90° of Clubface Rotation in a relatively short span

[JamesFoote]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Here you go...these are tour pros that are leading edge chipping and still engaging the turf behind the ball.  Tiger included: 

 

And another one: 

 

 

Let me know when you are finally convinced. 

Sorry everyone.

 

I’m just so confused here. You’re claiming that hitting wedge shots without ball first contact, is the most efficient way to control distance? That hitting it 3+ inches behind is preferred?

 

How can you possibly control your spin with a shot like that? I’ve watched Joe Mayo (I use him as it’s the most recent comprehensive measurement videos I’ve seen) prove that spin is created through friction. They hit wedges with no grooves and created huge amounts of spin for relatively short shots. They showed that any form of debris, whether it be water, dirt, grass, instantly kills spin. Measured with high speed cameras, enterprise standard launch monitors, the whole shebang.

 

The moment you touch grass behind the ball, all bets are off for control of spin, which in turn is distance control.

 

Have you got any actual proof of your theory? Like, measured with high speed cameras and launch monitors to debunk the research done by others? Have you seen any of these testing videos?

[cav5]

2 hours ago, JamesFoote said:

Sorry everyone.

 

I’m just so confused here. You’re claiming that hitting wedge shots without ball first contact, is the most efficient way to control distance? That hitting it 3+ inches behind is preferred?

 

How can you possibly control your spin with a shot like that? I’ve watched Joe Mayo (I use him as it’s the most recent comprehensive measurement videos I’ve seen) prove that spin is created through friction. They hit wedges with no grooves and created huge amounts of spin for relatively short shots. They showed that any form of debris, whether it be water, dirt, grass, instantly kills spin. Measured with high speed cameras, enterprise standard launch monitors, the whole shebang.

 

The moment you touch grass behind the ball, all bets are off for control of spin, which in turn is distance control.

 

Have you got any actual proof of your theory? Like, measured with high speed cameras and launch monitors to debunk the research done by others? Have you seen any of these testing videos?

 

I can quite confidently tell you it works. You aren't taking a divot and folding turf before the ball. Engage the turf with the bounce. Think of a spoon in a tub of ice cream. Press the sole of the spoon so it dents the surface and glide it side to side. Instead of leaning an edge and getting ice cream on the spoon (folding a divot). As long as strike gets below equator you're fine.

 

You won't get any ice cream in the spoon. Will there be dirt that is disturbed and jumps near the face. Perhaps some but no meaningful amount. 

 

You need to play with and consider length/tempo/steepness/loft/ball speed/available bounce/yardage to decide how early or late you will engage.

[getitdaily]

27 minutes ago, cav5 said:

 

I can quite confidently tell you it works. You aren't taking a divot and folding turf before the ball. Engage the turf with the bounce. Think of a spoon in a tub of ice cream. Press the sole of the spoon so it dents the surface and glide it side to side. Instead of leaning an edge and getting ice cream on the spoon (folding a divot). As long as strike gets below equator you're fine.

 

You won't get any ice cream in the spoon. Will there be dirt that is disturbed and jumps near the face. Perhaps some but no meaningful amount. 

 

You need to play with and consider length/tempo/steepness/loft/ball speed/available bounce/yardage to decide how early or late you will engage.

It's a shot in the repertoire...that is all. It is a highly variable execution shot for it to be a shot that is the default shot for every chip/pitch.

 

If you're using that shot as the default way to play chips/pitches then I'd love to see up and down %s. It's a shot that requires a wide flange, fairly low bounce (10 or less) with a decent bit of camber. You actually want the leading edge to be close to the ground. Try that shot with a wedge with 12-14 degrees of bounce and you're going to drop kick the leading edge into the back of the ball.

 

That shot requires a bigger swing and more speed at the bottom. The bigger the swing the more variable execution. If you don't retain speed at the bottom then you will dig and hit it fat or bounce the club into the ball and skull it.

 

Its a low % shot that I only use in very specific situations. Almost always go with the shot that requires the smallest swing.

[cav5]

36 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

It's a shot in the repertoire...that is all. It is a highly variable execution shot for it to be a shot that is the default shot for every chip/pitch.

 

If you're using that shot as the default way to play chips/pitches then I'd love to see up and down %s. It's a shot that requires a wide flange, fairly low bounce (10 or less) with a decent bit of camber. You actually want the leading edge to be close to the ground. Try that shot with a wedge with 12-14 degrees of bounce and you're going to drop kick the leading edge into the back of the ball.

 

That shot requires a bigger swing and more speed at the bottom. The bigger the swing the more variable execution. If you don't retain speed at the bottom then you will dig and hit it fat or bounce the club into the ball and skull it.

 

Its a low % shot that I only use in very specific situations. Almost always go with the shot that requires the smallest swing.

 

Yes that would be prevailing thought. Most wedges today actually have more bounce than stated too. My initial message to R2L about 8mos ago was basically my game is trash and struggling to compete on state level (ams midams opens that stuff) as I couldn't wedge anything. I made a huge poy point jump state wise after a round with him and a few hour long conversations.

 

More swing is not a bad thing when you can lower how hard it compresses. A good example for me is hitting opened up 50* at 85yds. Comes out yay high, strike "feels" glancing cause the ball speed drop but just hits and stops.

 

None of this is to say I don't ever chip with a 9 iron LOL.

 

The dropkick risk resides in the fact that you must know where you are starting and going to end up (low point). If you play the shot engaging early and are trying to match that early turf touch to a target line it will spell dropkick trouble. On these shots there is always some out to in path. An inward bend you might correctly say. Any attempt to mitigate this by sending club to the target will dropkick.

Edited January 12 by cav5

[getitdaily]

2 minutes ago, cav5 said:

 

Yes that would be prevailing thought. Most wedges today actually have more bounce than stated too. My initial message to R2L about 8mos ago was basically my game is trash and struggling to compete on state level (ams midams opens that stuff) as I couldn't wedge anything. I went from 50 to top 10 poy points after a round with him and a few hour long conversations.

 

More swing is not a bad thing when you can lower how hard it compresses. A good example for me is hitting opened up 50* at 85yds. Comes out yay high, strike "feels" glancing cause the ball speed drop but just hits and stops.

 

None of this is to say I don't ever chip with a 9 iron LOL.

 

The dropkick risk resides in the fact that you must know where you are starting and going to end up (low point). If you play the shot engaging early and are trying to match that early turf touch to a target line it will spell dropkick trouble. On these shots there is always some out to in path. An inward bend you might correctly say. Any attempt to mitigate this by sending club to the target will dropkick.

If it works for you then great.

 

But that technique is terrible for 95% of golfers.

[MK7Golf21]

10 minutes ago, cav5 said:

 

Yes that would be prevailing thought. Most wedges today actually have more bounce than stated too. My initial message to R2L about 8mos ago was basically my game is trash and struggling to compete on state level (ams midams opens that stuff) as I couldn't wedge anything. I made a huge poy point jump state wise after a round with him and a few hour long conversations.

 

More swing is not a bad thing when you can lower how hard it compresses. A good example for me is hitting opened up 50* at 85yds. Comes out yay high, strike "feels" glancing cause the ball speed drop but just hits and stops.

 

None of this is to say I don't ever chip with a 9 iron LOL.

 

The dropkick risk resides in the fact that you must know where you are starting and going to end up (low point). If you play the shot engaging early and are trying to match that early turf touch to a target line it will spell dropkick trouble. On these shots there is always some out to in path. An inward bend you might correctly say. Any attempt to mitigate this by sending club to the target will dropkick.

 

Have you taken any short game lessons with an actual instructor?

[cav5]

1 minute ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Have you taken any short game lessons with an actual instructor?

 

Many.

[MattC555]

I totally agree with getitdaily.  This is a shot I play chipping over a bunker to a short sided pin.  It is NOT a shot I play from easier locations.  Default is a pitch and run with some bounce using my 50°.  Way more consistent.  See Dan Grieves Release 1.  Flopping it all over the course will result in disaster for most golfers.

[MK7Golf21]

Just now, cav5 said:

 

Many.

 

what were they teaching you that is different from what you learned with R2L?

[cav5]

4 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

I totally agree with getitdaily.  This is a shot I play chipping over a bunker to a short sided pin.  It is NOT a shot I play from easier locations.  Default is a pitch and run with some bounce using my 50°.  Way more consistent.  See Dan Grieves Release 1.  Flopping it all over the course will result in disaster for most golfers.

 

In your own statement you do not agree with him. You're missing something if thats what you're taking out of this. I hit it lower than ever this way.

 

Its easier because you don't understand it. Nothing wrong with a pitch and run 50*. You state using bounce tho and if you understand the definition its use it is before contact meaning you're doing this in some shape or form. Bounce isn't insurance peri-strike. Only pre-strike. You'll suprise yourself tinkering with it I'm sure. 

[MK7Golf21]

I haven't watched the videos or read most the posts but from what I have quickly seen is that cav5 is using a shallow approach, using the bounce before the ball is even ok. This sounds like the shallow method that has been taught around here for awhile now, doesn't shortgamechef teach this as well?

[Golfbeat]

How did we get from the topic of 90 degrees of shaft rotation in the full swing to using the bounce in wedge play? 

[getitdaily]

6 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

I haven't watched the videos or read most the posts but from what I have quickly seen is that cav5 is using a shallow approach, using the bounce before the ball is even ok. This sounds like the shallow method that has been taught around here for awhile now, doesn't shortgamechef teach this as well?

Agree, it's basically elongating the flat spot. However, engaging the turf 6 inches behind the ball is a misnomer. I think what r2l is saying is to brush the top of the grass 6 inches behind the ball. But he's made statements that suggest he really does mean to engage the turf (where grass meets dirt) 6 inches behind the ball. 

 

Like much of what r2l says, there's a level of validity to it but the way it's described and the "always do it this way" perspective completely negates the validity.

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

How did we get from the topic of 90 degrees of shaft rotation in the full swing to using the bounce in wedge play? 

R2L says manzella is wrong about his post. Someone else calls out r2l for absurdity, using wedge bounce as an example. R2L replies with an illiad and odyssey length reply about wedge/bounce and down the rabbit hole we go. 

 

Try as much as you want, it's hard to stay away from the crash scene...

[skim4]

4 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

How did we get from the topic of 90 degrees of shaft rotation in the full swing to using the bounce in wedge play? 

It went from 90 degrees of shaft rotation to dissertations of flop shots on carpet. Golf nuts are golf nuts.

[MattC555]

9 minutes ago, cav5 said:

 

In your own statement you do not agree with him. You're missing something if thats what you're taking out of this. I hit it lower than ever this way.

 

Its easier because you don't understand it. Nothing wrong with a pitch and run 50*. You state using bounce tho and if you understand the definition its use it is before contact meaning you're doing this in some shape or form. Bounce isn't insurance peri-strike. Only pre-strike. You'll suprise yourself tinkering with it I'm sure. 

 

I understand using bounce.  I understand exactly what he is doing and I can replicate it.  30+ years ago I used to practice bounce and release using foam balls(and sometimes real balls if I'm honest) and my mothers couch as a wall to get over.  Did it so much she had to replace the carpet.  There is a reason I carry multiple grinds and bounces.  Bounce factors in to virtually every shot outside of bermuda into grain, firm fairway, death traps.  The other area I am minimizing bounce as much as possible is from some bermuda rough lies where any ground contact will lead to a duff.  I'm also not using bounce on a super fluffy lie.  Doing so would result in the club passing directly under the ball.   

 

Read Dan Grieves book if you want a real education on bounce.  He is far, far more qualified, gives real examples, and can pull them all off with ease.  But even his release system is just a guideline to the varying degrees of release and bounce utilization.  Turf, grain, ground conditions, lie, and more all factor into my shot selection.  There is no one trick pony if you want to have a great short game.     

[MattC555]

5 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Agree, it's basically elongating the flat spot. However, engaging the turf 6 inches behind the ball is a misnomer. I think what r2l is saying is to brush the top of the grass 6 inches behind the ball. But he's made statements that suggest he really does mean to engage the turf (where grass meets dirt) 6 inches behind the ball. 

 

Like much of what r2l says, there's a level of validity to it but the way it's described and the "always do it this way" perspective completely negates the validity.

 

This.

[nitram]

Since it's been decided not to discuss "90° of Clubface Rotation in a relatively short span",

 

https://video.rebelliongolf.com/programs/use_the_bounce?cid=696547&permalink=utb1-introductionmov-788117

[cav5]

7 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Much appreciated for that knowledge and I would like to go live and speak with you anytime you are available.  

 

Speaking somewhat back on topic these models and "new findings" I do not really get or understand the need for. If we need all this complexity do we really understand?

 

A lot of this is simply when you rotate anything things will try to align (physics lol). BUT, in our case, magic golf ball striking wise, those alignments are NOT GOOD.

 

You don't have to do any of this manual nonsense imo if you simply put, do not allow alignment. It's much more important to understand what the club is doing to us than we are doing to the club.

 

Force applied by the hands.

Force applied to the hands.

Give or Manage.

Adding or redirecting.

 

And, gravity definently has a role in the best swings.

 

 

[Avid_but_mediocre]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

R2L says manzella is wrong about his post. Someone else calls out r2l for absurdity, using wedge bounce as an example. R2L replies with an illiad and odyssey length reply about wedge/bounce and down the rabbit hole we go. 

 

Try as much as you want, it's hard to stay away from the crash scene...

 

He's constantly moving the topic and making people chase the conversation to avoid getting pinned down and having to admit he's wrong. He probably doesn't even realize he's doing it, it's just his debate/arguing style that "works" because he's "never proven wrong".

 

I had never encountered this approach until I started dating my wife. It's infuriating!

[Golfbeat]

11 minutes ago, Avid_but_mediocre said:

 

He's constantly moving the topic and making people chase the conversation to avoid getting pinned down and having to admit he's wrong. He probably doesn't even realize he's doing it, it's just his debate/arguing style that "works" because he's "never proven wrong".

 

I had never encountered this approach until I started dating my wife. It's infuriating!

 

Yeah, either wives or politicians.

[geesecougar2]

Re the original topic, any tips on not excessively rolling the face open and getting the club behind you?

[Golfbeat]

4 minutes ago, geesecougar2 said:

Re the original topic, any tips on not excessively rolling the face open and getting the club behind you?

 

Are you talking about the back swing?

 

[KD1]

12 minutes ago, geesecougar2 said:

Re the original topic, any tips on not excessively rolling the face open and getting the club behind you?

 

Well... the original topic is a teaser about face rotation through the impact zone: pros vs social media.

 

Sounds like you're asking about takeaway?

Edited January 12 by KD1

[geesecougar2]

6 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

Are you talking about the back swing?

 

 

Yes on the backswing, given that the face opens 45* before P2. Sometimes I have an issue getting the club behind me by P2 when I apply the face rotation concept, and I end up slicing (I think this is getting the club "stuck")? 

 

4 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Well... the original topic is a teaser about face rotation through the impact zone: pros vs social media.

 

It's also about the backswing before P2, I believe.

[KD1]

3 minutes ago, geesecougar2 said:

It's also about the backswing before P2, I believe.

 

I don't think so but maybe. I'm still hoping op will clarify.

[Ghost of Snead]

2 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

How did we get from the topic of 90 degrees of shaft rotation in the full swing to using the bounce in wedge play? 

 

Same way your "throw or twist" thread turned into the encyclopedia of golf. 

[cav5]

34 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Well... the original topic is a teaser about face rotation through the impact zone: pros vs social media.

 

Sounds like you're asking about takeaway?

 

Yupp golf turning into niches like nutrition and financial advice. Awesome!

[Nels55]

To discuss the topic here are some thoughts:

 

The club is moving on an inclined plane and is not rotating 90 degrees to the path it is actually more like 3 to 12 degrees for pros per AMG.

The flatter the swing plane the more the face will appear to be rotating but it is not really.  Think of a merry-go-round and where the horses are facing as they travel around.

With a super steep plane like a ferris wheel the face would never rotate compared to the target line unless it rotated compared to the wheel which would be equivalent to the shaft rotating in a golf swing.  

A golf swing is in between the merry-go-round and ferris wheel and there is some rotation relative to the body which we can think of as turning the handle but that rotation is less then 90 degrees because the body is turning back and through during the swing like the merry-go-round.  I believe that the handle turning relative to the body is what AMG is talking about and is what they measured on their GEARs system that produced the 3 to 12 degree numbers.

 

LOL that is an attempt to describe my understanding anyway!  

[Righty to Lefty]

7 hours ago, JamesFoote said:

Sorry everyone.

 

I’m just so confused here. You’re claiming that hitting wedge shots without ball first contact, is the most efficient way to control distance? That hitting it 3+ inches behind is preferred?

 

How can you possibly control your spin with a shot like that? I’ve watched Joe Mayo (I use him as it’s the most recent comprehensive measurement videos I’ve seen) prove that spin is created through friction. They hit wedges with no grooves and created huge amounts of spin for relatively short shots. They showed that any form of debris, whether it be water, dirt, grass, instantly kills spin. Measured with high speed cameras, enterprise standard launch monitors, the whole shebang.

 

The moment you touch grass behind the ball, all bets are off for control of spin, which in turn is distance control.

 

Have you got any actual proof of your theory? Like, measured with high speed cameras and launch monitors to debunk the research done by others? Have you seen any of these testing videos?

 

4 hours ago, getitdaily said:

It's a shot in the repertoire...that is all. It is a highly variable execution shot for it to be a shot that is the default shot for every chip/pitch.

 

If you're using that shot as the default way to play chips/pitches then I'd love to see up and down %s. It's a shot that requires a wide flange, fairly low bounce (10 or less) with a decent bit of camber. You actually want the leading edge to be close to the ground. Try that shot with a wedge with 12-14 degrees of bounce and you're going to drop kick the leading edge into the back of the ball.

 

That shot requires a bigger swing and more speed at the bottom. The bigger the swing the more variable execution. If you don't retain speed at the bottom then you will dig and hit it fat or bounce the club into the ball and skull it.

 

Its a low % shot that I only use in very specific situations. Almost always go with the shot that requires the smallest swing.

My C3i wedges have nearly 40 degrees of bounce and I shared a video of them at ground level that you may have overlooked. You actually do not want the leading edge to be close to the ground because that will move the strike higher on the face so it will come out dead and with no spin. Higher bounce encourages the strike to be lower on the face and this actually promotes more spin.  You are mistaken in that you think that engaging the turf behind the ball means you hit it fat on a partial wedge shot when it does not and it is actually very easy to manage.  

 

8 hours ago, JamesFoote said:

Sorry everyone.

 

I’m just so confused here. You’re claiming that hitting wedge shots without ball first contact, is the most efficient way to control distance? That hitting it 3+ inches behind is preferred?

 

How can you possibly control your spin with a shot like that? I’ve watched Joe Mayo (I use him as it’s the most recent comprehensive measurement videos I’ve seen) prove that spin is created through friction. They hit wedges with no grooves and created huge amounts of spin for relatively short shots. They showed that any form of debris, whether it be water, dirt, grass, instantly kills spin. Measured with high speed cameras, enterprise standard launch monitors, the whole shebang.

 

The moment you touch grass behind the ball, all bets are off for control of spin, which in turn is distance control.

 

Have you got any actual proof of your theory? Like, measured with high speed cameras and launch monitors to debunk the research done by others? Have you seen any of these testing videos?

The shots actually spin more with the bounce engaged because it encourages the strike to be lower on the face and it is very easy to control actually.  The bounce keeps the leading edge from entering the turf so in essence partial wedge shots are executed very similar to a bunker shot. You responded to the video that I posted of tour pros engaging the turf prior the ball in super slo motion so I'm not sure what other proof you are looking for.  There are also videos of me hitting the shots in slo mo also. Your assertion that distance control is made more difficult is incorrect and I assure you trying leading edge chip hitting ball first is orders of magnitude more difficult.  I a going to start a use bounce thread here in a moment to get this conversation out of this thread goin forward.