prospered for it.

 

Were there legitimate cases of sandbagging? Of course, but not anywhere close to as many as this thread implies.  We would check out the complaints every time; most were scores within a reasonable range and the rest were as described above.  There were times when the only thing we could say to the person making the complaint, if they wouldn’t let it go, was, “Maybe you should consider not playing in any more net events.”  
 

The system is designed, literally, to give lesser players a chance to compete (sort of) equally against better players, and that means lesser players will often win.  Better players don’t like that, and often resort to yelling “Sandbagger,” to anyone who will listen, in the same way that fans blame referees when their favorite team loses.

 

And one more thing that I’ve already mentioned.  A much bigger problem for us in flighted net events were the vanity guys because they screw up the flights and really skew the results.

Edited October 31, 2023 by bluedot

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

I’ll piggyback on this just a bit.

 

I spent several years at a previous club as president of a very large and VERY active MGA.  We ran a lot of flighted net events, and between myself and the head pro, we knew pretty much everybody.  
 

Of course, complaints came up about sandbagging, but when we looked closely at the complaints, we found a recurring theme in the vast majority of the cases.  The person MAKING the complaint was not only a lower handicapper, but usually a player that we KNEW had a vanity handicap; mulligans off the first tee, didn’t putt out, didn’t take stroke and distance penalties, didn’t play out of divots, and on and on.  Meanwhile, the person about whom the complaint was being MADE was not only carrying a higher index, but was most often a player who DID play fully under the Rules of Golf.  
 

And there’s a synergy to this; the vanity guy all of a sudden has to make 3’ putts, play out of crappy lies, and accept high scores.  He’s favored to win and feels pressure, then starts to press when he is faced with a real score.  His higher index opponent, on the other hand, just played like he always played, and prospered for it.

 

Were there legitimate cases of sandbagging? Of course, but not anywhere close to as many as this thread implies.  We would check out the complaints every time; most were scores within a reasonable range and the rest were as described above.  There were times when the only thing we could say to the person making the complaint, if they wouldn’t let it go, was, “Maybe you should consider not playing in any more net events.”  
 

The system is designed, literally, to give lesser players a chance to compete (sort of) equally against better players, and that means lesser players will often win.  Better players don’t like that, and often resort to yelling “Sandbagger,” to anyone who will listen, in the same way that fans blame referees when their favorite team loses.

 

And one more thing that I’ve already mentioned.  A much bigger problem for us in flighted net events were the vanity guys because they screw up the flights and really skew the results.

Yes, our men's group (or as I call it "old guys group") has had a couple people over the years who religiously putt until they reach their ESC (old days) or NDB (now) max. Most of the group take a run at their bogey putt and pick up whether they're getting a stroke on the hole or not.

 

Sure enough, it's those guys following the handicap system rules who get grumbled about as 'baggers. Of course it's not a huge thing but even a couple strokes shows up in a group that plays together several times a week. And it really can be a couple strokes since most of our course handicaps are anywhere from 6 to 18 there's a lot of stroke holes where you can count triple instead of double if you follow the rules of the system.

 

In my opinion the USGA system makes it easy to either sandbag or vanity 'cap but there are 10x as many ridiculous vanity 'cappers (like 4, 5 strokes or more) versus truly degenerate sandbaggers out there. There have been guys in our group who we have to practically twist their arm behind their back to get them to post their BAD rounds. They think of themselves as, say, a 3hcp or whatever. Which they were, three decades ago in their 30's and 40's. But now they are pushing 70 and just refuse to accept that they play to more like an 8 or 10 hcp these days. 

[bluedot]

19 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Yes, our men's group (or as I call it "old guys group") has had a couple people over the years who religiously putt until they reach their ESC (old days) or NDB (now) max. Most of the group take a run at their bogey putt and pick up whether they're getting a stroke on the hole or not.

 

Sure enough, it's those guys following the handicap system rules who get grumbled about as 'baggers. Of course it's not a huge thing but even a couple strokes shows up in a group that plays together several times a week. And it really can be a couple strokes since most of our course handicaps are anywhere from 6 to 18 there's a lot of stroke holes where you can count triple instead of double if you follow the rules of the system.

 

In my opinion the USGA system makes it easy to either sandbag or vanity 'cap but there are 10x as many ridiculous vanity 'cappers (like 4, 5 strokes or more) versus truly degenerate sandbaggers out there. There have been guys in our group who we have to practically twist their arm behind their back to get them to post their BAD rounds. They think of themselves as, say, a 3hcp or whatever. Which they were, three decades ago in their 30's and 40's. But now they are pushing 70 and just refuse to accept that they play to more like an 8 or 10 hcp these days. 

One of my favorites is when someone says to me, “I don’t think our handicaps travel well.”   Sometimes, it’s just a misunderstanding of the math, not realizing that you only play to your index, on average, one round out 5., and that it isn’t likely to be on a less familiar course.

 

But most of the time, it’s a guy who has a vanity index based on rounds in a regular group where he plays preferred lies, picks up putts, etc, and then goes somewhere, has to play “real golf, and shoots a million.  I have to bite my tongue and not say what I’m thinking, which is, “Well, you’ll have to get a real handicap to find out!”

[Augster]

16 minutes ago, bluedot said:

One of my favorites is when someone says to me, “I don’t think our handicaps travel well.”   Sometimes, it’s just a misunderstanding of the math, not realizing that you only play to your index, on average, one round out 5., and that it isn’t likely to be on a less familiar course.

 

But most of the time, it’s a guy who has a vanity index based on rounds in a regular group where he plays preferred lies, picks up putts, etc, and then goes somewhere, has to play “real golf, and shoots a million.  I have to bite my tongue and not say what I’m thinking, which is, “Well, you’ll have to get a real handicap to find out!”

You and NB are 100% my experience.
 

Way more vanity guys crying sandbagger than actual sandbaggers. If you never putt a 3-footer and play every day, you’re cap is going to be too low to play against others when you have to putt them out. 
 

Guys that play every day, and putt out, are going to have a significant advantage in events. Not only do they play more golf, they play real golf, which is what tourney golf is. So their actual cap is very close to what their “C-cap” is. Vanities? Not so much.