90° of Clubface Rotation in a relatively short span

[CB67]

 

 

[virtuoso]

3 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

 

somewhere in transition

So what I'm getting from you Teddy, is that somewhere near the top, if you get the arms set up correctly, all you have to do is turn and swing freely. Is that correct?

[CB67]

And here is the full Cogorno - Malaska video 

 

 

[teddyironboy]

1 minute ago, virtuoso said:

So what I'm getting from you Teddy, is that somewhere near the top, if you get the arms set up correctly, all you have to do is turn and swing freely. Is that correct?

 

yes

[TLUBulldogGolf]

14 minutes ago, CB67 said:

 

IMG_6344.mov 48.54 MB · 0 downloads  

 

 

He sort of contradicts himself here as his right wrist isn't doing what he says at the start of the right arm and wrist video. 

Edited January 4 by TLUBulldogGolf

[glk]

 

[MPStrat]

20 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

And we've already discussed how a teacher's prescribed "feel" descriptions can sound goofy if taken out of context.

The big downside to online golf instruction is that it’s pretty much all out of context.
 

But I have issues when someone tries to invent or market a type of golf swing like Malaska has done lately with a very strong right hand grip and flexion to extension slap release. No one on tour does that. Certainly not DJ or Brooks. 
 

He’s not alone by any means

Edited January 4 by MPStrat

[virtuoso]

5 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

He sort of contradicts himself here as his right wrist isn't doing what he says at the start of right arm and wrist video. 

Once again, I have no issue with Malaska as a teacher. I like him. But even in his own swing you will see toe up at P6 and toe up at P8. There is definitely more forearm rotation needed in a good swing than he is suggesting in those videos. However, for some students (primarily single digit guys who start the ball right and sling hook it) the advice is probably really helpful.

[PracticeSwinger]

25 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Like this?

 

 

I'm not understanding this part.

 

I'm starting to think maybe there's a disconnect between what square to the arc means to different people?

 

Even more than that (especially after impact); can you imagine... anything on 'social media' related to minimizing the rate of closure / 'stable face'... have a 'shut' face (i.e. already Face matching Path by P6ish) and just holding it, body pivot... while great players (see amg video on page1) have it going from 10* open (FtP) to 10* closed in the hitting zone... it's my understanding that no studies have shown that lesser RoC equals better ball striking - and thus, trying to 'have it and hold it square to the arc' might be detrimental to some

[virtuoso]

13 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The big downside to online golf instruction is that it’s pretty much all out of context.
 

But I have issues is when someone tries to invent or market a type of golf swing like Malaska has done lately with a very strong right hand grip and flexion to extension slap release. No one on tour does that. Certainly not DJ or Brooks. 

Oh, I haven't followed him enough then I guess. Has he gone all in on a "packaged product" swing type?

 

He needs to get rid of all the toe-up evidence:

[virtuoso]

25 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

 

yes

Very good, carry on sir.

[MonteScheinblum]

I want a pivot driven, non timing based swing with a stable club face and passive hands.

[PracticeSwinger]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I want a pivot driven, non timing based swing with a stable club face and passive hands.

Let me get you the coordinates to a guy at Superstition Mountain to help you with that!

[Golfbeat]

Supination, baby!

[Righty to Lefty]

10 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

 

it has to be target line. pros keep the face pretty close to square to arc. but not exact.

 

the 3 golfers measured close the clubface 11*, 11* and 4* in that span (when club is 45* relative to the target line until impact).

 

The amount of time that the club face is presented square to the swing arc will vary depending on the golfer and their swing motion, but the club face is only presented square to the target line at one point and the ball must be present at that location: 

 

Model representation of square to the arc. Just imagine this diagram on a tilted plane like a swing circle and a shot struck at any of these locations would fly straight even though in a real swing the ball could only be struck at the lower section of the diagram and the amount of time the club face is square to the arc will depend on the golfer's swing motion.  

 

 

Model representation of square to the arc AND target line for a ball being hit off the ground. The pencil represents the club face at impact and the pencil mark on the trash can lid denotes low point of the swing arc. 

 

Model representation of square to the arc AND target line for a ball being hit off a tee. The pencil represents the club face at impact and the pencil mark on the trash can lid denotes low point of the swing arc. 

 

Any shot struck with a club face square to the swing arc will fly straight in all cases, maybe not at the desired target line, but nevertheless straight somewhere! 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Any shot struck with a club face square to the swing arc will fly straight in all cases, maybe not at the desired target line, but nevertheless straight somewhere! 

I'll be the first one to mention that is not correct when gear effect occurs.  Toe or heel shots off of a driver for instance.

[MPStrat]

5 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Oh, I haven't followed him enough then I guess. Has he gone all in on a "packaged product" swing type?

 

He needs to get rid of all the toe-up evidence:

6-7 years ago he went all in on what is best known as “the malaska move” as a one size fits all swing method. This was essentially, from the top of the swing, working the handle straight down while tipping the clubhead outside the hands. He explained that this was necessary because the forces in the swing would cause the clubhead to fall behind too much, and that golfers should make an effort to tip out the shaft manually to offset this force. As you could imagine some liked it, some hated it. He was basically teaching his own feel. I agree with some of what he says in theory, but the consensus among teachers and posters was that it is a good feel for some, but the majority of ams probably shouldn’t be trying to intentionally tip the clubhead outside their hands from the top of the swing. 
 

His latest product is this strong right hand, slap release for amateurs to supposedly eliminate the need for clubface rotation. Similarly with this one, I think he has good intentions but is again teaching his own feel. 

[Righty to Lefty]

52 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I'll be the first one to mention that is not correct when gear effect occurs.  Toe or heel shots off of a driver for instance.

Are you kidding me....you have got to be kidding me..smh?  The result is invalid if you strike the shot off the center of gravity and I figured at this point that didn't need to be mentioned as I am often criticized for being too "wordy." Strike/Leverage is the very first check point on any shot that you ever hit and you know immediately if you struck the shot off center and at that point all bets are off because the shot isn't going to go as you predicted. The toe and heel are pointing right and left of the CoG respectively due to bulge and roll thus they are not traveling square to the arc by design because they are there for shot correction.  

[Righty to Lefty]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

6-7 years ago he went all in on what is best known as “the malaska move” as a one size fits all swing method. This was essentially, from the top of the swing, working the handle straight down while tipping the clubhead outside the hands. He explained that this was necessary because the forces in the swing would cause the clubhead to fall behind too much, and that golfers should make an effort to tip out the shaft manually to offset this force. As you could imagine some liked it, some hated it. He was basically teaching his own feel. I agree with some of what he says in theory, but the consensus among teachers and posters was that it is a good feel for some, but the majority of ams probably shouldn’t be trying to intentionally tip the clubhead outside their hands from the top of the swing. 
 

His latest product is this strong right hand, slap release for amateurs to supposedly eliminate the need for clubface rotation. Similarly with this one, I think he has good intentions but is again teaching his own feel. 

The big problem that I saw that the Malaska move is that he never said that you have to wait until the shaft is at least to parallel to the ground on the downswing because the club is easily manipulated if you try to do what he suggests from the top of the backswing because it isn't under any force.  That being said if you are patient and let the club/ arms be passive until at least shaft parallel on the downswing it becomes very difficult to come over the top because once the club is under enough force it is going where it wants to go and becomes much less susceptible to manipulation.  This is my interpretation of the Malaska move in a video that I made a couple years ago but I made sure to include that the club has to fall to at least shaft parallel on the downswing and maybe further if you are very fast twitch: 

 

 

 I think the info Malaska was giving was pretty good, I just think it was incomplete and those missing details were key. Am I making sense? R to L

[GolfTurkey]

23 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Are you kidding me....you have got to be kidding me..smh?  The result is invalid if you strike the shot off the center of gravity and I figured at this point that didn't need to be mentioned as I am often criticized for being too "wordy." Strike/Leverage is the very first check point on any shot that you ever hit and you know immediately if you struck the shot off center and at that point all bets are off because the shot isn't going to go as you predicted. The toe and heel are pointing right and left of the CoG respectively due to bulge and roll thus they are not traveling square to the arc by design because they are there for shot correction.  

 

You wrote a whole lot of words plus some strange (and inaccurate) diagram of a planet orbiting the sun, when all you needed to add is the word "centered" to prevent that response.

 

"Any shot struck..." ->"any centered shot struck..."

 

[Nels55]

31 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Are you kidding me....you have got to be kidding me..smh?  The result is invalid if you strike the shot off the center of gravity and I figured at this point that didn't need to be mentioned as I am often criticized for being too "wordy." Strike/Leverage is the very first check point on any shot that you ever hit and you know immediately if you struck the shot off center and at that point all bets are off because the shot isn't going to go as you predicted. The toe and heel are pointing right and left of the CoG respectively due to bulge and roll thus they are not traveling square to the arc by design because they are there for shot correction.  

Yeah, pretty much kidding but I knew that someone would mention it so I did. 

[Righty to Lefty]

3 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

You wrote a whole lot of words plus some strange (and inaccurate) diagram of a planet orbiting the sun, when all you needed to add is the word "centered" to prevent that response.

 

"Any shot struck..." ->"any centered shot struck..."

 

Oh you mean the diagram that came from a physics website that exactly mirrors the force that athlete puts on the golf club if you just imagine it on a tilted plane?   I assure you that it is correct and I have been using it for years. When the club is under force it is trying to pull away from you in the exact same manner. Would you like the same thing shown with hula hoops and lie angle tools? 

 

Well here you go: 

 

Would you like the same thing explained by a different person...well here you go: 

 

[RBARG]

Square to the arc through the whole

swing is baloney.

 

Feels like crap.

Edited January 5 by RBARG

[GolfTurkey]

7 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Oh you mean the diagram that came from a physics website that exactly mirrors the force that athlete puts on the golf club if you just imagine it on a tilted plane?   I assure you that it is correct and I have been using it for years. When the club is under force it is trying to pull away from you in the exact same manner. Would you like the same thing shown with hula hoops and lie angle tools? 

 

Well here you go: 

 

Would you like the same thing explained by a different person...well here you go: 

 

 

Just for starters, planetal orbits are elliptical (and not centered around the center of the sun).

 

More importantly I think very few minds would go to planetal orbits when describing the golf swing, but I know how debating anything with you goes so I'm out...

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

6-7 years ago he went all in on what is best known as “the malaska move” as a one size fits all swing method. This was essentially, from the top of the swing, working the handle straight down while tipping the clubhead outside the hands. He explained that this was necessary because the forces in the swing would cause the clubhead to fall behind too much, and that golfers should make an effort to tip out the shaft manually to offset this force. As you could imagine some liked it, some hated it. He was basically teaching his own feel. I agree with some of what he says in theory, but the consensus among teachers and posters was that it is a good feel for some, but the majority of ams probably shouldn’t be trying to intentionally tip the clubhead outside their hands from the top of the swing. 
 

His latest product is this strong right hand, slap release for amateurs to supposedly eliminate the need for clubface rotation. Similarly with this one, I think he has good intentions but is again teaching his own feel. 

Ah gotcha, the limited stuff I had seen seemed fine but didn't know the origin stories.

[Righty to Lefty]

19 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Just for starters, planetal orbits are elliptical (and not centered around the center of the sun).

 

More importantly I think very few minds would go to planetal orbits when describing the golf swing, but I know how debating anything with you goes so I'm out...

So you just glossed over the part where I said " just imagine" this is a swing circle on a tilted plane and the main reason why I use that one is because it shows the direction of the force at multiple points along the circle.  This video is the EXACT same concept and it is literally fact as proven through physics so whether you want to be in or out is irrelevant. The exact same force vector he demonstrates is shown on the planet diagram  that I posted and shows where the momentum of the swing should be sent in order hit shots with leverage so we really are not debating anything because it is fact about the math that governs impact.  

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

36 minutes ago, RBARG said:

Square to the arc through the whole

swing is baloney.

 

Feels like crap.

I just tried to do it a moment ago in my living room and can confirm that it feels horrible!! 

[CasualLie]

Some threads just need this...

 

 

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

5 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

Some threads just need this...

 

 

 

 

I agree but...but hit balls with a plan in mind.  I guarantee that Tiger hits ball with a plan. 

[Brian Manzella]

The ball DOES NOT start straight off on a tangent to the arc all the time. If fact, it doesn't MOST of the time. 100 things could throw that off.

 

For one the radius is changing all over the place. The arc is NOT circular.

 

The ball HAS NO IDEA the club is being swung on any arc.

 

ETC.

For D-Plane fans: 

 

And btw, this subject makes folks sound coo-coo for CoCo Puffs for some reason.