WHS Rule Changes for 2024

[bcjim]

6 minutes ago, bluedot said:

You left out the most common type, which is the guy that just doesn’t post good scores that would lower his index.  
 

I don’t see many guys doing 2 or 3, simply because guys that play competitively usually have a few bucks on the line in casual play, and/or are involved in team bets.

Indeed, you're right on the first point. 

 

But I'm willing to gamble any day yet I only have a willing opponent maybe half the time.  And in my solo or rounds with one friend,  they're is rarely gambling among the other 2 or 3.

[bluedot]

47 minutes ago, st1800e said:

I think it’s your score minus your specific Course Handicap.  And course handicap is determined by the slope and course rating.  

Either way.

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

Both, one is just more severe than the other.

 

"You only need a small percentage to ruin it for everybody else. 40 man field with 10% baggers screws everything else up."

 

10% of 40 is 4. So if the 4 guys are "only" bagging a shot or 2 worth, while those 2 shots can be the difference, it's not that likely.

 

Now if a true 12 is bagged up to an 18 that's a different story - but that guy won't be known to anybody except maybe a buddy or 2 there that day. Fortunately (for me), I ony play (nowadays anyway) with guys I already know.

 

Point is, going through life always suspecting the "other guy" of cheating is simply not healthy.

 

And I'll point out once more, that it takes a lot of losing scores to truly sandbag. Everybody I play with bets. One's cap is only 40% of one's rounds and amongst the players I always played/play with, they were also always betting on the current round.

 

So, as I see it, VERY FEW players are bagging the current round for a possible much bigger payoff down the line. The difference in the big event "payoff" was/is almost never enough to sacrifice that day's payoff. YMMV.

 

Solution(?) - Play solely amongst your buddies, play only gross games, and/or only play in flights/tournaments that contain similar caps to yourself - while still understanding, in NET events, how much "easier" it is for higher handicaps to "go "low"" than yourself.

 

Played in many Stablefords overseas with multiple "clubs" and the first thing anybody called out when the winner was announced was "Sandbagging MFer".   Of course, most of the time the chant was in jest but,,,,,, not always,,,,,

 

In roughly those 250 rounds or so, exactly ONE guy (that I knew of) was thrown asked to leave .

 

ONE other guy, from Canada, apparently not fully conversant with handicapping, used his Asian handicap (~13 iirc), instead of his home handicap, without combining those rounds with his home handicap (~7 iirc). This resulted in a significantly higher Asian 'cap; only found out once he made about 48 Stableford points. 

 

He claimed he didn't realize, while overseas, he was still "in season" and all those rounds counted towards his ONE 'cap.

 

Of course, he was actually hurting himself by starting his home season with his lower 'cap rather than the higher 'cap he'd have had had he used his higher overseas scores.

 

So, hopefully, HE kinda broke out even. Doesn't provide much solace for the guys he beat out in the Asian comps, but he did mostly play poorly there.

[Augster]

A small clarification as I tried to explain this today and now I’m confused. 
 

Are there still 9-hole scores and what happens to them?

 

I know if you play 10 holes, GHIN “expected scores” the rest. I thought it did the same thing with 9 holes also. 
 

I’m confused. 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, st1800e said:

I think it’s your score minus your specific Course Handicap.  And course handicap is determined by the slope and course rating.  

And par.  Last part of calculation is course rating minus par.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

A small clarification as I tried to explain this today and now I’m confused. 
 

Are there still 9-hole scores and what happens to them?

 

I know if you play 10 holes, GHIN “expected scores” the rest. I thought it did the same thing with 9 holes also. 
 

I’m confused. 

Yes you are🤣

 

You must play 7 holes to post a 9 hole score and 14 to post an 18 hole score. Holes not played you are to post net par(par plus strokes).

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/10_Things_to_Know_Handicap_Index.pdf

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Yes you are🤣

 

You must play 7 holes to post a 9 hole score and 14 to post an 18 hole score. Holes not played you are to post net par(par plus strokes).

 

Not in 2024 (as is currently thought). There is no more 7-hole or 14-hole minimums. He's talking about the topic here: 2024. Not what currently (7/14 hole minimums) is the case.

[Newby]

55 minutes ago, Augster said:

A small clarification as I tried to explain this today and now I’m confused. 
 

Are there still 9-hole scores and what happens to them?

 

I know if you play 10 holes, GHIN “expected scores” the rest. I thought it did the same thing with 9 holes also. 
 

I’m confused. 

They will be scaled similar to what happens now in CONGU. I think though that the CONGU process is being changed slightly

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Not in 2024 (as is currently thought). There is no more 7-hole or 14-hole minimums. He's talking about the topic here: 2024. Not what currently (7/14 hole minimums) is the case.

Ok…so I f’d up.🤣. Certainly not the first time.

 

What is the new standard for posting? What @Augster said about playing just 10 holes and posting a 18 hole score using net par sounds ridiculous to me. 

[Newby]

From the 2024 USGA Manual 

Here’s a link

https://www.scga.org/pdfs/2024%20Rules%20of%20Handicapping%20(V1).pdf

 

5.1b For a 9-hole Score

A 9-hole Score Differential is calculated as follows:

9-hole Score Differential = (113 ÷ 9-hole Slope Rating) x (9-hole adjusted gross score – 9-hole Course Rating – (0.5 x PCC adjustment))

An 18-hole Score Differential is created by combining the 9-hole Score Differential for the 9 holes played with the player’s expected score over 9 holes.

The 9-hole Score Differential remains unrounded until after it has been combined with the player’s expected score. The 18-hole Score Differential is then rounded to the nearest tenth, with .5 rounded upwards.

If fewer than 9 holes have been played, the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes.

For a 9-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes over a course which consists of fewer than 9 holes, a Course Rating and Slope Rating must be issued over 9 designated holes. The calculation of a 9-hole Score Differential is carried out using the normal procedures as set out within the Rules of Handicapping.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Newby

[rogolf]

12 minutes ago, Newby said:

From the 2024 USGA Manual 

Here’s a link

https://www.scga.org/pdfs/2024%20Rules%20of%20Handicapping%20(V1).pdf

 

5.1b For a 9-hole Score

A 9-hole Score Differential is calculated as follows:

9-hole Score Differential = (113 ÷ 9-hole Slope Rating) x (9-hole adjusted gross score – 9-hole Course Rating – (0.5 x PCC adjustment))

An 18-hole Score Differential is created by combining the 9-hole Score Differential for the 9 holes played with the player’s expected score over 9 holes.

The 9-hole Score Differential remains unrounded until after it has been combined with the player’s expected score. The 18-hole Score Differential is then rounded to the nearest tenth, with .5 rounded upwards.

If fewer than 9 holes have been played, the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes.

For a 9-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes over a course which consists of fewer than 9 holes, a Course Rating and Slope Rating must be issued over 9 designated holes. The calculation of a 9-hole Score Differential is carried out using the normal procedures as set out within the Rules of Handicapping.

Wouldn't that correctly be 0.05 is rounded up, since the rounding is to a tenth?

[Newby]

From Fore the Magazine of the SCGA

Treatment of Nine-Hole Scores

When a player posts a nine-hole score, the WHS will automatically calculate an 18-hole Score Differential™ for the round, based on the player’s nine-hole Score Differential and their current Handicap Index®, allowing the nine-hole round to be considered in the player’s Handicap Index calculation right away.

The Score Differential will be a combination of the nine holes played along with an expected score based on the player’s Handicap Index. It is important to note that the expected score is based on the average Score Differential of a player with a given Handicap Index and a normal distribution of scores — so it is not specific to each player. The expected score is not course specific and not related to the nine-holes played. As an example, it is not the “back nine” of a course if the nine-hole score played was the front nine.
Note 1: If fewer than nine holes are played, the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes.
Note 2: Play of a rated nine is required for a score to be acceptable for handicap purposes.

The above is significantly different than what has happened historically when a player has posted a nine-hole score. An 18-hole Score Differential has been created by combining two nine-hole Score Differentials. This resulted in a nine-hole score waiting to be combined, sometimes for a significant time until another nine-hole score has been posted. The new procedure will be far more responsive and equitable.

10-17 Hole Scores

Rounds of 10 to 17 holes receive an 18-hole Score Differential with an expected score value for holes not played. When 10-17 holes have been played, a value is calculated from the holes played (must include a rated nine). Then, the expected score procedure is used for any holes not played. Lastly, these values are added to determine the 18-hole Score Differential.
Note: The player will be required to post their score hole by hole when 10-17 holes are played, so the appropriate Score Differential can be calculated from the holes that were played to combine with the expected score for the holes not played. Scoreposting tools will provide this capability.

The new procedure differs from what is in place today. Currently, when 10 to 13 holes are played, scores made on holes 10 through 13 are disregarded and a nine-hole score is posted. When 14-17 holes are played, net par is used for the remaining holes to allow an 18-hole score to be posted. The new procedure generally eliminates the use of net par for holes not played.

[Newby]

36 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Wouldn't that correctly be 0.05 is rounded up, since the rounding is to a tenth?

0.5 is = 9/18

18 hole PCCs are an integer

Edited November 5, 2023 by Newby

[Augster]

Thanks for the clarification. 
 

So there are no more “9-hole danglers”. 9- holes is prorated to 18 based on how you played the previous 9. 
 

And 10+ holes is the 9 you played, plus any holes 10-18, prorated for the holes you don’t play. 
 

Thanks for the help!

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

The 9-hole Score Differential remains unrounded until after it has been combined with the player’s expected score.

 

Can the player's expected score be a decimal? Because if you're adding an integer to it, it doesn't matter when you round it.

[nsxguy]

[never mind - already answered]

Edited November 5, 2023 by nsxguy

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

0.5 is = 9/18

18 hole PCCs are an integer

The 9-hole Score Differential remains unrounded until after it has been combined with the player’s expected score. The 18-hole Score Differential is then rounded to the nearest tenth, with .5 rounded upwards.

 

We're not talking about PCC, but differentials.  A differntial has one decimal place.  Imo, rounding ,5 upwards becomes an integer, rounding 0.05 upwards becomes a tenth.

[nsxguy]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:51 AM, North Butte said:

For my part, I'll simply not post any scores for rounds with a hole skipped or omitted.

 

So you're handicap, assuming you have such rounds, is not legitimate.

 

Good to know. 👍

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

From Fore the Magazine of the SCGA

Treatment of Nine-Hole Scores

When a player posts a nine-hole score, the WHS will automatically calculate an 18-hole Score Differential™ for the round, based on the player’s nine-hole Score Differential and their current Handicap Index®, allowing the nine-hole round to be considered in the player’s Handicap Index calculation right away.

The Score Differential will be a combination of the nine holes played along with an expected score based on the player’s Handicap Index. It is important to note that the expected score is based on the average Score Differential of a player with a given Handicap Index and a normal distribution of scores — so it is not specific to each player. The expected score is not course specific and not related to the nine-holes played. As an example, it is not the “back nine” of a course if the nine-hole score played was the front nine.
Note 1: If fewer than nine holes are played, the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes.
Note 2: Play of a rated nine is required for a score to be acceptable for handicap purposes.

The above is significantly different than what has happened historically when a player has posted a nine-hole score. An 18-hole Score Differential has been created by combining two nine-hole Score Differentials. This resulted in a nine-hole score waiting to be combined, sometimes for a significant time until another nine-hole score has been posted. The new procedure will be far more responsive and equitable.

10-17 Hole Scores

Rounds of 10 to 17 holes receive an 18-hole Score Differential with an expected score value for holes not played. When 10-17 holes have been played, a value is calculated from the holes played (must include a rated nine). Then, the expected score procedure is used for any holes not played. Lastly, these values are added to determine the 18-hole Score Differential.
Note: The player will be required to post their score hole by hole when 10-17 holes are played, so the appropriate Score Differential can be calculated from the holes that were played to combine with the expected score for the holes not played. Scoreposting tools will provide this capability.

The new procedure differs from what is in place today. Currently, when 10 to 13 holes are played, scores made on holes 10 through 13 are disregarded and a nine-hole score is posted. When 14-17 holes are played, net par is used for the remaining holes to allow an 18-hole score to be posted. The new procedure generally eliminates the use of net par for holes not played.

Is the expected score calculated the same as “holes not played” currently? As in par plus strokes?  Or a calculated score based on what a player of that handicap would likely average? Which would be higher than par+.

 

I can see one way it could be abused by unscrupulous golfers. In theory…let’s say a player has a club tournament this weekend….and he only has time to play one round before the event but in two rounds he’ll get rid of an exceptionally low score.   
Great…play 18…post as two 9 hole scores…and they’ll each be considered an 18 hole round.

Mission accomplished!

[Bonneville85308]

This all reminds me why my preferred method of play is to just go out, hit the ball, and try to get it in the hole in the fewest amount of actual strokes without worrying about handicaps, sandbaggers, vanity cappers, PCC, USGA handicap rules/changes, etc.

[Augster]

7 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Is the expected score calculated the same as “holes not played” currently? As in par plus strokes?  Or a calculated score based on what a player of that handicap would likely average? Which would be higher than par+.

 

I can see one way it could be abused by unscrupulous golfers. In theory…let’s say a player has a club tournament this weekend….and he only has time to play one round before the event but in two rounds he’ll get rid of an exceptionally low score.   
Great…play 18…post as two 9 hole scores…and they’ll each be considered an 18 hole round.

Mission accomplished!

No. It’s an algorithm based on your current index, how you played the holes you actually played, and your expected scores on the holes coming up. 
 

BTW, cheaters were going to cheat anyway. No real way to stop it without a drastic change to the system. A small percentage will always be cheats. 
 

What this change will mainly do is prorate partial rounds to more fairly give you a score if you had continued to play that day. It’ll avoid situations like my friend last summer. Joined us for a quick 9 before he had an appointment. Shot -5, 30, as a 4 cap. He vowed he’d never play another 9 the rest of the summer, and didn’t. 
 

Another example, as a 4 at the time, I shot +5, 40 on the front. No way it’ll be a keeper score. Then I played 10-13 even, through my stroke holes. So par+ I had to post even for the back. Posted 75 as a keeper. Complete BS. If I played out the round I’d have given myself MAYBE a 10% chance of breaking 40 on the back given how terrible I was playing. I was only even on my 2 stroke holes as I played like a clown and got bailed out with two 25+ foot bombs. The new system will recognize the terribleness of the front 9, plus the extra holes played, and prorate how I’d finish. It’d likely post like 77, 78 or 79 for that round and it wouldn’t be a keeper. 

[Augster]

7 hours ago, Bonneville85308 said:

This all reminds me why my preferred method of play is to just go out, hit the ball, and try to get it in the hole in the fewest amount of actual strokes without worrying about handicaps, sandbaggers, vanity cappers, PCC, USGA handicap rules/changes, etc.

You do you. 
 

If that were the only way to “enjoy” golf, I’d probably play 2, maybe 3, times per year. Instead of the 150+ rounds I do play, competitively, with handicaps, nearly every time out. 

[Newby]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

The 9-hole Score Differential remains unrounded until after it has been combined with the player’s expected score. The 18-hole Score Differential is then rounded to the nearest tenth, with .5 rounded upwards.

 

We're not talking about PCC, but differentials.  A differntial has one decimal place.  Imo, rounding ,5 upwards becomes an integer, rounding 0.05 upwards becomes a tenth.

I thought (0.5 x PCC adjustment)) was the issue

Edited November 6, 2023 by Newby

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

No. It’s an algorithm based on your current index, how you played the holes you actually played, and your expected scores on the holes coming up. 
 

BTW, cheaters were going to cheat anyway. No real way to stop it without a drastic change to the system. A small percentage will always be cheats. 
 

What this change will mainly do is prorate partial rounds to more fairly give you a score if you had continued to play that day. It’ll avoid situations like my friend last summer. Joined us for a quick 9 before he had an appointment. Shot -5, 30, as a 4 cap. He vowed he’d never play another 9 the rest of the summer, and didn’t. 
 

Another example, as a 4 at the time, I shot +5, 40 on the front. No way it’ll be a keeper score. Then I played 10-13 even, through my stroke holes. So par+ I had to post even for the back. Posted 75 as a keeper. Complete BS. If I played out the round I’d have given myself MAYBE a 10% chance of breaking 40 on the back given how terrible I was playing. I was only even on my 2 stroke holes as I played like a clown and got bailed out with two 25+ foot bombs. The new system will recognize the terribleness of the front 9, plus the extra holes played, and prorate how I’d finish. It’d likely post like 77, 78 or 79 for that round and it wouldn’t be a keeper. 

And it might prorate the last five holes as a couple under since you seem to have righted the ship in that round.  As a 4 I would find it more likely than another 40…but that’s just me.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Augster said:

BTW, cheaters were going to cheat anyway. No real way to stop it without a drastic change to the system. A small percentage will always be cheats.

 

Right. There's no system that will stop cheating, and time spent on it is almost pointless.

 

It's similar to software licensing. I always sought to make it slightly difficult for people to pirate my software, without doing too much to annoy the actual paying customers (no "phone home" checks because those don't work without an Internet connection, no per-computer licensing because it's a pain when you get a new computer, etc.). We always did just fine.

[North Butte]

16 hours ago, Bonneville85308 said:

This all reminds me why my preferred method of play is to just go out, hit the ball, and try to get it in the hole in the fewest amount of actual strokes without worrying about handicaps, sandbaggers, vanity cappers, PCC, USGA handicap rules/changes, etc.

It's fun being a solo artist once in a while. But good luck actually playing golf, against an opponent I mean, when you shoot in the 80's and he can't break 100. Or you shoot in the 80's and he's around par most days. Your game will be over with half the round still to play most times. That's why handicaps were invented. 

[Nels55]

35 minutes ago, North Butte said:

It's fun being a solo artist once in a while. But good luck actually playing golf, against an opponent I mean, when you shoot in the 80's and he can't break 100. Or you shoot in the 80's and he's around par most days. Your game will be over with half the round still to play most times. That's why handicaps were invented. 

Yep.  The best handicap system of all time was probably when Old Tom Morris would determine strokes for the matches going off each morning.  Pretty tough to game that system...

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Yep.  The best handicap system of all time was probably when Old Tom Morris would determine strokes for the matches going off each morning.  Pretty tough to game that system...

Oh, I don't know about that. Slipping a pound note into Old Tommy's back pocket was probably worth a few strokes...

[North Butte]

When I'd been playing golf a couple years, barely breaking 100 most days, there was one guy in the group I played with on Saturdays who I thought of as a good player because he was the most consistent "breaks 90" guy in the group. I think he was equivalent to maybe a 13-14hcp and I'd have been 20+ for sure if I had a 'cap. 

 

One time he had a bad day and shot 92 or something and I had a good day and shot 95, I warned him that one day soon I was going to beat him.

 

He laughed and said if I ever shot a better round than him he'd give me a dollar. Took me the better part of a year but one day I finally shot one stroke better than him and I demanded my dollar. Sweetest money I've ever taken off a person, I'll tell you that.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Oh, I don't know about that. Slipping a pound note into Old Tommy's back pocket was probably worth a few strokes...

Well, based on what I have read about Old Tom I don't think that he would take a bribe.  Don't know LOL.