Should the wrists hinge vertically or should trail wrist go into extension on backswing?

[Liveonce]

Thoughts? Obviously there’s a little bit of both, but two distinct different feelings when I try both. Any thoughts ?

[b.mattay]

It’s both as you said but from a simplistic view, backswing to rib high=vertical and anything past that=extension. I like watching guys like Hovland or Sam Burns for this (even though some other pieces/planes might be different)! 

[Soloman1]

The trail wrist already starts in extension.

 

If you’re a flat lead wrist person, it stays the same. If you’re a going into flexion lead wrist person, the trail wrist has to move into more extension. They move together.

 

If you’re a lead wrist person into extension, you got bigger fish to fry. 🙂

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Soloman1

[Zitlow]

The logo on the grip faces the sky until the right elbow bends at P2 and then it faces you. Vertical hinging the hands and rolling the left forearm off the ball I've seen taught here is inconsistent.  

 

Any extraneous motion going back slows down the reflexes coming down. Your kinetic chains can do the work faster and more efficiently than you can by consciously manipulating the club. 

 

[getitdaily]

I'll be glad to be corrected if I'm wrong...but I think wrist movement (within acceptable ranges) is a matchup to hand path. The more the arms work up the less vertical hinge. The more the hands and arms work in, the more vertical hinge.

[Simpsonia]

Wrist hinge (ulnar/radial deviation) is mostly a pattern thing, but in most instances is still very overdone by amateurs. Even on the top end, most pros only get about a total ~30-35 degrees of hinge movement from address to top of backswing and back down to impact. Now envision how little wrist hinge that actually is compared to if you were thinking that 90 degrees (as it can appear in many face on photos) is the proper amount of hinge.

 

Some pros have a pattern that limits the wrist hinge even more. Rahm/DJ only have about 20 degrees of radial/ulnar movement from address to top of backswing and back to impact. This probably feels like pre-setting impact wrist-conditions and not allowing any hinge (radial/ulnar) at all, because feel isn't real and the wrists will move a small amount. 

 

Personally, I've found a lot more success in emulating Rahm/DJ and utilizing only wrist flexion (lead) and extension (trail), and presetting my ulnar deviation (vertical hinge), but it's definitely not a pattern for everyone. 

[Righty to Lefty]

You shouldn't be intentionally doing anything with your wrists in actuality and if you are, then are are being distracted and you  are creating unnecessary variables in your swing motion that will make it much more difficult to play golf.  In no other sport do we analyze positions that occur within fractions of a second like we do in golf. This is in part because golf isn't a reactionary sport like tennis or baseball, but it amazes me how fast we take all the athleticism out of golf because of that fact when we shouldn't be. 

 

If you make a swing motion, your wrists will hinge some amount depending on your physical ability, in some direction, and you should do nothing to try and make this happen because it will happen in just the right amount, given the force generated, so long as you allow it to happen and don't try to manipulate things as we all have out natural rhythm to how we move depending on our physical make up.  Anything you do to manipulate it while the body isn't capable invites injury to happen down the road. If you could turn more you would, and your wrists will hinge in a certain way without you being aware of it. 

 

I assure you no pro or good golfer is thinking about their wrist hinge during their swing motion and anything that you see on video is that golfer's reaction to the force they are creating with the club and should not be imitated because that is that particular golfers swing fingerprint and they/we are all unique.  Rahm's swing is short because isn't physically capable of having a longer backswing while others easily go past parallel.  Adam Scott is the most physically gifted pro to ever be measured at the Titleist Performance Institute, thus it makes complete sense that he has the most "aesthetically" pleasing swing, it is because he is the most physically capable. That being said, you are witnessing each golfer swing within their given physical ability. The force of the golf swing will hinge your wrists for you and there is no reason to try force a given movement as it will not lead to long term consistency. That being said the body/ swing will adapt as the body becomes more or less physically capable. Am I making sense? R to L

[getitdaily]

16 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You shouldn't be intentionally doing anything with your wrists in actuality and if you are, then are are being distracted and you  are creating unnecessary variables in your swing motion that will make it much more difficult to play golf.  In no other sport do we analyze positions that occur within fractions of a second like we do in golf. This is in part because golf isn't a reactionary sport like tennis or baseball, but it amazes me how fast we take all the athleticism out of golf because of that fact when we shouldn't be. 

 

If you make a swing motion, your wrists will hinge some amount depending on your physical ability, in some direction, and you should do nothing to try and make this happen because it will happen in just the right amount, given the force generated, so long as you allow it to happen and don't try to manipulate things as we all have out natural rhythm to how we move depending on our physical make up.  Anything you do to manipulate it while the body isn't capable invites injury to happen down the road. If you could turn more you would, and your wrists will hinge in a certain way without you being aware of it. 

 

I assure you no pro or good golfer is thinking about their wrist hinge during their swing motion and anything that you see on video is that golfer's reaction to the force they are creating with the club and should not be imitated because that is that particular golfers swing fingerprint and they/we are all unique.  Rahm's swing is short because isn't physically capable of having a longer backswing while others easily go past parallel.  Adam Scott is the most physically gifted pro to ever be measured at the Titleist Performance Institute, thus it makes complete sense that he has the most "aesthetically" pleasing swing, it is because he is the most physically capable. That being said, you are witnessing each golfer swing within their given physical ability. The force of the golf swing will hinge your wrists for you and there is no reason to try force a given movement as it will not lead to long term consistency. That being said the body/ swing will adapt as the body becomes more or less physically capable. Am I making sense? R to L

You should ask Butch Harmon why he got so many handle draggers to get better by setting the wrists earlier. 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You shouldn't be intentionally doing anything with your wrists in actuality and if you are, then are are being distracted and you  are creating unnecessary variables in

Many don’t binge them properly and many are late. Wrists like many movements have to be trained to work the right way. So those who aren’t doing need to consciously do it til it becomes natural. Once it’s natural then yes they won’t have to intentionally do it 

[KD1]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Am I making sense?

 

No. That's not how the nervous system works. There's nothing natural about the golf swing. You have to consciously train the motor patterns before they can become unconscious. Mr Miyagi didn't simply tell Danielsan to not think about how to block kicks and punches and to just do it. He exhaustively drilled him with wax on and wax off in a very specific way until it became natural.

Edited December 27, 2023 by KD1

[MonteScheinblum]

17 hours ago, Liveonce said:

Thoughts? Obviously there’s a little bit of both, but two distinct different feelings when I try both. Any thoughts ?

Early vertical. late extension.  Then blend it.  That takes time for a lot of people.

 

As to what a few other said, I agree.  The age old, “You shouldn’t actively do it” argument fails.  Every movement in the swing people seem to say it should be natural.  That’s fine if you do it already.  However, for a huge percentage of golfers, the screen shot below is what come naturally.

[Righty to Lefty]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

You should ask Butch Harmon why he got so many handle draggers to get better by setting the wrists earlier. 

I don't need to because what does that even mean if I tell you to "set your wrists early."  Tell me at what exact point during my swing motion I am to set them...tell me exactly at what point is too late or too early...the point is you can't, because the swing is happening too fast and none of it will be reliable from day to day because the body is in constant state of change so internal cues are unreliable.  How many people have you ever seen "handle drag" in a practice swing...I'll wait for you to scour the internet to find one but the reality is that you won't find one?

 

Handle dragging occurs only when the ball is present because the person does not realize that they are out of position to the ball, and yet the body was told to hit a golf ball at a given target and is instinctively trying to do what you asked of it but the ball wasn't struck when it should have been along the swing arc so the body begins to contort itself to try and accomplish the task. Setting your wrists early in no way fixes "handle dragging" moving to a different location in relation to the ball is what fixes handle dragging and is the true root of the issue. If you position yourself correctly in relation to the ball handle dragging can't occur, just like if you are out of position, it must occur to hit the ball at a given target with maximum leverage. 

 

Being told by Butch Harmon to immediately compromise your swing motion is part of the problem and teachers touting swing systems are quickly dying off now that we know that you can swing your swing and make minor tweaks and be a very good golfer or even a pro. Speith and Westwood have chicken wings but are successful touring pros so what is more important, correcting a perceived "flaw, or learning how to work your natural swing motion around the ball to find the location where you can hit it in relation to your intentions? Monitoring your wrist hinge is a distraction from what really determines a good golf shot and that is your position in relation to the ball.     

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

27 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Many don’t binge them properly and many are late. Wrists like many movements have to be trained to work the right way. So those who aren’t doing need to consciously do it til it becomes natural. Once it’s natural then yes they won’t have to intentionally do it 

That is simply not true because if that were true it would apply to all stick and ball sports such as baseball and tennis.  I have never had a wrist movement training session in any of my days playing baseball or tennis.  I have learned that my tennis serve must be struck at a certain point if I am to hit a certain location along the service box and that golf is no different.  I knew that I had to hit a baseball at a certain point in the strike zone to hit it with maximum leverage but we never studied film about my wrist angles in any of those sports. Have you ever seen a wrist angle training session in regards to swinging an axe?  Of course no. A golf swing motion is not much different than hitting an axe into the lower part of a tree. 

 

15 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

No. That's not how the nervous system works. There's nothing natural about the golf swing. You have to consciously train the motor patterns before they can become unconscious. Mr Miyagi didn't simply tell Danielsan to not think about how to block kicks and punches and to just do it. He exhaustively drilled him with wax on and wax off until it became natural.

You prove my point on your example.  He made him do something completely unassociated with fight sport that had an application somewhere else.  At no point while Danielson was waxing cars were wrist angles mentioned I assure you.  Danielson was making a motion that later applied to fighting without thought. If the force of the club doesn't set your wrists then that person should be given a heavier ax/ golf club and told to "wax on" or "wax off" and I promise the wrists will set if the athlete is physically capable and doesn't have any issues regarding wrist range of motion.  

[Soloman1]

We’re going to need more words.

[KD1]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

At no point while Danielson was waxing cars were wrist angles mentioned I assure you

You're correct. He only needed to specify wrist angles to Danielsan during the fence painting exercise 😁

Edited December 27, 2023 by KD1

[GoGoErky]

48 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

That is simply not true because if that were true it would apply to all stick and ball sports such as baseball and tennis.  I have never had a wrist movement training session in any of my days playing baseball or tennis.  I have learned that my tennis serve must be struck at a certain point if I am to hit a certain location along the service box and that golf is no different.  I knew that I had to hit a baseball at a certain point in the strike zone to hit it with maximum leverage but we never studied film about my wrist angles in any of those sports. Have you ever seen a wrist angle training session in regards to swinging an axe?  Of course no. A golf swing motion is not much different than hitting an axe into the lower part of a tree. 

 

You prove my point on your example.  He made him do something completely unassociated with fight sport that had an application somewhere else.  At no point while Danielson was waxing cars were wrist angles mentioned I assure you.  Danielson was making a motion that later applied to fighting without thought. If the force of the club doesn't set your wrists then that person should be given a heavier ax/ golf club and told to "wax on" or "wax off" and I promise the wrists will set if the athlete is physically capable and doesn't have any issues regarding wrist range of motion.  

Might want to read an experts opinion above yours. As he said some people do it naturally. Good die them. Most don’t and need to train the movement pattern. Also see the example of what happens naturally by the same expert 

[iacas]

45 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

We’re going to need more words.

 

I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I've seen someone write so much that I disagree with as much as those recent posts. Wow.

 

It's not worth the time, but I almost wonder if reversing or saying the opposite of every sentence wouldn't be more accurate.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by iacas

[PracticeSwinger]

3 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

Wrist hinge (ulnar/radial deviation) is mostly a pattern thing, but in most instances is still very overdone by amateurs. Even on the top end, most pros only get about a total ~30-35 degrees of hinge movement from address to top of backswing and back down to impact. Now envision how little wrist hinge that actually is compared to if you were thinking that 90 degrees (as it can appear in many face on photos) is the proper amount of hinge.

 

Some pros have a pattern that limits the wrist hinge even more. Rahm/DJ only have about 20 degrees of radial/ulnar movement from address to top of backswing and back to impact. This probably feels like pre-setting impact wrist-conditions and not allowing any hinge (radial/ulnar) at all, because feel isn't real and the wrists will move a small amount. 

 

Personally, I've found a lot more success in emulating Rahm/DJ and utilizing only wrist flexion (lead) and extension (trail), and presetting my ulnar deviation (vertical hinge), but it's definitely not a pattern for everyone. 

If we suppose one has a relatively neutral lead-trail hands grip; I've always wondered if the 'Porzak' takeaway; lead hand pushing down / vertical hinge early  / hand path staying in - isn't putting us at risk of too much lead radial getting to the cup; 'loose wrists' since we've got a lot of range of motion that way (think Cam Smith with driver getting to the top) and thus having to 'loop it' back behing us with a lot of trail wrist extension in transition / downswing : strangely, I can strike it really well that way... when going for a Collin / Rahm type, weak lead hand grip it certainly limits the radial motion range (can't go much radial when flexed) but it puts me in laid off position getting to the top, finding it a lot tougher to stay shallow coming down that way... lovely game haha 

[Zitlow]

This might be of interest to those who are overthinking the wrist c0ck. 

 

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I've seen someone write so much that I disagree with as much as those recent posts. Wow.

 

It's not worth the time, but I almost wonder if reversing or saying the opposite of every sentence wouldn't be more accurate.

 

Great then post your thoughts and explanations as you are welcome to do and let the people take in your information and mine and go test and report back their findings. I assure you I don't just make things up out of thin air like you try to assert. I assure you that I am not wrong as I learned many valuable lessons from playing the game both right and left handed and I am assuring you that focusing on wrist angles aint it. I will not be disrespectful to you or anyone else that has an opposing viewpoint but I will say for those with an open mind to go out and test and come back with their findings and question anything that I post and I will gladly respond and back up what I post.  I receive many offline messages from those that simply haven't thought of things the way that I pose them and upon working with me are amazed at the level of improvement and understanding that they have gained. 

 

36 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Might want to read an experts opinion above yours. As he said some people do it naturally. Good die them. Most don’t and need to train the movement pattern. Also see the example of what happens naturally by the same expert 

Muscles do not have memory, anytime you are hitting a shot you are hitting that shot from a reference from the weight of the club that you develop over time and learn to trust.  The better the golfer, the tighter these references are and that is why a rank beginner is terrible in the beginning.  It isn't because they don't have a good swing, it is because they have no reference from which to hit a given shot.  From simple observation a child will develop a perfectly good swing motion very quickly from pure observation, and then swing and miss the ball repeatedly until they work themselves around the ball and hit it. They will then instinctively go back to that spot and try to repeat the shot and there is no mention of movement patterns or the such made to children taking up the game yet adult learners over analyze things believing that they will unlock their game when it won't and we should be working from impact backwards towards address as that is what truly governs a given shot.  

 

48 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Might want to read an experts opinion above yours. As he said some people do it naturally. Good die them. Most don’t and need to train the movement pattern. Also see the example of what happens naturally by the same expert 

Internal cues are proven to not be reliable because the body is never the same from day to day and external cues are proven to be the best way to improve.  If someone doesn't set their wrists naturally they either have physical impairment or their clubs are not heavy enough because wrist angles will be created naturally if the athlete is creating enough force in all but the most extreme situations as any manipulation will not lead to long term success because it can't be relied upon because it is an internal cue.  

 

Standby and I will make a video in a few mins and upload that will cover everything needed to know about wrist angles that will take less than a few mins to explain just to prove the point that monitoring wrist angles is not necessary and impact should be the focus.  

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

This might be of interest

 

Narrator: He would in fact lose that angle during the golf swing.

 

9 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Great then post your thoughts and explanations as you are welcome to do and let the people take in your information and mine and go test and report back their findings. I assure you I don't just make things up out of thin air like you try to assert.

 

Uhhh, you made up that I "tried to assert" that you "make things up out of thin air."

 

I made an exception just now, but you're on my ignore list for a reason, and I'm going to go right back to ignoring you as soon as I hit "Save" here on this edit.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by iacas
Added another part

[KD1]

48 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Muscles do not have memory, anytime you are hitting a shot you are hitting that shot from a reference from the weight of the club that you develop over time and learn to trust.  The better the golfer, the tighter these references are and that is why a rank beginner is terrible in the beginning.  It isn't because they don't have a good swing, it is because they have no reference from which to hit a given shot.  From simple observation a child will develop a perfectly good swing motion very quickly from pure observation, and then swing and miss the ball repeatedly until they work themselves around the ball and hit it. They will then instinctively go back to that spot and try to repeat the shot and there is no mention of movement patterns or the such made to children taking up the game yet adult learners over analyze things believing that they will unlock their game when it won't and we should be working from impact backwards towards address as that is what truly governs a given shot.  

 

Children have a neurological advantage when it comes to learning new skills. "You can't it's harder to teach an old dog new tricks"

 

"direct your perception to particular elements of the movement in order to accelerate learning further.
...
once you're familiar with something and you're performing it well every once in a while... then you can start to cue your attention in very deliberate ways... the question becomes what to cue your attention to. The good news is it doesn't matter... cue my attention to something very specific... as long as it's the same thing throughout the session, learning is accelerated... what you pay attention to exactly is not important. what's important is that you pay attention to one specific thing." ~57min

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by KD1

[GoGoErky]

53 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Muscles do not have memory, anytime you are hitting a shot you are hitting that shot from a reference from the weight of the club that you develop over time and learn to trust. 

 You are correct but we have motor neurons and the send signals and tell the muscles/body what to do. When the movement is incorrect a new motor path has to be created and this is what training the wrists to do creates for those who aren’t moving their wrists properly in the swing. So when the body and wrists are moving incorrectly the weight of the club is in the wrong spot.

56 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

From simple observation a child will develop a perfectly good swing motion very quickly from pure observation, and then swing and miss the ball repeatedly until they work themselves around the ball and hit it. They will then instinctively go back to that spot and try to repeat the shot and there is no mention of movement patterns or the such made to children

It’s because they are too weak to overpower the club and find the efficient pattern to swing the club. Teenagers and adults who are stronger can overpower the club and make

inefficient moves thinking they are more powerful when in fact they aren’t. Monte talks about that all the time here after seeing it over and over on the lesson tee. 
 

So these people have to retrain their movement patterns. 
 

 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Internal cues are proven to not be reliable because the body is never the same from day to day and external cues are proven to be the best way to improve.  If someone doesn't set their wrists naturally they either have physical impairment or their clubs are not heavy enough because wrist angles will be created naturally if the athlete is creating enough force in all but the most extreme situations as any manipulation will not lead to long term success because it can't be relied upon because it is an internal cue.  

It’s why they have to be trained slowly and over long periods of time as well as continually even after they have been learned because yes we all fall into old habits under pressure. Its why the good ones focus on fundamentals all the time so that they remain as engrained motor patterns.

 

When learning a new movement slow reps are used to create the closed-loop motor patterns. Speed and or weight is added depending on what’s being taught. Eventually the movement becomes natural and is now an open-loop motor pattern.

 

Similar to Monte’s experience of having to learn to walk again and realizing how incorrectly he used to walk which many would consider a natural movement since we do it from a young age

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Uhhh, you made up that I "tried to assert" that you "make things up out of thin air."

I can’t recall a post he has made in this forum that anyone with experience and knowledge in the field agreed with. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by GoGoErky

[kowalgolf]

19 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

The trail wrist already starts in extension.

 

If you’re a flat lead wrist person, it stays the same. If you’re a going into flexion lead wrist person, the trail wrist has to move into more extension. They move together.

 

If you’re a lead wrist person into extension, you got bigger fish to fry. 🙂

 

Please explain the last sentence???

[KD1]

5 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

When learning a new movement slow reps are used to create the closed-loop motor patterns. Speed and or weight is added depending on what’s being taught. Eventually the movement becomes natural and is now an open-loop motor pattern.

 

From the Dr Huberman video I linked above you might be interested in this points at 16min  and 1hr 7min . Ultra slow reps being closed loop is an interesting way to think about it and I suppose it makes perfect sense, the feedback is being able to observe the movement itself rather than the external results of the rep?

[GoGoErky]

5 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

From the Dr Huberman video I linked above you might be interested in this points at 16min  and 1hr 7min . Ultra slow reps being closed loop is an interesting way to think about it and I suppose it makes perfect sense, the feedback is being able to observe the movement itself rather than the external results of the rep?

it’s been an interesting part of my studies for corrective movement. After assessing a client and trying to correct movement patterns to fix let’s say a squat one would start with light weight and high reps using slow movements to teach/learn the proper way to move. You observe the movement and make corrections where needed. As the client improves you had weight and speed. This is closed loop.

 

Once that movement has been learned which can take 8-12 weeks before it becomes a natural movement for that client. They can do the movement without having to think about it. I’ve read that it takes upwards of 3000 reps to master a movement. 

 

The same concept applies to any motor pattern. 

[Soloman1]

19 minutes ago, kowalgolf said:

Please explain the last sentence???

 

Sure. The shaft will be very steep, so more motion will be necessary to address that. The wrist will have to reduce extension during the downswing to flatten, in addition to supinating the elbow and the rest of the arms motion. That’s a very uncommon pattern.

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

If we suppose one has a relatively neutral lead-trail hands grip; I've always wondered if the 'Porzak' takeaway; lead hand pushing down / vertical hinge early  / hand path staying in - isn't putting us at risk of too much lead radial getting to the cup; 'loose wrists' since we've got a lot of range of motion that way (think Cam Smith with driver getting to the top) and thus having to 'loop it' back behing us with a lot of trail wrist extension in transition / downswing : strangely, I can strike it really well that way... when going for a Collin / Rahm type, weak lead hand grip it certainly limits the radial motion range (can't go much radial when flexed) but it puts me in laid off position getting to the top, finding it a lot tougher to stay shallow coming down that way... lovely game haha 

 

It's a bit counter-intuitive, isn't it? The loop has a greater overall shallowing effect than a flat shaft (or pre-shallowed as Tyler Ferrell likes to call it), so that the flat swing needs a bit more body-shallowing component to compensate. I mostly go for the Rahm/DJ pattern in an effort to reduce timing variables. The loop is more difficult for me to time up with the rest of the pivot sequence, so I just try to eliminate that variable, along with others (such as radial/ulnar deviation). I've been blessed with a strong and mobile body, but simultaneously cursed with a complete lack of natural athletic talent (ie timing), so I go with the swing where I can preset a lot of those variables.