Workaround on two rule changes

[golfortennis]

Was watching the LET this morning, and saw a player with a putt, and her caddie tending the flag, and the announcer stating she was aiming at his left foot.

 

So, a few years ago, the rule was changed to allow putting with the pin in.  At the same time, caddies were now prevented to line up their player for a shot.  Seeing the above, it appears to me the rules makers missed an opportunity.  If caddies are not allowed to line up putts, they shouldn't be allowed to tend pins and put down an aiming point.  My thought would be you can have the pin in, out, but not tended and having an aiming point. 

 

Given that the rules do tend to have some less obvious reasons for existing or not existing, am I missing something here?   

[st1800e]

Nope. The caddie has to stand somewhere when tending the flag.  Player can aim at the heel or the toe or the other foot, or the space in between.  Impossible to police, unless the player says I was aiming at his foot, and the caddie put his foot where the player asked him to stand.  
  It’s the announcer who claimed this , not the player.  And announcers say anything they want to.  No way the announcer knows where or how the player is aiming.  

[nsxguy]

10 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Nope. The caddie has to stand somewhere when tending the flag.  Player can aim at the heel or the toe or the other foot, or the space in between.  Impossible to police, unless the player says I was aiming at his foot, and the caddie put his foot where the player asked him to stand.  
  It’s the announcer who claimed this , not the player.  And announcers say anything they want to.  No way the announcer knows where or how the player is aiming.  

 

GOY is suggesting that the caddie should not be allowed to tend the pin, not that it's illegal.

 

My thought would be that the 2019 Rules changes were to make the game a bit easier and less penal, as in allowing the pin to be left in, moving the ball accidentally on the green, etc.

 

Making tending the pin against the Rules would tend to make the game a bit harder. I'd leave it be.

[st1800e]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

GOY is suggesting that the caddie should not be allowed to tend the pin

Yes, I did get that.  And yes, not illegal, and “no doubt” that won’t change.  

[golfortennis]

Just now, st1800e said:

Yes, I did get that.  And yes, not illegal, and “no doubt” that won’t change.  

 

So, in the spirit of "you should be able to move the ball out of a divot/well how do you define a divot" , what is the second half to caddie can remove the pin or leave it, but not tend it? 

[st1800e]

8 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

So, in the spirit of "you should be able to move the ball out of a divot/well how do you define a divot" , what is the second half to caddie can remove the pin or leave it, but not tend it? 

Wrong “spirit”.  This is not a divot question.  

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

Given that the rules do tend to have some less obvious reasons for existing or not existing, am I missing something here? 

 

Tennis might be a good fit for you . . . or, perhaps pinkleball. 🙄

[Socrates]

2 hours ago, golfortennis said:

Was watching the LET this morning, and saw a player with a putt, and her caddie tending the flag, and the announcer stating she was aiming at his left foot.

 

So, a few years ago, the rule was changed to allow putting with the pin in.  At the same time, caddies were now prevented to line up their player for a shot.  Seeing the above, it appears to me the rules makers missed an opportunity.  If caddies are not allowed to line up putts, they shouldn't be allowed to tend pins and put down an aiming point.  My thought would be you can have the pin in, out, but not tended and having an aiming point. 

 

Given that the rules   do tend to have some less obvious reasons for existing or not existing, am I missing something here?   

Further to what @st1800e said,   

 

Rule 10-2 

b. Other Help

 

(1) Getting Help from Caddie with Line of Play or Other Directional Information. When a player’s caddie is helping the player with the line of play or other directional information, the caddie is subject to the following limitations: 

The caddie must not set an object down to provide such help (and the player cannot avoid penalty by removing the object before the stroke is made).

While the stroke is being made, the caddie must not:

Stand in a position for the player to play towards, or

Do anything else to provide such help (such as pointing out a spot on the ground).

The caddie must not stand in the restricted area when not allowed under Rule 10.2b(4).

But this Rule does not prohibit the caddie from standing close to the hole to attend the flagstick.

[Socrates]

I think there would be a problem if the caddie was standing a few inches from the cup edge (not only creating an aiming point, but the other players would have a problem with them standing that close to the hole).  Also, if they said they were tending the flag, but not being able to touch the flag (if the putt had a huge break to it and obviously creating an aiming point), there would be a problem.

 

I think you will see every caddie standing as far as possible from the hole and still hold onto the flag.

[Augster]

This seems like a fix looking for a problem. 
 

I take the pin out every time, because I like to make putts, but sometimes I need it attended. And others always want it in. 
 

I think the ruling bodies should revisit this. They should go against tradition and require the flag to always be left in. No need to have anyone attend it. Ever. It’ll certainly speed up play if everyone has to leave it in. 
 

AND, as with the OP, it’ll remove any “lining up help” ambiguity. There won’t be attended flags, so no possible extra help. 
 

And it’s really simple to enforce. They could remove the entire Rule about what happens when your ball strikes a laid down flagstick.

 

I like it. 

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

 I think the ruling bodies should revisit this. They should go against tradition and require the flag to always be left in. No need to have anyone attend it. Ever. It’ll certainly speed up play if everyone has to leave it in. 

 

A possible issue might be that it it would take longer to remove the ball after the putt and if the ball had to left in until all putt out, it would get rather congested and could prevent a ball being holed.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

I take the pin out every time, because I like to make putts

 

Those two statements are slightly contradictory, but… it's OT for this topic.

[Augster]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

A possible issue might be that it it would take longer to remove the ball after the putt and if the ball had to left in until all putt out, it would get rather congested and could prevent a ball being holed.

Lol. 
 

Obviously you could remove the flagstick to retrieve a holed ball. 🙂

[rogolf]

One suggestion prior to the finalization of the 2019 Rules was to have the cup and flagstick as one unit, ie, inseparable.

Thankfully, it was not acceptable to the Rule makers!

Edited November 19, 2023 by rogolf

[Socrates]

10 hours ago, Augster said:

 

I think the ruling bodies should revisit this. They should go against tradition and require the flag to always be left in. No need to have anyone attend it. Ever. It’ll certainly speed up play if everyone has to leave it in. 
 

Having a Rule like that would be problematic.  There are many times and many reasons why flags need to be attended or pulled.  Most often the flag doesn't stand properly in the cup and is canted to one side or the other.  Having a Rule to force you to putt with the flag in would be a problem.  That being said, I usually putt with the flag in, but there are enough scenarios where I pull the flag to putt.

[ThinkingPlus]

34 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Having a Rule like that would be problematic.  There are many times and many reasons why flags need to be attended or pulled.  Most often the flag doesn't stand properly in the cup and is canted to one side or the other.  Having a Rule to force you to putt with the flag in would be a problem.  That being said, I usually putt with the flag in, but there are enough scenarios where I pull the flag to putt.

I agree. I want the flag out all the time except for long putts where I can't easily see the hole or very rarely if I can't control speed on a putt. It would get really old, really quickly trying to make putts with poorly cut/set holes. Also, wind blowing the flagstick around would be putting to a moving target.

 

I hate the rule change. It was straightforward before. Now the pin is in, the pin is out. Gotta keep track of everyone's preference. Further, it doesn’t save time really because of all the back and forth.

[kiwigolf72]

totally agree.

[Augster]

One could always straighten the flagstick before putting. Just like now. 
 

In so far as crooked cups, it’s equitable because everyone has the same disadvantage. Unlike now. Where the folks that leave it in on a crooked cup don’t realize the disadvantage they are at. 
 

Or flat cups also. It’s always a disadvantage to leave it in. It’s an advantage to take it out. 
 

Forcing everyone to leave it in would make it equitable. 

[ThinkingPlus]

21 minutes ago, Augster said:

One could always straighten the flagstick before putting. Just like now. 
 

In so far as crooked cups, it’s equitable because everyone has the same disadvantage. Unlike now. Where the folks that leave it in on a crooked cup don’t realize the disadvantage they are at. 
 

Or flat cups also. It’s always a disadvantage to leave it in. It’s an advantage to take it out. 
 

Forcing everyone to leave it in would make it equitable. 

So you want the smart people to give up their advantage over stupid people. Hmmm, that's one of the all time stupidest posts I have ever seen on GolfWRX. Congratulations on exceeding my already low expectations.

[golfortennis]

4 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I agree. I want the flag out all the time except for long putts where I can't easily see the hole or very rarely if I can't control speed on a putt. It would get really old, really quickly trying to make putts with poorly cut/set holes. Also, wind blowing the flagstick around would be putting to a moving target.

 

I hate the rule change. It was straightforward before. Now the pin is in, the pin is out. Gotta keep track of everyone's preference. Further, it doesn’t save time really because of all the back and forth.

 

I agree that the rule change did not save time.  I also believe that putting with the stick is an advantage(although others disagree).  On that basis I was against the rule change.  Most everyone I play with leaves it in, and except on a long putt, I leave it in or leave it out based on whatever anyone is doing.

 

I don't agree about the wind making it a moving target, but that is personal preference I suppose.  One guy I play with cannot stand the shadow of the flag moving about in his field of vision over a putt.  I barely notice it.  

 

I just don't see the point of tending the stick now with the rule change.  You want it in, leave it in.  You want it out, take it out.  The ball is not more likely to go in with the stick out.  All it does is allow an opportunity for a caddie to line up a player.  

[ThinkingPlus]

50 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

I agree that the rule change did not save time.  I also believe that putting with the stick is an advantage(although others disagree).  On that basis I was against the rule change.  Most everyone I play with leaves it in, and except on a long putt, I leave it in or leave it out based on whatever anyone is doing.

 

I don't agree about the wind making it a moving target, but that is personal preference I suppose.  One guy I play with cannot stand the shadow of the flag moving about in his field of vision over a putt.  I barely notice it.  

 

I just don't see the point of tending the stick now with the rule change.  You want it in, leave it in.  You want it out, take it out.  The ball is not more likely to go in with the stick out.  All it does is allow an opportunity for a caddie to line up a player.  

You don't think tending the flag is necessary because you believe leaving the flag in is an advantage.  I think it has been shown pretty conclusively that it is not an advantage unless you are a very poor putter.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

You don't think tending the flag is necessary because you believe leaving the flag in is an advantage.  I think it has been shown pretty conclusively that it is not an advantage unless you are a very poor putter.

 

News to me.

 

My advice, backed on having rolled a few thousand putts at a hole with and without a flagstick…

• If you're certain you're going to control your distance to within about 3 feet, take it out. It's going to hurt you more than it can help you.
• In other situations, leave it in: it's going to help you more than it's going to hurt you.

[golfortennis]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

You don't think tending the flag is necessary because you believe leaving the flag in is an advantage.  I think it has been shown pretty conclusively that it is not an advantage unless you are a very poor putter.

 

I think has been shown pretty conclusively that it is an advantage, but it's also like the long putter debate:  a good putter is a good putter, and the room for improvement is very small .  

 

But again, if you want the flag out, why putt with it in, only to then have it removed?    

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

One could always straighten the flagstick before putting. Just like now. 
 

In so far as crooked cups, it’s equitable because everyone has the same disadvantage. Unlike now. Where the folks that leave it in on a crooked cup don’t realize the disadvantage they are at. 
 

Or flat cups also. It’s always a disadvantage to leave it in. It’s an advantage to take it out. 
 

Forcing everyone to leave it in would make it equitable. 

There are plenty of cups in this part of the world where no amount of straightening is going to help.

If the cup is crooked, having a Rule to mandate that the flag is left in would be a disadvantage for almost everyone.

 

You can't convince me it is an advantage to take the flag out.  It's fairly split on the internet about which is better, but in a lot of cases, it is an advantage, in my mind, to leave it in.

[ThinkingPlus]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

News to me.

 

My advice, backed on having rolled a few thousand putts at a hole with and without a flagstick…

• If you're certain you're going to control your distance to within about 3 feet, take it out. It's going to hurt you more than it can help you.
• In other situations, leave it in: it's going to help you more than it's going to hurt you.

That's mostly correct. Holes set at poor angles, leaning flagsticks, or wind blowing the stick around are other situations to pull the pin.

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

I think has been shown pretty conclusively that it is an advantage, but it's also like the long putter debate:  a good putter is a good putter, and the room for improvement is very small .  

 

But again, if you want the flag out, why putt with it in, only to then have it removed?    

What are talking about? I almost never want the flag in. If I can't see the hole I'll leave it in (usually greater than 50 or 60 feet). If I thought I was good enough to make the crazy long putt and it was a tournament,  the I might have it tended. Frankly, I'm not that good a putter.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

I think has been shown pretty conclusively that it is an advantage, but it's also like the long putter debate:  a good putter is a good putter, and the room for improvement is very small.

 

Yeah. There was one really poorly done article that said something like "take it out for 99.9% of putts" but it was doing the math based on how often putts even roll over the middle of the hole… so, a really bad headline, and many people only read the headline.

 

4 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That's mostly correct. Holes set at poor angles, leaning flagsticks, or wind blowing the stick around are other situations to pull the pin.

 

Leaning flagsticks (as long as a ball can still go in) actually help a little more.

 

Wind, I agree: it increases the chances of it knocking the ball out. It takes a healthy wind (or a loose cup/flagstick) to actually move the bottom bit of a flagstick, though.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's been shown that "it is not an advantage." Feel free to point me at something that shows this "pretty conclusively."

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

Yeah. There was one really poorly done article that said something like "take it out for 99.9% of putts" but it was doing the math based on how often putts even roll over the middle of the hole… so, a really bad headline, and many people only read the headline.

 

 

Leaning flagsticks (as long as a ball can still go in) actually help a little more.

 

Wind, I agree: it increases the chances of it knocking the ball out. It takes a healthy wind (or a loose cup/flagstick) to actually move the bottom bit of a flagstick, though.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's been shown that "it is not an advantage." Feel free to point me at something that shows this "pretty conclusively."

I read through most of the studies. The Eduardo Molinari study was the most comprehensive I saw.

 

The only leaning flagstick that helps is one leaning away from you. If it's leaning towards you, you miss most putts. Leaning left or right is problematic depending on break and rarely help vs. no pin at all.

 

If I remember correctly, if you have the following conditions, it is 50/50 pin in vs. pin out:

1) Small diameter, flexible flagstick

2) Flagstick sits vertically within the cup (no leaning)

3) No wind blowing the flagstick around

[Socrates]

8 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

What are talking about? I almost never want the flag in. If I can't see the hole I'll leave it in (usually greater than 50 or 60 feet). If I thought I was good enough to make the crazy long putt and it was a tournament,  the I might have it tended. Frankly, I'm not that good a putter.

A lot of it comes down to what you believe.  If you believe that taking out will help you, there will be no amount of stats that will convince you differently.  The converse is also true.  I personally believe that leaving it in for most situations is an advantage. 

You can go back decades ago when Pelz did a scientific study (somewhere in the 1990's) and he found it was an advantage.  He didn't have any bias in the result, unlike much of what you see on YouTube now.

[Schulzmc]

3 minutes ago, Socrates said:

A lot of it comes down to what you believe.  If you believe that taking out will help you, there will be no amount of stats that will convince you differently.  The converse is also true.  I personally believe that leaving it in for most situations is an advantage. 

You can go back decades ago when Pelz did a scientific study (somewhere in the 1990's) and he found it was an advantage.  He didn't have any bias in the result, unlike much of what you see on YouTube now.

The Pelz study had been proven to be flawed. There is actually a pretty good thread on here that goes through a lot of the pros and cons: