Should the wrists hinge vertically or should trail wrist go into extension on backswing?

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

 You are correct but we have motor neurons and the send signals and tell the muscles/body what to do. When the movement is incorrect a new motor path has to be created and this is what training the wrists to do creates for those who aren’t moving their wrists properly in the swing. So when the body and wrists are moving incorrectly the weight of the club is in the wrong spot.

It’s because they are too weak to overpower the club and find the efficient pattern to swing the club. Teenagers and adults who are stronger can overpower the club and make

inefficient moves thinking they are more powerful when in fact they aren’t. Monte talks about that all the time here after seeing it over and over on the lesson tee. 
 

So these people have to retrain their movement patterns. 
 

 

Well said.  There’s a huge disconnect for a lot of people who think their own feels and skills translate across the board.  Gary Player comes to mind.  Obviously one of the greatest players ever, but nearly every word out of his mouth about what to do in a good swing is objectively wrong.  
 

The issue then becomes the percentage of people who would listen to him versus a random bozo like me is like 95/5.  Therein lies the issue on why so many golfers don’t get better.  Their perception of what happens in a good swing is jaded by years and decades of anachronistic ideas that many people played great golf with in spite of being objectively wrong.

 

EVERY day people come to my lesson tee struggling horribly.  I say here’s why.  They say, “You're not supposed to do that?”

 

Followed by….

 

1. Famous golfer X said to do that.

2. My (fill in the blank relative, friend, co worker) is a scratch golfer and he said to do that.

3.  I saw a guy on TikTok with 300,000 followers say that.

 

Problem is the number of good players who actually do that is close enough to zero that you can say it’s zero. 
 

 

 

 

[Simpsonia]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

 

It’s because they are too weak to overpower the club and find the efficient pattern to swing the club. Teenagers and adults who are stronger can overpower the club and make

inefficient moves thinking they are more powerful when in fact they aren’t. Monte talks about that all the time here after seeing it over and over on the lesson tee. 
 

 

 

I will say, I've really found some good grooves when I've practiced and pretended to be incredibly weak (or a very heavy club) to find those efficient pathways to get the club to the ball. I've always wondered if a 10-20lb club would be a good trainer device to teach adults in the same way, something heavy enough to be impossible for an adult to overpower in the same way. I think it's a similar concept to what Dr. Kwon tries to teach with his use of the E-Bell (and previously kettle bells). 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Simpsonia

[GoGoErky]

2 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

I will say, I've really found some good grooves when I've practiced and pretended to be incredibly weak (or a very heavy club) to find those efficient pathways to get the club to the ball. I've always wondered if a 10-20lb club would be a good trainer device to teach adults in the same way, something heavy enough to be impossible for an adult to overpower in the same way. I think it's a similar concept to what Dr. Kwon tries to teach with his use of the E-Bell (and previously kettle bells). 

I would agree. I think it’s what makes the momentus club a good training aid. Iirc Porzak uses it for similar reasons in his lessons. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

I will say, I've really found some good grooves when I've practiced and pretended to be incredibly weak (or a very heavy club) to find those efficient pathways to get the club to the ball. I've always wondered if a 10-20lb club would be a good trainer device to teach adults in the same way, something heavy enough to be impossible for an adult to overpower in the same way. I think it's a similar concept to what Dr. Kwon tries to teach with his use of the E-Bell (and previously kettle bells). 

 

When I was a kid, almost everyone hit big hooks (felt kinda like Hogan in that we hit draws "for extra power" or something).

 

When I attended a junior event as a 30-year-old, I was surprised at the number of kids hitting slices. I thought about it quite a bit, and one of the conclusions was that the advent of lightweight junior clubs led to kids who could "overpower" the club and swing like adults do, and thus hit the same shots (slices) as adults do.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

I would agree. I think it’s what makes the momentus club a good training aid. Iirc Porzak uses it for similar reasons in his lessons. 

 

I bought 100 of these: https://torcswingtrainer.com. I use them frequently in lessons. I recommend them quite a bit, and love that you can adjust the height of the weight. Right beneath the grip, the club feels and behaves a lot like a heavier version of your club, because the swing weight feels basically the same as your club. The farther toward the clubhead you move the weight, the more you can feel what the head and shaft are doing, particularly in transition.

[GoGoErky]

15 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Well said.  There’s a huge disconnect for a lot of people who think their own feels and skills translate across the board.  Gary Player comes to mind.  Obviously one of the greatest players ever, but nearly every word out of his mouth about what to do in a good swing is objectively wrong.  
 

The issue then becomes the percentage of people who would listen to him versus a random bozo like me is like 95/5.  Therein lies the issue on why so many golfers don’t get better.  Their perception of what happens in a good swing is jaded by years and decades of anachronistic ideas that many people played great golf with in spite of being objectively wrong.

 

EVERY day people come to my lesson tee struggling horribly.  I say here’s why.  They say, “You're not supposed to do that?”

 

Followed by….

 

1. Famous golfer X said to do that.

2. My (fill in the blank relative, friend, co worker) is a scratch golfer and he said to do that.

3.  I saw a guy on TikTok with 300,000 followers say that.

 

Problem is the number of good players who actually do that is close enough to zero that you can say it’s zero. 
 

 

 

 

We talk about it when it comes to squatting and people trying to squat like their favorite lifter or the strongest person in the gym or how they see some of the best in the world squat. They don’t understand we all have different leverages, different cues and even some adaptations for any imbalances. 
 

Just because X person squats a certain way doesn’t mean everyone should. There’s the technique to squat and each person has to find their width, their proper torso lean, etc 

[MonteScheinblum]

6 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

We talk about it when it comes to squatting and people trying to squat like their favorite lifter or the strongest person in the gym or how they see some of the best in the world squat. They don’t understand we all have different leverages, different cues and even some adaptations for any imbalances. 
 

Just because X person squats a certain way doesn’t mean everyone should. There’s the technique to squat and each person has to find their width, their proper torso lean, etc 

To take your analogy further….you have elite lifters saying what to do and they don’t actually do that, then trainers coming up with “innovative” ideas that no elite lifter has ever done and makes no biomechanical sense.

[MBAndrews21]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

 

It’s because they are too weak to overpower the club and find the efficient pattern to swing the club. Teenagers and adults who are stronger can overpower the club and make

inefficient moves thinking they are more powerful when in fact they aren’t. Monte talks about that all the time here after seeing it over and over on the lesson tee. 

This has me thinking…is swinging with a heavy club is a good idea? 

 

EDIT: went further down the thread ans was delighted to see that I wasn’t the only dummy to consider this.

Edited December 28, 2023 by MBAndrews21

[Avidswampthing66]

8 hours ago, getitdaily said:

You should ask Butch Harmon why he got so many handle draggers to get better by setting the wrists earlier. 

True.  The "setting early' gets you that serving platter look at top (layed off) and then you drop in the slot and rotate. (with a little side bend sauce)

[kowalgolf]

3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Sure. The shaft will be very steep, so more motion will be necessary to address that. The wrist will have to reduce extension during the downswing to flatten, in addition to supinating the elbow and the rest of the arms motion. That’s a very uncommon pattern.

Thankyou. It took me an hour and I agree. I go into flexion lead wrist person. I haven't paid much attention to the trail wrist going into more extension. That first 18 inches in moving the clubhead back has been my kryptonite for over 60 yrs.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

To take your analogy further….you have elite lifters saying what to do and they don’t actually do that, then trainers coming up with “innovative” ideas that no elite lifter has ever done and makes no biomechanical sense.

Exactly. 

[GoGoErky]

44 minutes ago, MBAndrews21 said:

This has me thinking…is swinging with a heavy club is a good idea? 

 

EDIT: went further down the thread ans was delighted to see that I wasn’t the only dummy to consider this.

I will let the reaching pros talk more about how many reps and how often to do them. @iacas uses heavier clubs with his students. Maybe he can touch on the protocols to use. But they are definitely a good tool

[Rapidcat]

I guess the Hackmotion folk are shutting up shop then?😄

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I bought 100 of these: https://torcswingtrainer.com. I use them frequently in lessons. I recommend them quite a bit, and love that you can adjust the height of the weight. Right beneath the grip, the club feels and behaves a lot like a heavier version of your club, because the swing weight feels basically the same as your club. The farther toward the clubhead you move the weight, the more you can feel what the head and shaft are doing, particularly in transition.

My son is one of those.  He’s a freshman, not tall (5-6), but he is a football player.  Played maybe 20-30 rounds of golf in his life, but can swing over 100 mph with an 8 left path banana fade.  COM comes WAY out.

 

Doesn’t do it on short game with a heavy wedge.  

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

11 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

I guess the Hackmotion folk are shutting up shop then?😄

I’m trying to be less of a hater as I get older and not be the, “Get off my lawn,” old dude, but the, “It should happen naturally” narrative crowd and, “It should be as natural as throwing a ball or walking,” nonsense.  No one wants to hear that every college and pro football and baseball team has a QB and pitching coach and they constantly change and refine mechanics and those are the elite.  PT’s say nearly everyone walks poorly.  Newley all pros at every level has a swing coach.  Yet the cult of “Just swing your swing” persists. Makes me empathize with Dexter.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Makes me empathize with Dexter.

 

Dexter was Breaking Bad before Breaking Bad. And just like Walt, everyone has a different point at which they flipped on Dexter.

 

10 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

I will let the reaching pros talk more about how many reps and how often to do them. @iacas uses heavier clubs with his students. Maybe he can touch on the protocols to use. But they are definitely a good tool

 

As a general rule, the farther down the shaft toward the clubhead I put the Torc, the slower I go with students. Down near the clubhead it can really flip your wrists if you're a kid or an older person or something.

 

Depending on the student and where the Torc is, at slow speeds I might use it for 20 swings in a row. When I get to the point where it's up under the grip and thus the club "feels" like a heavier version of their club with the same swing weight (balance), I generally only use it for 1/3 of the swings or so. I've talked to enough biomechanists and related folks that say that the small risk there is training to swing slower. Since the student isn't literally doing overspeed training, swinging a heavier thing can train the golfer to swing a little slower when trying to hit "normal" golf shots.

 

Now, I think that risk is small, so long as you don't do it all the time… but if you're going at full speed with the Torc up by the grip end, it's probably something you should start to be able to do soon without the Torc.

 

I do have one Torc I cut in half (so it weighs half as much), that I occasionally use as an intermediate step.

[KMeloney]

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I’m trying to be less of a hater as I get older and not be the, “Get off my lawn,” old dude, but the, “It should happen naturally” narrative crowd and, “It should be as natural as throwing a ball or walking,” nonsense.  No one wants to hear that every college and pro football and baseball team has a QB and pitching coach and they constantly change and refine mechanics and those are the elite.  PT’s say nearly everyone walks poorly.  Newley all pros at every level has a swing coach.  Yet the cult of “Just swing your swing” persists. Makes me empathize with Dexter.

 

Exactly right. And this crowd also conflates the idea that if a good player doesn't think about something during their swing, it's obviously not an important aspect of the swing that should get any thought. Meanwhile, they completely ignore the hours and hours of attention the player probably paid to that aspect of the swing in order to ingrain it and not have to think about it anymore.

[DShepley]

Going back to the original question......Does anyone else find that if you put your trail wrist into maximum extension that it goes into radial deviation on it's own?  Maybe I have messed up wrists, but for me, I find that I don't have to think much about the radial part if I work on the trail wrist extension.

 

For instance, if I address the ball and without moving my arms I only put my wrists into radial deviation, the club head rises off of the ground to about waist height directly in front of me and my lead wrist is in a cupped position.  On the other hand, if I start from address and without moving my arms put my trail wrist into maximum extension, the clubhead rises off of the ground to the same waist high position but the shaft is pointed off to the right.  My lead wrist moves into a flat or slightly bowed position.  Both movements seem to create the same amount of radial deviation but on the second movement it happened on it's own.

 

Is this the same for anyone else?  For me at least, I can radial deviate independent of adding much trail wrist extension but not vice versa.  If I add maximum trail wrist extension, the radial deviation seems to naturally happen.

[Righty to Lefty]

18 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

Children have a neurological advantage when it comes to learning new skills. "You can't it's harder to teach an old dog new tricks"

 

"direct your perception to particular elements of the movement in order to accelerate learning further.
...
once you're familiar with something and you're performing it well every once in a while... then you can start to cue your attention in very deliberate ways... the question becomes what to cue your attention to. The good news is it doesn't matter... cue my attention to something very specific... as long as it's the same thing throughout the session, learning is accelerated... what you pay attention to exactly is not important. what's important is that you pay attention to one specific thing." ~57min

 

 

I am pretty sure I have listened to snippets of this interview but I will listen to it. Much appreciated for sharing. 

 

17 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

 You are correct but we have motor neurons and the send signals and tell the muscles/body what to do. When the movement is incorrect a new motor path has to be created and this is what training the wrists to do creates for those who aren’t moving their wrists properly in the swing. So when the body and wrists are moving incorrectly the weight of the club is in the wrong spot.

 

It’s because they are too weak to overpower the club and find the efficient pattern to swing the club. Teenagers and adults who are stronger can overpower the club and make

inefficient moves thinking they are more powerful when in fact they aren’t. Monte talks about that all the time here after seeing it over and over on the lesson tee. 
 

So these people have to retrain their movement patterns. 
 

 

Much appreciate your post and that is exactly what I was stating in that manipulating your wrists into a certain position will not be reliable because that is an internal cue and thus when I mentioned that if someone isn't setting their wrists properly that they either have a physical impairment, or their clubs aren't heavy enough and addressing that ( external cue) will be much more effective because once the club is heavy enough a more efficient movement pattern is likely to occur as the spec of that club approaches their limit. 

 

I can hit off the rack clubs right handed just fine, but left handed my driver club head weighs 300 grams and that is because I generate much more force left handed and thus require much more weight so as to not overpower the club.  My lefty swing with an off the rack club was very inefficient and it lead to many injuries, but as I added weight to my clubs my swing motion really smoothed out and the injuries subsided because I was much more efficient.  I even began to get comments on my swing which was crazy to me because internally my swing motion felt the same, but outwardly the club's weight was smoothing things out. This is why I also mention in other threads that your clubs should be as heavy as you can tolerate, so long as they don't breach your limit.  

 

I completely agree with your suggestions on slow motions swings as I found that they require the most work to maintain stability and strike whereas when I do speed work I found the body is working so hard to counter the force being created that stability happens more naturally.  Of course this would be similar to doing say strict pull ups vs kipping ones but you are correct in that slow motion work is very effective because you will easily be able to call attention to, and become aware of the muscles that are needed to stabilize the swing motion so that they can be focused on during off course physical training.  You are also correct in that it takes a ton of work and reps but I found that weighting up my equipment definitely sped up the process.  

 

When I say "natural" swing motion I mean that we all have our own swing fingerprint and for the most part it won't change unless your fitness regime increases your physical capability.  Rahm physically can't get to parallel because of a physical barrier so he creates power in his way to work around it and unless he becomes more physically capable his swing won't change very dramatically. Most all of us, except Adam Scott, have some sort of physical impairment that determines how we swing the club. My posts are considered long and "wordy" and it is only a couple paragraphs, yet I am about to listen to a 2 hour podcast because I believe that I will learn something.  If you only talk to people you agree with then you will never find progress. Am I making sense R to L?

[GoGoErky]

14 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Much appreciate your post and that is exactly what I was stating in that manipulating your wrists into a certain position will not be reliable because that is an internal cue and thus when I mentioned that if someone isn't setting their wrists properly that they either have a physical impairment, or their clubs aren't heavy enough and addressing that ( external cue) will be much more effective because once the club is heavy enough a more efficient movement pattern is likely to occur as the spec of that club approaches their limit. 

Just not true. Adults are capable of overpowering heavy clubs with incorrect movements. Not sure why you are even trying to debate this when the the instructors in this thread have stated that 1) the golf swing is not natural 2) they have to teach people how to move and it takes reps with heavier clubs to teach it more easily. Watch people swing the momentus club there are still improper swings with it.

 

 

[KD1]

42 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Much appreciate your post and that is exactly what I was stating in that manipulating your wrists into a certain position will not be reliable because that is an internal cue and thus when I mentioned that if someone isn't setting their wrists properly that they either have a physical impairment, or their clubs aren't heavy enough and addressing that ( external cue) will be much more effective because once the club is heavy enough a more efficient movement pattern is likely to occur as the spec of that club approaches their limit.

 

A student might need to focus on internal cues for some time in order to develop the "central pattern generators" (ref. aforementioned podcast) to then be able to advance to external cues.

From the snippets I was quoting in my previous post, intense focus on very specific internal cues will expedite the development of the central pattern generators. I don't think anyone is arguing that one must always have and maintain these internal cues.

 

Regarding the use of heavy clubs or other training aids that physically force you into different positions (ie the aids do the work for you) can anyone reference any studies on their effectiveness vs more passive aids or learning mechanisms? I could be completely wrong here but I want to say I recall a Be Better Golf video where Brendan was discussing the results of a study of this nature that found these types of training aids were less effective...

 

(Edit) Here's something Motor Learning Research and Improving Golf Skills

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by KD1

[Zitlow]

When your upper body turns the left humerus bone internally rotates, when the right arm folds the club raises and the wrists c0ck.

 

It's like hammering a nail. The c0ck and uncock starts at the elbow not the hand. If you cast the club and then unfold your elbow you lose the correct sequence. 

 

Don't take my word for it get a club and try it for yourself. 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Zitlow

[Righty to Lefty]

My explanation of why it is not necessary to monitor wrist angles: 

 

@GoGoErky@KD1

Edited December 28, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[HiTrajLoSpin]

1 hour ago, DShepley said:

On the other hand, if I start from address and without moving my arms put my trail wrist into maximum extension, the clubhead rises off of the ground to the same waist high position but the shaft is pointed off to the right.  My lead wrist moves into a flat or slightly bowed position. 

That clubhead motion occurs for me as well, but it's because my trail wrist also has some simultaneous radial deviation, which then forces my lead wrist into a flat position with radial deviation. Unfortunately (as @MonteScheinblum can attest), many players accompany this desired movement with incorrect lead forearm pronation (roll), which moves the clubhead behind the hands.

Edited December 28, 2023 by HiTrajLoSpin

[DShepley]

12 minutes ago, HiTrajLoSpin said:

That clubhead motion occurs for me as well, but it's because my trail wrist also has some simultaneous radial deviation, which then forces my lead wrist into a flat position with radial deviation.

Right. But are you actively trying to add radial deviation in your trail wrist as you put it in extension?  I find it goes there on it's own.

[Righty to Lefty]

32 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

A student might need to focus on internal cues for some time in order to develop the "central pattern generators" (ref. aforementioned podcast) to then be able to advance to external cues.

From the snippets I was quoting in my previous post, intense focus on very specific internal cues will expedite the development of the central pattern generators. I don't think anyone is arguing that one must always have and maintain these internal cues.

 

Regarding the use of heavy clubs or other training aids that physically force you into different positions (ie the aids do the work for you) can anyone reference any studies on their effectiveness vs more passive aids or learning mechanisms? I could be completely wrong here but I want to say I recall a Be Better Golf video where Brendan was discussing the results of a study of this nature that found these types of training aids were less effective...

Why would you start with the least reliable method before moving on to a more reliable one? That makes no sense.  A student should be taught impact on day one before grip, stance, posture, or wrist angles are ever mentioned because those are not fundamentals of golf because they are not the same for everyone, but impact is.  The position that you have to put your hands on the club that creates the most force is the correct one for your current physical state.  If the club is too light the athlete will be inefficient, conversely if the club it too heavy it breaches a limit and the athlete will be inefficient. 

 

@GoGoErky I also never said heavy training aids, I said your actual clubs should be as heavy as you can handle, so long as they don't breach your limit. This is true in all stick and ball sports from baseball bats to tennis and badminton rackets because you will get the maximum efficiency out of them at that point and that is why my right and left handed club setups are very different and I can play off the rack clubs right handed yet need much heavier clubs left handed because I generate much more force and need more weight to create leverage against.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Righty to Lefty

[HiTrajLoSpin]

2 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Right. But are you actively trying to add radial deviation in your trail wrist as you put it in extension?  I find it goes there on it's own.

Hmm, I would have to say that I'm actively adding some radial deviation in the trail wrist.

[vman]

22 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

My explanation of why it is not necessary to monitor wrist angles: 

 

@GoGoErky@KD1

This is a good video in terms of “what’s right for me” and “in my opinion” but it’s not an, in action, coaching reality for the pupils that I’ve taught.

 

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

My explanation of why it is not necessary to monitor wrist angles: 

 

@GoGoErky@KD1

 

 

We all know feel is not real, but the entire concept in this video basically discounts any sort of release pattern. You're talking about putting energy in and flexing the shaft at impact, but what really happens in a swing with a real release is that the shaft is actually flexed in the opposite direction (toward the target) caused by the change in directions and kick of the shaft. If your shaft is flexing away from the target at impact (as you imply in your video here), then you're not actually releasing through impact. 

 

Edit: I'm not talking about the distortion from rolling shutter effect, but actual shaft kick which is a real thing that you get more or less of depending on shaft flex.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Simpsonia

[Righty to Lefty]

1 hour ago, vman said:

This is a good video in terms of “what’s right for me” and “in my opinion” but it’s not an, in action, coaching reality for the pupils that I’ve taught.

 

So this is my Son going through the very same process as a rank beginner. I have never mentioned anything to him about grip, stance, or posture I simply told him to pressure the back of the range mat and note where the ball needs to be. I simply work him around the ball to get him into position to hit the ball with max leverage for him and straighten out his shot when he asked me why it had a slight fade on it before we shot the video just to show him how fast he can hit a given shot that he intended:

 

 

I say my opinion to be respectful but I have lived this both right and left handed and impact is not opinion and the the true fundamental of golf. I was very position oriented when I played right handed and it took me six years to break 90 conversely being equipped with the knowledge of impact when I switched to left handed it took me 6 months to break 90.

 

Impact is the same for everyone and I can tell you precisely where a given shot must travel to be struck with max leverage just by seeing a still frame of your address position. I can also see a still frame of your impact and tell you if you struck the ball with max leverage or not because that information sits in plain sight if you are paying attention.  Impact is boss and should always be the focus if the intent is to gain lasting consistency.   

Edited December 28, 2023 by Righty to Lefty