Africa Amateur playoff question

[King_Slender]

Was anyone watching this?  
 

In the playoff Verster hit his second shot to a semi island green, one hopped off the green into a a downslope and into the water.

 

He dropped in the drop zone at 94 yards out, but they never addressed if he could have dropped where it went in.  
 

Was that not an option?

[rogolf]

15 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

Was anyone watching this?  
 

In the playoff Verster hit his second shot to a semi island green, one hopped off the green into a a downslope and into the water.

 

He dropped in the drop zone at 94 yards out, but they never addressed if he could have dropped where it went in.  
 

Was that not an option?

Didn't see it, but lateral relief (from where it went in) is only available for a RED penalty area, ie, not available if it was a YELLOW penalty area.

[King_Slender]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

Didn't see it, but lateral relief (from where it went in) is only available for a RED penalty area, ie, not available if it was a YELLOW penalty area.

 

Do you know where that is in the rule book?  I guess it's similar to #17 at TPC Sawgrass if you bounce on the green and go in the water over the green, but doesn't make sense to me.

• Ball covers front hazard
• Ball lands on green and rolls over through yellow

So why can't you drop where it went in?

[Newby]

2 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Do you know where that is in the rule book? 

See Rule 17.

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Do you know where that is in the rule book?  I guess it's similar to #17 at TPC Sawgrass if you bounce on the green and go in the water over the green, but doesn't make sense to me.

• Ball covers front hazard
• Ball lands on green and rolls over through yellow

So why can't you drop where it went in?

 

R17.1

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=17&subrulenum=1

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Do you know where that is in the rule book? 

 

Yes, he knows. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

9 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

So why can't you drop where it went in?

 

It depends whether the Penalty Area has been declared yellow or red, and that is up to the committee in charge to decide. There is no hard&fast rule to say which it should be so island greens may be quite differently marked around the globe.

[davep043]

I didn't see this either, but I'll bring up another possibility to add to the already correct answers.  When you read 17.1d(3) about Lateral Relief, you'll read that the Relief Area must be in the General Area, and no closer to the hole than the point where the ball last crossed the penalty area limit (the Reference Point).  Depending on the shape of the penalty area line and location of the hole, there may not be any acceptable relief area, that is, the entire potential relief area is actually inside the Penalty Area.  

[Hawkeye77]

Looking at the R&A highlight video - there appears to be a yellow stake you can see when the champ is putting is second to last putt, and at other times, but I don't want to claim that is definite, but don't know why a little marker would be there otherwise.  Can't make out any of the other markers.  

 

OP where is the "drop area" coming from?  Looking at him playing his shot after taking relief there doesn't appear to be any defined drop zone or any markings at all, looks like he just took a drop, IMO.  

 

EDIT:  It appears to be yellow - similar marker on 7 where he also went into the water.

Edited February 26 by Hawkeye77

[kwelifan]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Looking at the R&A highlight video - there appears to be a yellow stake you can see when the champ is putting is second to last putt, and at other times, but I don't want to claim that is definite, but don't know why a little marker would be there otherwise.  Can't make out any of the other markers.  

 

OP where is the "drop area" coming from?  Looking at him playing his shot after taking relief there doesn't appear to be any defined drop zone or any markings at all, looks like he just took a drop, IMO.  

There was a drop zone.  I believe he even removed the sign declaring it as such before he hit the shot.

[Hawkeye77]

10 minutes ago, kwelifan said:

There was a drop zone.  I believe he even removed the sign declaring it as such before he hit the shot.

It would have to have been marked with more than a sign (that is pristine and unmarked fairway to be considered a drop area) and seems an odd place to put one given the configuration of the hole and the penalty area, but . . . not mine to set up, lol, and would never claim I could!

Edited February 26 by Hawkeye77

[ClarkGrswld4]

waaay off topic but does anybody know what shoes Van der Merwe was wearing yesterday?

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

It would have to have been marked with more than a sign (that is pristine and unmarked fairway to be considered a drop area) and seems an odd place to put one given the configuration of the hole and the penalty area, but . . . not mine to set up, lol, and would never claim I could!

The DZ could have been defined simply as eg "within 2 clublengths of the green stake ...." 

It is not uncommon.

[sui generis]

40 minutes ago, Newby said:

The DZ could have been defined simply as eg "within 2 clublengths of the green stake ...." 

It is not uncommon.

 

Here I thought that I had invented that at my club decades ago. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

The DZ could have been defined simply as eg "within 2 clublengths of the green stake ...." 

It is not uncommon.

 

IMO that is the only sensible way to mark such a DZ if the DZ is often used. It is so easy to move the DZ to another location as there are no painted borders involved.

[Newby]

50 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Here I thought that I had invented that at my club decades ago. 😉

And I thought I had but then realised I got the idea many years ago from a Dutch referee who sadly died some years back. She had used orange stakes.

Edited February 26 by Newby

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

The DZ could have been defined simply as eg "within 2 clublengths of the green stake ...." 

It is not uncommon.

Thanks!

[King_Slender]

12 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Looking at the R&A highlight video - there appears to be a yellow stake you can see when the champ is putting is second to last putt, and at other times, but I don't want to claim that is definite, but don't know why a little marker would be there otherwise.  Can't make out any of the other markers.  

 

OP where is the "drop area" coming from?  Looking at him playing his shot after taking relief there doesn't appear to be any defined drop zone or any markings at all, looks like he just took a drop, IMO.  

 

EDIT:  It appears to be yellow - similar marker on 7 where he also went into the water.

 

The drop zone was back in the fairway 95 yards from the pin.

 

Reading the responses, the issue is that, like #17 at Sawgrass, because the green was effectively an island, there was no way to take relief where the ball crossed into the hazard and keep that point between the hole and the drop.  He would have effectively had to go over the water somewhere behind the green to take a legal drop (if that would even be legal).

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, King_Slender said:

 

The drop zone was back in the fairway 95 yards from the pin.

 

Reading the responses, the issue is that, like #17 at Sawgrass, because the green was effectively an island, there was no way to take relief where the ball crossed into the hazard and keep that point between the hole and the drop.  He would have effectively had to go over the water somewhere behind the green to take a legal drop (if that would even be legal).

 

Assuming the Penalty Area has been defined by red stakes/lines it may or may not be possible to drop onto the island. That depends on the location of the hole and the point of entry into the PA.

 

In such cases (including various greens at the "end" of a hole surrounded by a PA) when marking the margins of that PA it is customary to make sure there will always be a spot where the player may drop. If that is not possible to accomplish then a Drop Zone is established as an alternative means of taking relief. It is not fair to force a player to take stroke&distance just because they hit their ball one meter too far.

[King_Slender]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Assuming the Penalty Area has been defined by red stakes/lines it may or may not be possible to drop onto the island. That depends on the location of the hole and the point of entry into the PA.

 

In such cases (including various greens at the "end" of a hole surrounded by a PA) when marking the margins of that PA it is customary to make sure there will always be a spot where the player may drop. If that is not possible to accomplish then a Drop Zone is established as an alternative means of taking relief. It is not fair to force a player to take stroke&distance just because they hit their ball one meter too far.

 

Just looked up the course - it's called Leopard Creek.  Here's a link if you want to look at Hole 18:

 

https://www.ecaddy.co.za/gcl/courses/leopardcreek/#

 

The yellow scribble is where his ball went in the water (yellow staked) and the red circle at 80 approximates the drop zone.  I don't think there was anywhere to drop and remain on the island.

[Hawkeye77]

23 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Just looked up the course - it's called Leopard Creek.  Here's a link if you want to look at Hole 18:

 

https://www.ecaddy.co.za/gcl/courses/leopardcreek/#

 

The yellow scribble is where his ball went in the water (yellow staked) and the red circle at 80 approximates the drop zone.  I don't think there was anywhere to drop and remain on the island.

 

Had it been marked red (again, looked to be yellow) based on the live view, there would have been a spot to take relief but just because of the way the island swings out.  I assume without knowing that not messing around with drops and so forth for all sorts of reasons was the reason for the apparent drop area, which I'm assuming was mandatory.  

 

 

[rogolf]

On 2/26/2024 at 6:16 AM, Hawkeye77 said:

Looking at the R&A highlight video - there appears to be a yellow stake you can see when the champ is putting is second to last putt, and at other times, but I don't want to claim that is definite, but don't know why a little marker would be there otherwise.  Can't make out any of the other markers.  

 

OP where is the "drop area" coming from?  Looking at him playing his shot after taking relief there doesn't appear to be any defined drop zone or any markings at all, looks like he just took a drop, IMO.  

 

EDIT:  It appears to be yellow - similar marker on 7 where he also went into the water.

If you look at the highlight video again - at the beginning there's an overhead of the 18th hole and you can see a white circle painted in the fairway - looks like a dropping zone and even appears there may be a sign just in front of it?

[Newby]

55 minutes ago, rogolf said:

If you look at the highlight video again - at the beginning there's an overhead of the 18th hole and you can see a white circle painted in the fairway - looks like a dropping zone and even appears there may be a sign just in front of it?

Have you got a link to the video?

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

If you look at the highlight video again - at the beginning there's an overhead of the 18th hole and you can see a white circle painted in the fairway - looks like a dropping zone and even appears there may be a sign just in front of it?

Yep - there it is!  I think the white spot ahead may be (and would make sense) the 80 yard white course marker in the ground shown in the course guide, but not doubt there may have been a little sign there since someone indicated they thought he moved it before playing his shot.  Thanks!

[Hawkeye77]

29 minutes ago, Newby said:

Have you got a link to the video?

https://www.randa.org/articles/dramatic-africa-amateur-playoff-victory-for-south-africas-altin-van-der-merwe

[Newby]

41 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

https://www.randa.org/articles/dramatic-africa-amateur-playoff-victory-for-south-africas-altin-van-der-merwe

Which one is it?

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Which one is it?

When I click on the link on my phone

I see the final round highlights video and nothing else - that’s the one - on my laptop I think there may have been some in sequence across the screen, but go to the final round highlights.

 

The circle he’s talking about is just a few seconds in. The situation was towards the end. 

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

When I click on the link on my phone

I see the final round highlights video and nothing else - that’s the one - on my laptop I think there may have been some in sequence across the screen, but go to the final round highlights.

 

The circle he’s talking about is just a few seconds in. The situation was towards the end. 

Got it. Thanks

[Mr. Bean]

On 2/27/2024 at 2:27 PM, King_Slender said:

 

Just looked up the course - it's called Leopard Creek.  Here's a link if you want to look at Hole 18:

 

https://www.ecaddy.co.za/gcl/courses/leopardcreek/#

 

The yellow scribble is where his ball went in the water (yellow staked) and the red circle at 80 approximates the drop zone.  I don't think there was anywhere to drop and remain on the island.

 

 

Based on the picture there is an area to drop to appr. 9-10 o'clock from the yellow scribble. That area would be no closer to hole and outside the PA.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Based on the picture there is an area to drop to appr. 9-10 o'clock from the yellow scribble. That area would be no closer to hole and outside the PA.

As noted in the message, it's a yellow penalty area.  It's either stroke and distance, or a back-on-the-line.  For BOL, the yellow scribble needs to be kept between the drop and the hole.  In this case, it would be behind the water (towards the top of the picture).