Workaround on two rule changes

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, Socrates said:

A lot of it comes down to what you believe.  If you believe that taking out will help you, there will be no amount of stats that will convince you differently.  The converse is also true.  I personally believe that leaving it in for most situations is an advantage. 

You can go back decades ago when Pelz did a scientific study (somewhere in the 1990's) and he found it was an advantage.  He didn't have any bias in the result, unlike much of what you see on YouTube now.

Pelz study was for chipping and wasn't very appropriate for putting.

 

I only look at the results of scientific testing using the most pertinent test methodology. There were several studies done by a bunch of different folks. Most had sloppy methodology (bad speeds, distances past the hole, green speeds, flagstick leaning, etc...) so their conclusions weren't very good. I think most of the pros were convinced by the Molinari study. That's why 99% of the tour players take the flagstick out. I have heard that the ones who do leave the pin in do so because they claim they see the hole better. That is an effect outside of the studies and is subjective for each player as is "belief".

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I think most of the pros were convinced by the Molinari study. That's why 99% of the tour players take the flagstick out. I have heard that the ones who do leave the pin in do so because they claim they see the hole better. That is an effect outside of the studies and is subjective for each player as is "belief".

 

PGA Tour flagsticks are pretty "bouncy." They're pretty firm, and a bit thicker than the flagsticks you often find at golf courses. Bryson's comment about the CoR of the flagsticks (or whatever it was he said) wasn't as laughable as many made it out to be.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

PGA Tour flagsticks are pretty "bouncy." They're pretty firm, and a bit thicker than the flagsticks you often find at golf courses. Bryson's comment about the CoR of the flagsticks (or whatever it was he said) wasn't as laughable as many made it out to be.

Agreed. Most of the courses around here use the thick, stiff pins. It's windy here. The small, flexible sticks blow out of the holes.

[Shilgy]

56 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

News to me.

 

My advice, backed on having rolled a few thousand putts at a hole with and without a flagstick…

• If you're certain you're going to control your distance to within about 3 feet, take it out. It's going to hurt you more than it can help you.
• In other situations, leave it in: it's going to help you more than it's going to hurt you.

So you agree with her?🤣. She did say if you’re a poor putter leave it in….you just defined poor putter by saying if your speed miss is over/under 3 feet.  

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

So you agree with her?🤣. She did say if you’re a poor putter leave it in….you just defined poor putter by saying if your speed miss is over/under 3 feet.  

 

You're not a bad putter if you hit your 65-foot putt to 4 feet. That's outside of 3 feet, though.

[Shilgy]

Just now, iacas said:

 

You're not a bad putter if you hit your 65-foot putt to 4 feet. That's outside of 3 feet, though.

Might be why she said leave it in at the long ranges.   Which is what I do.  If you can control your speed take it out.

 

From 65 feet a two putt is very good.  
 

BTW @Augster you had mentioned that if everyone must leave the pin in it would be fair.  Not if a flagstick is leaning towards one player and away from another it wouldn’t be.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Might be why she said leave it in at the long ranges.   Which is what I do.  If you can control your speed take it out.

 

From 65 feet a two putt is very good.  

 

I know. I wasn't disagreeing; I was asking what studies she had seen that "conclusively showed" that you should always take it out. I don't recommend "always taking it out," which is why I laid out the basic guidelines.

[Shilgy]

Just now, iacas said:

 

I know. I wasn't disagreeing; I was asking what studies she had seen that "conclusively showed" that you should always take it out. I don't recommend "always taking it out," which is why I laid out the basic guidelines.

Gotcha…she did refer to the Eduardo Molinari study which is the best/most relevant I’ve seen.

 

Luckily everyone can pick a study that agrees with their belief.

 

Personally I believe in pulling the flagstick.  If playing in a group that just plays for fun(no bets involved which I admit I rarely do) I will leave the stick in.  But as soon as a putt bounces off the stick when I’m positive it would have been holed without the stick I back to having it pulled.

[Socrates]

47 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Pelz study was for chipping and wasn't very appropriate for putting.

 

I only look at the results of scientific testing using the most pertinent test methodology. There were several studies done by a bunch of different folks. Most had sloppy methodology (bad speeds, distances past the hole, green speeds, flagstick leaning, etc...) so their conclusions weren't very good. I think most of the pros were convinced by the Molinari study. That's why 99% of the tour players take the flagstick out. I have heard that the ones who do leave the pin in do so because they claim they see the hole better. That is an effect outside of the studies and is subjective for each player as is "belief".

Quite likely very relevant for Tour Pros or very good putters.  For those of us that aren't gifted putters, there is no real reason to be pulling the pin.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

In so far as crooked cups, it’s equitable because everyone has the same disadvantage. Unlike now. Where the folks that leave it in on a crooked cup don’t realize the disadvantage they are at.

 

OK, an exaggeration of a flagstick put into a hole sunk crookedly, but we're tied on 18 and both have 6-footers.

 

Your putt is from the left side of the pic, mine's from the right.

 

What say you ? Rub of the green ?

 

[Shilgy]

17 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

OK, an exaggeration of a flagstick put into a hole sunk crookedly, but we're tied on 18 and both have 6-footers.

 

Your putt is from the left side of the pic, mine's from the right.

 

What say you ? Rub of the green ?

 

Thank you for illustrating my post a couple above yours!🤣

[nsxguy]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Thank you for illustrating my post a couple above yours!🤣

 

Like some/many/most I don't always read through the entire thread before quoting and responding.

 

But you're welcome.

[nsxguy]

BTW, I suppose some dope has to ask so I'll be the one.

 

Tried looking at the Rules but I couldn't find it.

 

I know a caddie standing behind his player lining him up or otherwise confirming he's aimed properly is against the rules, but is a caddie tending the flag.i.e. NOT behind the player, and the player then picking his line and using the caddie's right foot/left foot/somewhere in between as an aim point actually against the rules ?

 

Can someone point me to it ? TIA

[st1800e]

So this thread has gone from the allegation that players are cheating because their caddie attends the flag,

to the flag in or out debate which is further beating of a horse already beaten to death.  

[st1800e]

Just now, nsxguy said:

BTW, I suppose some dope has to ask so I'll be the one.

 

Tried looking at the Rules but I couldn't find it.

 

I know a caddie standing behind his player lining him up or otherwise confirming he's aimed properly is against the rules, but is a caddie tending the flag.i.e. NOT behind the player, and the player then picking his line and using the caddie's right foot/left foot/somewhere in between as an aim point actually against the rules ?

 

Can someone point me to it ? TIA

There isn’t one.  

[Shilgy]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

BTW, I suppose some dope has to ask so I'll be the one.

 

Tried looking at the Rules but I couldn't find it.

 

I know a caddie standing behind his player lining him up or otherwise confirming he's aimed properly is against the rules, but is a caddie tending the flag.i.e. NOT behind the player, and the player then picking his line and using the caddie's right foot/left foot/somewhere in between as an aim point actually against the rules ?

 

Can someone point me to it ? TIA

 

3 minutes ago, st1800e said:

There isn’t one.  

There kind of is one.  @Socratesposted it on pg1

 

a part of Rule 0.2

 

While the stroke is being made, the caddie must not:
    »    Stand in a position for the player to play towards, or
    »    Do anything else to provide such help (such as pointing out a spot on the ground).
    •    The caddie must not stand in the restricted area when not allowed under Rule 10.2b(4).
But this Rule does not prohibit the caddie from standing close to the hole to attend the flagstick.

 

I will add though…I’m assuming you both know an attended flagstick must be removed before the ball gets there.  So a caddie cannot just stand next to the hole to give a player a reference point with his feet and not pull the flagstick.

[st1800e]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

 

There kind of is one.  @Socratesposted it on pg1

 

a part of Rule 0.2

 

While the stroke is being made, the caddie must not:
    »    Stand in a position for the player to play towards, or
    »    Do anything else to provide such help (such as pointing out a spot on the ground).
    •    The caddie must not stand in the restricted area when not allowed under Rule 10.2b(4).
But this Rule does not prohibit the caddie from standing close to the hole to attend the flagstick.

 

I will add though…I’m assuming you both know an attended flagstick must be removed before the ball gets there.  So a caddie cannot just stand next to the hole to give a player a reference point with his feet and not pull the flagstick.

Yes, we’re both right.  I’ll refer to my earlier post, #2 in the thread.  There’s no rule against a caddie attending a flagstick and a player deciding to hit it at one of his feet . 

And yes you assume correctly.  

[nsxguy]

52 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

 

There kind of is one.  @Socratesposted it on pg1

 

a part of Rule 0.2

 

While the stroke is being made, the caddie must not:
    »    Stand in a position for the player to play towards, or
    »    Do anything else to provide such help (such as pointing out a spot on the ground).
    •    The caddie must not stand in the restricted area when not allowed under Rule 10.2b(4).

But this Rule does not prohibit the caddie from standing close to the hole to attend the flagstick.

 

I will add though…I’m assuming you both know an attended flagstick must be removed before the ball gets there.  So a caddie cannot just stand next to the hole to give a player a reference point with his feet and not pull the flagstick.

 

Yup. I see it now. Socrates bolded it too............ Thx

[Augster]

Between March2020 to May 2020, when we were Covid-forced to leave the sticks in, I had 13 putts I know were in glance the stick and stay out. These ranged from 1-foot (which cost me $13) to 25 feet. In those two months, I also saw DOZENS of other likely made putts glance the flagstick and stay out.

 

Since we have been allowed to pull sticks, May 2020 to November 2023, I have had ZERO of my putts glance flagsticks and stay out. Because it’s always out. Yet, for people that I have played with that leave it in, I’ve seen dozens and dozens, stay out in that same time period. 
 

By removing the flag I’ve dropped my risk from a small chance it will glance the flag and stay out to ZERO. If even ONE putt is missed off the flagstick, and I’ve seen plenty, it is a better play to remove it entirely. No studies needed. 

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

Between March2020 to May 2020, when we were Covid-forced to leave the sticks in, I had 13 putts I know were in glance the stick and stay out. These ranged from 1-foot (which cost me $13) to 25 feet. In those two months, I also saw DOZENS of other likely made putts glance the flagstick and stay out.

 

Since we have been allowed to pull sticks, May 2020 to November 2023, I have had ZERO of my putts glance flagsticks and stay out. Because it’s always out. Yet, for people that I have played with that leave it in, I’ve seen dozens and dozens, stay out in that same time period. 
 

By removing the flag I’ve dropped my risk from a small chance it will glance the flag and stay out to ZERO. If even ONE putt is missed off the flagstick, and I’ve seen plenty, it is a better play to remove it entirely. No studies needed. 

 

Your anecdotes are sufficient "proof" for you only. The Rules work for you just as they work for others. Getting rid of old 15-3 was progress. 

[SNIPERBBB]

For the dont allow taking the flag out at all, obviously some of you dont play hilly courses...Some holes on said courses you can only tell if the green is clear if the flag has been replaced by the group in front of you. Also you dont play with seniors or guys that need to have the little ball retriever thing on their putters to get the ball out of the hole.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

Between March2020 to May 2020, when we were Covid-forced to leave the sticks in, I had 13 putts I know were in glance the stick and stay out. These ranged from 1-foot (which cost me $13) to 25 feet. In those two months, I also saw DOZENS of other likely made putts glance the flagstick and stay out.

 

Since we have been allowed to pull sticks, May 2020 to November 2023, I have had ZERO of my putts glance flagsticks and stay out. Because it’s always out. Yet, for people that I have played with that leave it in, I’ve seen dozens and dozens, stay out in that same time period. 
 

By removing the flag I’ve dropped my risk from a small chance it will glance the flag and stay out to ZERO. If even ONE putt is missed off the flagstick, and I’ve seen plenty, it is a better play to remove it entirely. No studies needed. 

 

I've recorded video of people hitting the flagstick on putts they thought "for sure" were in. Often the ball would have rolled 5+ feet past the hole if it had missed, and thus, not gone in the hole unless it hit the exact dead middle.

 

You may be right about some of those, but I'd wager a lot of money (not that it's possible) that you'd be wrong about a few, and that the flagstick kept your ball closer to the hole (or you holed a few you'd have lipped out otherwise) than if the flagstick had been out.

 

People are generally bad at perceiving ball speed when the ball is rolling away from them.

 

But whatever.

[nsxguy]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:20 AM, Augster said:

Between March2020 to May 2020, when we were Covid-forced to leave the sticks in, I had 13 putts I know were in glance the stick and stay out. These ranged from 1-foot (which cost me $13) to 25 feet. In those two months, I also saw DOZENS of other likely made putts glance the flagstick and stay out.

 

Since we have been allowed to pull sticks, May 2020 to November 2023, I have had ZERO of my putts glance flagsticks and stay out. Because it’s always out. Yet, for people that I have played with that leave it in, I’ve seen dozens and dozens, stay out in that same time period. 
 

By removing the flag I’ve dropped my risk from a small chance it will glance the flag and stay out to ZERO. If even ONE putt is missed off the flagstick, and I’ve seen plenty, it is a better play to remove it entirely. No studies needed. 

 

 

My brother, you've got some memory.

 

I play, on average between 2&3 rounds per week and I'm betting I haven't seen 13 putts hit the flagstick and come out SINCE March of 2020.

 

I had a short putt hit the stick and come out late in a round recently likely because I took it too casually. Didn't pay attention because I wasn't having a good round and knew I wasn't going to cash. So, lack of care, not lack of pulling the stick.

 

And, like others, I've seen others hit the stick and come out with a putt that was hit so hard it wouldn't have hit the back of the cup and stay in and the player's groaning "Man, that woulda been in" - and I'm quietly laughing to myself. 

 

And then there are those same guys hitting that same (too fast) putt that crashes dead center into the pin and goes straight down - and those guys ain't giving it back.

 

The putts I've seen hit the flagstick and come out are typically on the low side where the stick is slightly leaning and allowing slightly less room on that side of the stick - and in those cases hitting the stick will kick it out.

 

Then again, the high side of the hole has a little more room for the ball to go in, about the same as the low side is "squeezed" for it to come out. 50/50 in my mind.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by nsxguy

[kiwigolf72]

Just my experience and unlike other informed and un informed posters I haven't read up on this, so have no evidence except my experience.

I tried the flag in,but early on I had a putt that was dead centre and what I thought was good speed hit the pin and stayed out.

From then on I was concious of this and found that I was dying the ball in to avoid hitting the pin. The result was that I simply wasn't making as many putts.

I am a pin out player unless Its straight downhill and the pin might help stop my ball.

Edited November 22, 2023 by kiwigolf72
Spelling

[North Butte]

I'm agnostic, if it's in when I'm ready to putt it stays in, if someone wants it out I'll just leave it out. Any 0.1 stroke per round difference one way or another is lost in the scoring noise for me. 

 

The exception would be a couple years ago I had three putts bounce off the stick within two round, two of them on the back nine of the same round. I will admit I got spooked and for my next several rounds I pulled it every time. But that was too much work so I reverted back to laissez fair pretty quickly and I can't remember the last time a well-paced putt bounced out. Maybe back in the summer some time.

[bobfoster]

On 11/18/2023 at 9:06 PM, golfortennis said:

Was watching the LET this morning, and saw a player with a putt, and her caddie tending the flag, and the announcer stating she was aiming at his left foot.

 

So, a few years ago, the rule was changed to allow putting with the pin in.  At the same time, caddies were now prevented to line up their player for a shot.  Seeing the above, it appears to me the rules makers missed an opportunity.  If caddies are not allowed to line up putts, they shouldn't be allowed to tend pins and put down an aiming point.  My thought would be you can have the pin in, out, but not tended and having an aiming point. 

 

Given that the rules do tend to have some less obvious reasons for existing or not existing, am I missing something here?   

The topic made me giggle. Don't think this is a rules question, I think the announcer was a freaking idiot (a not entirely uncommon event). If I'm far enough from the hole that I would actually have a caddy tending the pin, I'm not going to be "aiming" at some guy's foot 20 feet away for goodness sake. I'm going to read the green, assess speed and line, and pick a point maybe 2 - 3 feet in front of me that is the line I want my putt to start on. I'll glance at the flag just before putting, but only to do a sort of final speed calibration. I presume most pros (and even most decent amateurs) do this. 

 

The caddy may have been standing next to the hole tending the flag, and the player's initial line may have coincided with where one of the guy's feet happened to be, but I'd be willing to bet that half the damn time a caddy is tending a flag that would appear to be the case. And how would you "aim" at a foot anyway? A foot is (relatively speaking) gigantic - in fact the average foot is almost wider than the hole. When I'm about to putt, I'm usually looking at a spot 3 feet in front of me that is the size of a dime - aiming at a size 10 foot so far away that the pin needs to be tended is an almost  idiotic thought. It literally makes no sense. 

 

So I think this topic may be less about the RoG than it is about the almost mind-bogglingly dumb things announcers come up with. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by bobfoster

[4Eyes]

When I first started playing golf in the 1960s I was taught that proper etiquette when tending the flagstick was to stand on the low side of the hole.

[Shilgy]

43 minutes ago, 4Eyes said:

When I first started playing golf in the 1960s I was taught that proper etiquette when tending the flagstick was to stand on the low side of the hole.

Why would you stand where the ball is most likely to finish?  I’m from the same era and was told to stand on the high side.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, 4Eyes said:

When I first started playing golf in the 1960s I was taught that proper etiquette when tending the flagstick was to stand on the low side of the hole.

Standing on the low side always eliminates the appearance of evil, ie, you are obviously not standing in a position where the player can use part of your body as a target.

[ThinkingPlus]

10 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Standing on the low side always eliminates the appearance of evil, ie, you are obviously not standing in a position where the player can use part of your body as a target.

Yes, it is very common for players to look at the hole or their distant aiming point when putting from a range usually associated with tending the pin. Y'all just being silly now.