Anyone else think that hitting it OB or lost balls is too penalizing?

[bluedot]

43 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

That's not a "fundamental principle" of the Rules of Golf.

 

Aside from situations that can be constructed where you can make a choice, you also have many situations where options effectively give you a choice.  

 

There are a few things being said in haste (been there many times, lol) that folks that know the Rules might reconsider on reflection.

 

On another note, put me down for never supporting E-5 - it was silly and populist, IMO, and a guaranteed lie in the fairway is BS no matter how you slice it, BUT where allowed there are situations where I've availed myself of the option.  It was always never going to be good enough for the "OB is so penalizing, OMG two strokes added to my card" crowd anyway and the pace of play "benefits" are negligible, if at all.

Choosing among options, such as how to proceed if your ball is in a penalty area, is part of the Rules.  But you do NOT get to choose which ball to play if you have hit a provisional ball and then find the original ball.   
 

Likewise, if you drop a ball and then find your original ball in OR out of a penalty area, you do not get to choose which ball to play; the dropped ball is in play.  And, of course, there is not a provisional ball option with such a drop, which is the idea I was responding to.

 

If you can tell me a situation in golf where a player gets to choose between two balls as to which one he will play, I’d love to read that.  The closest thing would be an unresolved Rules question in stroke play that leads the player to play two balls out after declaring which ball he intends to count if allowed, but that’s NOT “choosing”, since the player will have to count the score with the ball played under the Rules.(Fwiw, that option is only available in stroke play; you can’t play a second ball in match play.)

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, bluedot said:

Choosing among options, such as how to proceed if your ball is in a penalty area, is part of the Rules.  But you do NOT get to choose which ball to play if you have hit a provisional ball and then find the original ball.   
 

Likewise, if you drop a ball and then find your original ball in OR out of a penalty area, you do not get to choose which ball to play; the dropped ball is in play.  And, of course, there is not a provisional ball option with such a drop, which is the idea I was responding to.

 

If you can tell me a situation in golf where a player gets to choose between two balls as to which one he will play, I’d love to read that.  The closest thing would be an unresolved Rules question in stroke play that leads the player to play two balls out after declaring which ball he intends to count if allowed, but that’s NOT “choosing”, since the player will have to count the score with the ball played under the Rules.(Fwiw, that option is only available in stroke play; you can’t play a second ball in match play.)

A couple examples do not demonstrate that what you suggested is a "fundamental principle" of the Rules of Golf.

 

That may be how you view them and that's fine, but study the history and evolution of the Rules of Golf and the suggestion that "you don't get to choose what ball to play" isn't part of the bedrock.  

 

[bluedot]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

A couple examples do not demonstrate that what you suggested is a "fundamental principle" of the Rules of Golf.

 

That may be how you view them and that's fine, but study the history and evolution of the Rules of Golf and the suggestion that "you don't get to choose what ball to play" isn't part of the bedrock.  

 

I’ll stand by that statement.  There is NEVER a situation in golf if you are playing fully under the Rules where you get to choose which of two balls to play.  One of the two is out of play, period.  And it’s been that way forever, so yeah, that’s a fundamental principle of the Rules.

[RCGA]

11 minutes ago, bluedot said:

 

If you can tell me a situation in golf where a player gets to choose between two balls as to which one he will play, I’d love to read that.  The closest thing would be an unresolved Rules question in stroke play that leads the player to play two balls out after declaring which ball he intends to count if allowed, but that’s NOT “choosing”, since the player will have to count the score with the ball played under the Rules.(Fwiw, that option is only available in stroke play; you can’t play a second ball in match play.)

 

First ball may be OB so I hit a second. 

 

In searching for the first ball, I see a ball that may be mine, but the lie/situation is awful and I'd be better off just playing my second ball. 

 

Am I under any obligation to identify ball one? 

Edited January 17 by RCGA

[Hawkeye77]

5 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

First ball may be OB so I hit a second. 

 

In searching for the first ball, I see a ball that may be mine, but the lie/situation is awful and I'd be better off just playing my second ball. 

 

Am I under any obligation to identify ball one? 

Just in general, assuming you are allowed to play a provisional ball and have done so, you can make the choice to proceed to hit it from beyond the point where the original ball was likely to be (without even getting into the issue of whether you can see the original).  

 

Taking a penalty drop when you have the option of do so vs. playing the original ball is still choosing which of two balls/shots to play as well.

 

Sure, if a fundamental principle of the Rules is we aren't out playing a scramble? Yes and no - doubt it was a even a consideration to start with and hasn't been for centuries.

 

 

[bluedot]

21 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

First ball may be OB so I hit a second. 

 

In searching for the first ball, I see a ball that may be mine, but the lie/situation is awful and I'd be better off just playing my second ball. 

 

Am I under any obligation to identify ball one? 

I believe that you are required to identify that ball once it is found.  You can choose not to search, but once you do, you have to live with the results.

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Aiming further from the OB line (or forest that's considered lost ball) oftentimes means aiming closer to the adjacent fairway. There's a player safety component that never gets addressed. 

 

They can hit it there whether there's OB there or not. That's more of a course setup issue than an issue exacerbated by the Rules. Often OB is… someone's house, with kids playing in the yard or something, and you are trying to compare that to aiming another fairway over where there are golfers aware of the fact that they're on a golf course? C'mon.

 

22 minutes ago, bluedot said:

Choosing among options, such as how to proceed if your ball is in a penalty area, is part of the Rules.

 

That's really different than saying it's a "fundamental principle" of the game, of which Tufts wrote about in the booklet (I still wish they'd put out a revision for the post-2019 rules).

 

11 minutes ago, bluedot said:

There is NEVER a situation in golf if you are playing fully under the Rules where you get to choose which of two balls to play. One of the two is out of play, period. And it’s been that way forever, so yeah, that’s a fundamental principle of the Rules.

 

Player hits two balls into the same area, but can't identify which was the original and which is the provisional. Player gets to choose which one to play (counting it as the provisional). There are also things rules officials call "Choosies" where a player effectively has a choice between playing a ball in two locations.

[RCGA]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

They can hit it there whether there's OB there or not. That's more of a course setup issue than an issue exacerbated by the Rules. Often OB is… someone's house, with kids playing in the yard or something, and you are trying to compare that to aiming another fairway over where there are golfers aware of the fact that they're on a golf course? C'mon.

 

 

Driving range is OB

Some holes have internal OB

Forest/tress can be lost ball 

 

Not every course is bordered by houses 

[bluedot]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Just in general, assuming you are allowed to play a provisional ball and have done so, you can make the choice to proceed to hit it from beyond the point where the original ball was likely to be (without even getting into the issue of whether you can see the original).  

 

Taking a penalty drop when you have the option of do so vs. playing the original ball is still choosing which of two balls/shots to play as well.

 

Sure, if a fundamental principle of the Rules is we aren't out playing a scramble? Yes and no - doubt it was a even a consideration to start with and hasn't been for centuries.

 

 

Choosing not to search for an original ball, and playing the provisional under a stroke and distance penalty is NOT choosing which ball to play. You are deeming the original to be lost or OB when you choose not to search.  If you DO search for the original and find it inbounds, the provisional can’t be played.  Even if the original is unplayable, you have to proceed under the unplayable options; you still can’t play the provisional. 
 

Fwiw, you ALWAYS have the option of taking a penalty drop; you may judge ANY situation anywhere on the golf course to be an unplayable lie and take relief with a penalty.  That is NOT choosing which shot or ball to play; I know you understand this.  You’re still playing ONLY your original ball.

 

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

They can hit it there whether there's OB there or not. That's more of a course setup issue than an issue exacerbated by the Rules. Often OB is… someone's house, with kids playing in the yard or something, and you are trying to compare that to aiming another fairway over where there are golfers aware of the fact that they're on a golf course? C'mon.

 

 

That's really different than saying it's a "fundamental principle" of the game, of which Tufts wrote about in the booklet (I still wish they'd put out a revision for the post-2019 rules).

 

 

Player hits two balls into the same area, but can't identify which was the original and which is the provisional. Player gets to choose which one to play (counting it as the provisional). There are also things rules officials call "Choosies" where a player effectively has a choice between playing a ball in two locations.

You’ll have to give me an example of “Choosies”; I’ve never heard of it.

 

As to not being able to identify which is the original and which is the provisional, the key is that the player MUST consider the ball he plays to be the provisional, meaning that he has incurred a stroke and distance penalty, even though one of those two balls IS the original ball.  So yes, he is “choosing” which ball to play in a very limited sense, but the Rules dictate how he is to count that; in that respect, he has no choice.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Driving range is OB

Some holes have internal OB

Forest/tress can be lost ball 

 

Not every course is bordered by houses 

 

You just made up a scenario, so I replied in a similar fashion. We can sit here all day and name scenarios; that's not the point.

 

If OB is a more severe penalty, aim away from it slightly. Or… get better at golf. Or, choose a shorter club that can't reach the OB. Trying to claim that we shouldn't have stroke-and-distance for leaving the golf course by making a "player safety" claim is weak sauce.

 

7 minutes ago, bluedot said:

You are deeming the original to be lost or OB when you choose not to search.

 

You can't deem a ball to be lost.

 

7 minutes ago, bluedot said:

Fwiw, you ALWAYS have the option of taking a penalty drop; you may judge ANY situation anywhere on the golf course to be an unplayable lie and take relief with a penalty.

 

You can't say a ball in a penalty area is "unplayable."

 

7 minutes ago, bluedot said:

You’ll have to give me an example of “Choosies”; I’ve never heard of it.

 

Might I suggest more learning and less making statements and proclamations? I'm a rules official, and even here, there are probably 10 or 20 or more rules officials with more experience than me. You're unaware of a few things, make incorrect statements about what are "fundamental principles," and would do well to perhaps learn more and proclaim less.

 

Just trying to help.

 

7 minutes ago, bluedot said:

As to not being able to identify which is the original and which is the provisional, the key is that the player MUST consider the ball he plays to be the provisional

 

He still gets to choose which ball to play, and regardless of the ball he plays, he lies the same, so there's no additional penalty to him. His penalty is for failing to mark his ball*. Heck, he could hit six provisionals, and find all seven balls in the same area, and have seven balls to choose from, all lying the same.

 

* Effectively, the penalty is for not being able to identify which ball was which.

Edited January 17 by iacas
added *

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

That's not a "fundamental principle" of the Rules of Golf.

 

I'd phrase it differently.  The Rules generally do not allow you to choose between known outcomes, or between a known outcome and other choices.  There are a small number of exceptions, but that's a pretty consistent principle in the Rules.

 

1 hour ago, RCGA said:

 

Aiming further from the OB line (or forest that's considered lost ball) oftentimes means aiming closer to the adjacent fairway. There's a player safety component that never gets addressed. 

The Rules can't always consider player safety.  You can wait for players to leave the area, scout ahead to make sure its clear, etc.

 

 

53 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

First ball may be OB so I hit a second. 

 

In searching for the first ball, I see a ball that may be mine, but the lie/situation is awful and I'd be better off just playing my second ball. 

 

Am I under any obligation to identify ball one? 

From 18.2a(1):

"If a ball is found in that time but it is uncertain whether it is the player’s ball:

The player must promptly attempt to identify the ball"

 

15 minutes ago, bluedot said:

You’ll have to give me an example of “Choosies”; I’ve never heard of it.

In every Rules Workshop I've attended, the term "choosies" is discussed, and the rules generally discourage "choosies."  And yes, that's exactly the term used by even the most knowledgeable Rules people.  One example is the concept of "declaring the first ball lost" when a Provisional is in play.  The Rules don't permit that, you don't get to "choose" the Provisional simply because you think the Original might be in a bad spot.  You don't have to look for the Original, but if someone finds a ball that could be the Original, and its still not been made a Wrong Ball under the rules, you have to identify it, and play it if its yours.  Another example, you have KVC your ball is in a Penalty Area, you CHOOSE to take a legitimate drop, and go ahead with the drop, and then find your ball in a different location.  You're required to correct the Relief Area (no choice there), and you can no longer CHOOSE to play the ball as it lies.  

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RCGA said:

 

Aiming further from the OB line (or forest that's considered lost ball) oftentimes means aiming closer to the adjacent fairway. There's a player safety component that never gets addressed. 

If a person hits a 30 yard slice off every tee and they aim down the left side where there is an adjacent fairway the number of times they will actually not hit the slice and end up in the adjacent fairway is small.

 

It’s not more of a risk at any point during the round where there is an adjacent fairway on the right and they aim down the middle of their own fairway and slice it into the adjacent fairway on the right.

 

[bluedot]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You just made up a scenario, so I replied in a similar fashion. We can sit here all day and name scenarios; that's not the point.

 

If OB is a more severe penalty, aim away from it slightly. Or… get better at golf. Or, choose a shorter club that can't reach the OB. Trying to claim that we shouldn't have stroke-and-distance for leaving the golf course by making a "player safety" claim is weak sauce.

 

 

You can't deem a ball to be lost.

 

 

You can't say a ball in a penalty area is "unplayable."

 

 

Might I suggest more learning and less making statements and proclamations? I'm a rules official, and even here, there are probably 10 or 20 or more rules officials with more experience than me. You're unaware of a few things, make incorrect statements about what are "fundamental principles," and would do well to perhaps learn more and proclaim less.

 

Just trying to help.

 

 

He still gets to choose which ball to play, and regardless of the ball he plays, he lies the same, so there's no additional penalty to him. His penalty is for failing to mark his ball*. Heck, he could hit six provisionals, and find all seven balls in the same area, and have seven balls to choose from, all lying the same.

 

* Effectively, the penalty is for not being able to identify which ball was which.

Yes, he could “choose” among those 7 balls as to which he will play his 15th shot, assuming all were hit from the tee.  The Rules do not allow him to “choose” which ball was his original ball.  Or his second. Or his third.  Etc…

[iacas]

1 minute ago, bluedot said:

Yes, he could “choose” among those 7 balls as to which he will play his 15th shot, assuming all were hit from the tee.  The Rules do not allow him to “choose” which ball was his original ball.  Or his second. Or his third.  Etc…

 

That's not what you said, though:

 

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

I’ll stand by that statement.  There is NEVER a situation in golf if you are playing fully under the Rules where you get to choose which of two balls to play.  One of the two is out of play, period.  And it’s been that way forever, so yeah, that’s a fundamental principle of the Rules.

 

The player in that situation gets to choose between seven balls, and they all have the same status, lie the same number, etc.

 

As soon as he chooses (by hitting one or picking up the others), the others are out of play, but that's after he's been afforded the choice you say NEVER happens.

[bluedot]

32 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I'd phrase it differently.  The Rules generally do not allow you to choose between known outcomes, or between a known outcome and other choices.  There are a small number of exceptions, but that's a pretty consistent principle in the Rules.

 

The Rules can't always consider player safety.  You can wait for players to leave the area, scout ahead to make sure its clear, etc.

 

 

From 18.2a(1):

"If a ball is found in that time but it is uncertain whether it is the player’s ball:

The player must promptly attempt to identify the ball"

 

In every Rules Workshop I've attended, the term "choosies" is discussed, and the rules generally discourage "choosies."  And yes, that's exactly the term used by even the most knowledgeable Rules people.  One example is the concept of "declaring the first ball lost" when a Provisional is in play.  The Rules don't permit that, you don't get to "choose" the Provisional simply because you think the Original might be in a bad spot.  You don't have to look for the Original, but if someone finds a ball that could be the Original, and its still not been made a Wrong Ball under the rules, you have to identify it, and play it if its yours.  Another example, you have KVC your ball is in a Penalty Area, you CHOOSE to take a legitimate drop, and go ahead with the drop, and then find your ball in a different location.  You're required to correct the Relief Area (no choice there), and you can no longer CHOOSE to play the ball as it lies.  

Thank you for this.  While I’m not familiar with the term “choosies”, I’ve given the same two examples several times during the thread as situations where the player does NOT get to choose between two balls. Choosing not to look for a ball isn’t, of course, the same thing as choosing not to play it if it is found, and there is NO choice in the case of a drop and then finding the original ball outside a penalty area, or inside but playable for that matter.

[bluedot]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

That's not what you said, though:

 

 

The player in that situation gets to choose between seven balls, and they all have the same status, lie the same number, etc.

 

As soon as he chooses (by hitting one or picking up the others), the others are out of play, but that's after he's been afforded the choice you say NEVER happens.

Ok.

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, bluedot said:

Thank you for this.  While I’m not familiar with the term “choosies”, I’ve given the same two examples several times during the thread as situations where the player does NOT get to choose between two balls. Choosing not to look for a ball isn’t, of course, the same thing as choosing not to play it if it is found, and there is NO choice in the case of a drop and then finding the original ball outside a penalty area, or inside but playable for that matter.

I'll admit, I laughed the first time that an workshop instructor used the word "choosies", but its happened often enough for me to accept it as a real term among rules people.

[rzitup]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

 

As Dave said, it is that simple.

 

And the average handicap is like 14, but that's neither here nor there.

 

 

It is, by definition:

 

 

It's just not used in higher level competitions (nor should it be, I'd argue). Keep your ball on the course.

 

The averages mens handicap is 14.  Women play golf also.  

 

It is NOT a general rule used daily, it has to be implemented as a local rule.  But you knew the difference anyway.

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

I'd phrase it differently.  The Rules generally do not allow you to choose between known outcomes, or between a known outcome and other choices.  There are a small number of exceptions, but that's a pretty consistent principle in the Rules.

 

Which is a far cry from "NEVER" (as you know) and definitely more to the point.  Without getting all Clinton about it, I think we get into what "outcomes" means with that description.  I don't know if I choose to declare a ball unplayable what the outcome of that shot would have been or the shot from where the ball is after taking relief, but I know that I have two choices where I am weighing outcomes, and frankly a choice between two shots/balls.  

 

In every Rules Workshop I've attended, the term "choosies" is discussed, and the rules generally discourage "choosies."  And yes, that's exactly the term used by even the most knowledgeable Rules people.  One example is the concept of "declaring the first ball lost" when a Provisional is in play.  The Rules don't permit that, you don't get to "choose" the Provisional simply because you think the Original might be in a bad spot.  You don't have to look for the Original, but if someone finds a ball that could be the Original, and its still not been made a Wrong Ball under the rules, you have to identify it, and play it if its yours.  

But . . . you can actually choose the provisional by hitting a second shot with the provisional beyond where the original may have likely been (not looking up the exact phrasing).  By operation of the Rules you are now playing the provisional, but it was still a strategic choice between the two balls.  Not disagreeing with you at all in general, and in general I agree, but there are examples of "choosies" (lol, love it).  

 

Edited January 17 by Hawkeye77

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

I'll admit, I laughed the first time that an workshop instructor used the word "choosies", but its happened often enough for me to accept it as a real term among rules people.

 

I've never heard of the term before this thread. Not in English, nor any similar term in any other language.

[Hawkeye77]

The R&A introduction to the Rules typically gets it right with the fewest words:

 

"The essence of the Rules of Golf is simple...play the course as you find it and play the ball as it lies. However, given golf is played all over the world where the climate, topography and course conditions vary greatly, there are a myriad of situations that can happen when playing golf and players need to know how to deal with those."

 

Everything has pretty much flowed from that first sentence as all sorts of situations have arisen and equipment has changed over time.  Those are "the" historical and foundational principles of the Rules.

 

 
 

[Hawkeye77]

5 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

I've never heard of the term before this thread. Not in English, nor any similar term in any other language.

 

Sounds like something that originated at closing time in a British pub - I'm imagining Michael Caine overacting the line in a movie (but not suggesting anything gender specific about its use) that probably started innocently as part of a nursery game of cricket amongst children whose parents lived in the same castle but couldn't be bothered to see them all day.

Edited January 17 by Hawkeye77

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, rzitup said:

It is NOT a general rule used daily, it has to be implemented as a local rule.  But you knew the difference anyway.

 

But… that's where it's most in effect. It's not in effect in many tournaments, but in daily play, you can put it into play and thus it is a Rule of Golf in casual, daily play.

 

And yes, women do play golf, I apologize. Men's handicaps are around 14.4 or so, and have been improving for 30 years. Gut reaction as an instructor first to react to what felt adjacent to the "golfers aren't getting any better!" (false) cries.

 

P.S. Glad I could introduce so many to the term "Choosies." IIRC there are three. They're rare, as you can imagine. BTW it always sounded to me like an award. "I'd like to thank the Academy for giving me this Choosie, the other rules officials and golfers certainly deserved it at least as much as I did. I'd like to think my agent Mark Steinberg, my first USGA rules official trainer David Fay… and…"

 

Edited January 17 by iacas
Added postscript

[Poor Mans Ty Webb]

4 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

Aiming further from the OB line (or forest that's considered lost ball) oftentimes means aiming closer to the adjacent fairway. There's a player safety component that never gets addressed. 

 

This is a fair point that I think we could consider addressing by developing some sort of system for golfers to alert others on the course than an errant shot may be heading their way.  But I'm not exactly sure how that system might look in practice.  It could be too big of a challenge for the average golfer to manage and remember during play.

[Newby]

4 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

Aiming further from the OB line (or forest that's considered lost ball) oftentimes means aiming closer to the adjacent fairway. There's a player safety component that never gets addressed. 

Why not take a shorter club so that it won't reach the OB?

[ChaosTheory]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Player hits two balls into the same area, but can't identify which was the original and which is the provisional. Player gets to choose which one to play (counting it as the provisional).

 

That is interesting.  Did not know that. 

[davep043]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Which is a far cry from "NEVER" (as you know) and definitely more to the point.  Without getting all Clinton about it, I think we get into what "outcomes" means with that description.  I don't know if I choose to declare a ball unplayable what the outcome of that shot would have been or the shot from where the ball is after taking relief, but I know that I have two choices where I am weighing outcomes, and frankly a choice between two shots/balls.  

When you make your choice of relief method for Unplayable, you don't know where your next shot would end up, no matter which option you choose.  If you were allowed to play a Provisional Ball as an option for Unplayable, you'd be choosing between a "known outcome", the location of the Provisional, and an "unknown outcome", whatever might happen with either Lateral or BOTL Relief.  

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

When you make your choice of relief method for Unplayable, you don't know where your next shot would end up, no matter which option you choose.  If you were allowed to play a Provisional Ball as an option for Unplayable, you'd be choosing between a "known outcome", the location of the Provisional, and an "unknown outcome", whatever might happen with either Lateral or BOTL Relief.  

I wasn't talking about a provisional ball as an option for an unplayable, just weighing the location of the ball I would declare unplayable vs. the location of where the ball would be after taking relief, but no big deal - I think the other bit may have entered in there somehow - one of the problems (even when we are having a good discussion, which is always the case when you are involved) with typing and so forth is knowing if we were sitting on the porch overlooking an 18th green with an appropriate beverage things would be easier to convey or pick up on or "get" in conversation.  Sometimes too many words needed to cover too many bases when having to write things out vs. an easy conversation!

[Halebopp]

12 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I wasn't talking about a provisional ball as an option for an unplayable, just weighing the location of the ball I would declare unplayable vs. the location of where the ball would be after taking relief, but no big deal - I think the other bit may have entered in there somehow - one of the problems (even when we are having a good discussion, which is always the case when you are involved) with typing and so forth is knowing if we were sitting on the porch overlooking an 18th green with an appropriate beverage things would be easier to convey or pick up on or "get" in conversation.  Sometimes too many words needed to cover too many bases when having to write things out vs. an easy conversation!

 

Are you suggesting that the possible relief options break the idea of not getting to choose from different, known outcomes?

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

Are you suggesting that the possible relief options break the idea of not getting to choose from different, known outcomes?

 

Just suggesting that you could view "outcome" as uncertain if outcome is the result of the shot played but as "certain" if "outcome" is the choice of the lie/location of the next shot in the context of deciding how to proceed if you are considering relief for an unplayable lie (which you do get to choose) but for me the notion of outcome wasn't really what I was trying to convey, simply that there is one example of a clear choice the Rules allow you between two balls. 

 

So absolutely as Dave and others point out, there may be notions the Rules generally support but that's generally, which sometimes keeps "never" out of a conversation.