My distance problem, is it genetics ?

[KD1]

12 hours ago, doctor220 said:

Tremendous athlete ? Lmao 

 

3 hours ago, doctor220 said:

Shane Lowry hits the ball far, is he an athlete ? I don’t think so. He’s an overweight out of shape guy.

 

I'm starting to think you have a shallow definition of what an athlete is.

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Couldn't disagree with you more.

 

Any reasonably healthy 50 year old should be able to swing at least 100mph without much effort. If they can't right now then they should be able to get there with a little work. 

 

The people who struggle with speed generally have multiple issues that need to be addressed like injuries, flexibility, strength and swing deficiencies but again - an average 50 year old male should have NO issue swinging 100mph.

LOL well I couldn't disagree with you more and neither of us is likely to prove the other wrong are we?  Unless you want to work with the OP and get him up to 100mph?  Sounds like you should be able to do that fairly easily?

[phizzy30]

18 hours ago, KD1 said:

I'm having a real hard time with the notion that anyone who isn't a pro could be anywhere near their "genetic" ceiling. That isn't to say that I think everyone can be on tour or even play at a high level, I mean no one else is putting in the time and resources to approach that particular ceiling. 

Yes and no.  Talent in golf can be spotted from a mile away if you look at kids playing golf.  Once they hit high school the difference is glaringly obvious.  The college kids that are on the PGA Tour U list are the ones that have potential to go onto the next level and play on some tour whether a developmental tour or higher.  A kid that sucks at golf growing up is highly unlikely to all the sudden become a tour pro even with a ton of range and course time.  Kurt Kitayama is an outlier in that he wasn't very good in high school and wasn't all that great in college either but became really good after college to the point where he's now won on the PGA Tour.  They mentioned this during a broadcast last year in one of the tournaments he was playing in.  

Edited March 11 by phizzy30

[phizzy30]

3 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Couldn't disagree with you more.

 

Any reasonably healthy 50 year old should be able to swing at least 100mph without much effort. If they can't right now then they should be able to get there with a little work. 

 

The people who struggle with speed generally have multiple issues that need to be addressed like injuries, flexibility, strength and swing deficiencies but again - an average 50 year old male should have NO issue swinging 100mph.

That's a very grey area because you need to factor in test levels which is why I can't agree or disagree with you on this one.  Test levels start to decline in our 40's.  50's it's even worst.  60's forget about it.  However, as long as said male in his 50's is relatively healthy and doesn't have any significant injuries or disabilities, he should be able to get his mobility,flexibility and strength to a good enough level to get decent swing speed provided he puts in the work in the gym.  We can take some of the guys on the Champions Tour as an example.  Retief, Padraig and Karlsson still make 170+ ball speed.  Miguel, Freddie and Stricker are in the 160's.  Hell, I don't even think Miguel works out but does claim to stretch, lol.      

Edited March 11 by phizzy30

[doctor220]

2 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

 

I'm starting to think you have a shallow definition of what an athlete is.

No, NFL OL and DL are tremendous athletes. Chubby golfers are not 

[phizzy30]

Just now, doctor220 said:

No, NFL OL and DL are tremendous athletes. Chubby golfers are not 

So John Daly in his prime wasn't athletic? 

[Rosco1216]

Genetics definitely are not contributing to your slow swing. Genetics come into play at the very very top end of potential as well as anatomical advantages. So long as you don’t have a significant restriction in mobility or significant strength deficiency compared to your peers, you can gain speed to be comparable 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

No, NFL OL and DL are tremendous athletes. Chubby golfers are not 

Are you basing it on purely what you see on tv or have you seen him doing other activities and they way he does them shows you he isn’t athletic?

 

[mgoblue83]

4 hours ago, Nels55 said:

LOL well I couldn't disagree with you more and neither of us is likely to prove the other wrong are we?  Unless you want to work with the OP and get him up to 100mph?  Sounds like you should be able to do that fairly easily?

 

Hey man no hard feelings but you are just wrong about this.

 

There is no reason whatsoever that a healthy 50 year old can't swing 100+ mph unless they have a terrible swing or some kind of significant physical limitations.

 

At 60 years old I agree with you and reaching 110mph may not be possible for some 50 year olds but 100 mph is basically a flick of the wrist for a reasonably healthy male.

 

My dad is 67 and invites me on a golf trip every year with 25~ of his buddies who are all 60-70 years old and their sons. Only a few of the guys are swinging less than 100 and it's due to stuff like hip replacements or really bad backs. These are all lifetime golfers who have decent swings but still. Remember 100mph is what most tour players are swinging 7i at and with driver it only equates to about 230-250yds.

 

Modern shafts just make it SO easy to swing 100 mph. 20 years ago that wasn't the case so maybe that's what you are basing this on?

 

Mikey from TXG is about the most unathletic person I've ever seen swing a club and he swings 106+. It just takes a little effort and training.

 

 

Edited March 12 by mgoblue83

[mgoblue83]

4 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

That's a very grey area because you need to factor in test levels which is why I can't agree or disagree with you on this one.  Test levels start to decline in our 40's.  50's it's even worst.  60's forget about it.  However, as long as said male in his 50's is relatively healthy and doesn't have any significant injuries or disabilities, he should be able to get his mobility,flexibility and strength to a good enough level to get decent swing speed provided he puts in the work in the gym.  We can take some of the guys on the Champions Tour as an example.  Retief, Padraig and Karlsson still make 170+ ball speed.  Miguel, Freddie and Stricker are in the 160's.  Hell, I don't even think Miguel works out but does claim to stretch, lol.      

 

I mean sure there are going to be exceptions but my point is simply that there is no reason an average healthy 50 year old male can't swing 100mph. With modern equipment (especially light weight shafts) it just comes down to deciding to do it and a little bit of training if needed.

[Nels55]

1 minute ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Hey man no hard feelings but you are just wrong about this.

 

There is no reason whatsoever that a healthy 50 year old can't swing 100+ mph unless they have a terrible swing or some kind of significant physical limitations.

 

At 60 years old I agree with you and reaching 110mph may not be possible for some 50 year olds but 100 mph is basically a flick of the wrist for a reasonably healthy male.

 

My dad is 67 and invites me on a golf trip every where with 25~ of his buddies who are all 60-70 years old and their sons. Only a few of the guys are swinging less than 100 and it's due to stuff like hip replacements or really bad backs. These are all lifetime golfers who have decent swings but still. Remember 100mph is what most tour players are swinging 7i at and with driver it only equates to about 230-250yds.

 

Modern shafts just make it SO easy to swing 100 mph. 20 years ago that wasn't the case so maybe that's what you are basing this on?

I am basing it on what I see every time I golf.  I am 68 years old and still can swing it around 100 mph which gets me out there around 230 or so at sea level.  I agree that there are plenty of guys who can swing it 100 mph and some a lot more then that.  I am thinking more along the lines that those who can't are not going to.  You can't teach speed.  You can max out whatever someone has but guys who swing at 75mph are not going to 100mph and I see a lot of them.  A much smaller percentage are going to swing 110 mph and a very few can get to 120 mph.  I don't really know what the percentages are and I may have over stated my case at 100 mph in reaction to the original post that said; "think 30-50 yr old adult men could easily get to 105-110 mph with decent swings".  That ain't happening with the majority of golfers that I have seen over the years.

[mgoblue83]

23 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I am basing it on what I see every time I golf.  I am 68 years old and still can swing it around 100 mph which gets me out there around 230 or so at sea level.  I agree that there are plenty of guys who can swing it 100 mph and some a lot more then that.  I am thinking more along the lines that those who can't are not going to.  You can't teach speed.  You can max out whatever someone has but guys who swing at 75mph are not going to 100mph and I see a lot of them.  A much smaller percentage are going to swing 110 mph and a very few can get to 120 mph.  I don't really know what the percentages are and I may have over stated my case at 100 mph in reaction to the original post that said; "think 30-50 yr old adult men could easily get to 105-110 mph with decent swings".  That ain't happening with the majority of golfers that I have seen over the years.

 

You are correct that there are tons of golfers swinging less than 100mph but the point is:

 

You most definitely can teach speed and if they decided to work for it just a little bit they would be able to swing 100mph or at least damn close. Absolutely no excuse to be less than 90mph as a healthy male under 60 years old.

 

Put it this way - Some people are very fast when sprinting and some people aren't but everyone can run. Swinging 100 mph with modern lightweight shafts is simply running instead of jogging. It might take a little work to run comfortably but everyone who is reasonably healthy can do it.

 

Reasons for swinging less than 100mph:

Poor swing

Poor flexibility

Lack of strength

Lack of will

Injuries or limitations (hip replacement etc)- This is the only one that someone doesn't have control over

Edited March 12 by mgoblue83

[mgoblue83]

Delete double post thanks.

Edited March 12 by mgoblue83

[GoGoErky]

16 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I am basing it on what I see every time I golf.  I am 68 years old and still can swing it around 100 mph which gets me out there around 230 or so at sea level.  I agree that there are plenty of guys who can swing it 100 mph and some a lot more then that.  I am thinking more along the lines that those who can't are not going to.  You can't teach speed.  You can max out whatever someone has but guys who swing at 75mph are not going to 100mph and I see a lot of them.  A much smaller percentage are going to swing 110 mph and a very few can get to 120 mph.  I don't really know what the percentages are and I may have over stated my case at 100 mph in reaction to the original post that said; "think 30-50 yr old adult men could easily get to 105-110 mph with decent swings".  That ain't happening with the majority of golfers that I have seen over the years.

How many of the ones you see all the time have a good swing? I’m guessing very few of them. Fix the swing and then depending on where they are in swing speed give them speed training protocol and they will be over 100.

 

[Nels55]

27 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

How many of the ones you see all the time have a good swing? I’m guessing very few of them. Fix the swing and then depending on where they are in swing speed give them speed training protocol and they will be over 100.

 

Those who are fast are fast regardless of swing mechanics.  Some who have no turn on the backswing could probably pick up some speed with a better turn but over speed training shows that the speed can be arrived at with a not so optimal swing for hitting the ball solidly.  I think that improving the swing mechanics would improve the overall game and probably add some speed and distance maybe 5 or 10 percent?  Everybody is different I have a friend who is a decent golfer with a good swing and swings his driver at 90mph.  Just for fun I had him swing my light weight speed sticks and he swung that at the same 90mph as his driver.  He is fairly good athlete also just not real fast.  Maybe if he trained he could get up over 100mph I don't know.  

[Rosco1216]

50 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I am basing it on what I see every time I golf.  I am 68 years old and still can swing it around 100 mph which gets me out there around 230 or so at sea level.  I agree that there are plenty of guys who can swing it 100 mph and some a lot more then that.  I am thinking more along the lines that those who can't are not going to.  You can't teach speed.  You can max out whatever someone has but guys who swing at 75mph are not going to 100mph and I see a lot of them.  A much smaller percentage are going to swing 110 mph and a very few can get to 120 mph.  I don't really know what the percentages are and I may have over stated my case at 100 mph in reaction to the original post that said; "think 30-50 yr old adult men could easily get to 105-110 mph with decent swings".  That ain't happening with the majority of golfers that I have seen over the years.

What you see when you play golf is a very narrow spectrum from your own view. In a broad view of capabilities, anyone swinging 75, so long as they don’t have a major physical restriction or injury, has more room to improve. Their speed deficiency is a neuromuscular connection hurdle and/or major swing inefficiencies. It’s not genetics or not just not being physically capable to do so. 

[PedronNiall]

29 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Those who are fast are fast regardless of swing mechanics.  Some who have no turn on the backswing could probably pick up some speed with a better turn but over speed training shows that the speed can be arrived at with a not so optimal swing for hitting the ball solidly.  I think that improving the swing mechanics would improve the overall game and probably add some speed and distance maybe 5 or 10 percent?  Everybody is different I have a friend who is a decent golfer with a good swing and swings his driver at 90mph.  Just for fun I had him swing my light weight speed sticks and he swung that at the same 90mph as his driver.  He is fairly good athlete also just not real fast.  Maybe if he trained he could get up over 100mph I don't know.  

 

That 10% improvement you speak of is the difference between 90 and just reaching 100 mph. Getting a sound swing or speed training can happen in either order, but doing the second without the first in place won't do anyone much good. Technique is a huge part.

 

Your brain literally will not let you easily swing above the speed where you can actually square up the club when a ball is in front of you. This was discussed in another recent thread on someone who was stuck on speed gains. It's exactly why you see guys who can whip it Devo style while doing practice swings then barely break 80 over the ball. Your brain prioritizes the main task, hitting the ball as squarely as you can, over the secondary task, swinging the club at maximum speed. I'm sure if your friend followed any of the vetted speed protocols he could reach higher practice swing speeds without issue. If he has a sound swing he could take those gains on the course. 

 

 

[Nels55]

18 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

 

That 10% improvement you speak of is the difference between 90 and just reaching 100 mph. Getting a sound swing or speed training can happen in either order, but doing the second without the first in place won't do anyone much good. Technique is a huge part.

 

Your brain literally will not let you easily swing above the speed where you can actually square up the club when a ball is in front of you. This was discussed in another recent thread on someone who was stuck on speed gains. It's exactly why you see guys who can whip it Devo style while doing practice swings then barely break 80 over the ball. Your brain prioritizes the main task, hitting the ball as squarely as you can, over the secondary task, swinging the club at maximum speed. I'm sure if your friend followed any of the vetted speed protocols he could reach higher practice swing speeds without issue. If he has a sound swing he could take those gains on the course. 

 

 

I don't know I have golfed with a lot of good players and guys who were seriously fast over my 57 years playing golf.  I really don't think that most golfers 30 to 50 years old can get up to 105 to 110 mph of clubhead speed.  Maybe 100 mph is attainable for more then 50 percent but I am doubtful. 

 

You know what if the 58 year old OP can get his swing speed from 80 to 105 mph then I guess I would be...  Wrong?  Gasp...  If that happens I'll call ya all my daddy and exit with my tail between my legs.  Of course I will still believe I was right...

[GoGoErky]

9 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Those who are fast are fast regardless of swing mechanics.  Some who have no turn on the backswing could probably pick up some speed with a better turn but over speed training shows that the speed can be arrived at with a not so optimal swing for hitting the ball solidly.  I think that improving the swing mechanics would improve the overall game and probably add some speed and distance maybe 5 or 10 percent?  Everybody is different I have a friend who is a decent golfer with a good swing and swings his driver at 90mph.  Just for fun I had him swing my light weight speed sticks and he swung that at the same 90mph as his driver.  He is fairly good athlete also just not real fast.  Maybe if he trained he could get up over 100mph I don't know.  

Sure some people are fast and can swing fast without an optimal swing, but others with less than optimal swing can gain speed by improving their swing for some it may only be 5mph and for others it could be more. We read on this forum and others about golfers picking up speed by using be ground better and for some of them it’s 10mph. Speed training has been shown to work for alot of people of all ages. 
 

The bolded part says it all. You don’t know because you are only going on your perceptions and assumptions, not from any training, coaching experience.

 

It’s not very hard for an able bodied 50 year old to swing 100mph or faster. There are some less abled bodied golfers across the internet that swing at 90mph. 

[naval2006]

14 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Yes and no.  Talent in golf can be spotted from a mile away if you look at kids playing golf.  Once they hit high school the difference is glaringly obvious.  The college kids that are on the PGA Tour U list are the ones that have potential to go onto the next level and play on some tour whether a developmental tour or higher.  A kid that sucks at golf growing up is highly unlikely to all the sudden become a tour pro even with a ton of range and course time.  Kurt Kitayama is an outlier in that he wasn't very good in high school and wasn't all that great in college either but became really good after college to the point where he's now won on the PGA Tour.  They mentioned this during a broadcast last year in one of the tournaments he was playing in.  

I couldn't agree more with your comment.  I've seen high school kids for almost 40 years and it's that way.  You identify the talented guys on the spot.  But there is also a category of player who is like an overachiever: they toil and toil until they make it.  They are more based on determination than talent. 

 

Julian Etulain, a pro from my area who's been coming and going from PGAT to KF comes to mind.  He was below average in his teens but he was remarkably driven towards pro golf.  Nobody believed he'd achieve much until he made it in his late 20's.  Most of his buddies are now playing high level amateur golf at club level and when you ask them how Julian made it they are simply clueless.  

[SurfDuffer]

On 3/7/2024 at 12:08 PM, Khill818 said:

I'm 58 and swing a driver about 80mph. It goes 175. When I was younger I was a club or 2 behind everyone I played with. I was a 3 sport guy in HS. My throwing arm was a negative. Sprinting? I'd race my pregnant wife and come in third.

 

However, I had endurance. Compared to my counterparts I could go all day. Even now in pickup hockey, with frequent breaks I have more in the tank than most.

 

I suspect I may be battling genetics and chasing a ghost.

 

Attempting to improve I've looked at 3 things. Instruction, conditioning and equipment.

What I've done or considered.

 

Instruction; I'm working through NTC and it has helped. Mostly with dispersion but it is going further.

 

Conditioning: A lot that I read on here. Squats, explosive medicine ball stuff. Check the flex test at P4success. Bands. Kettle bell.

 

Equipment: Nothing yet but I'm considering a driver fitting. I'm learning it's me not the club but I'm playing an 8 year old, used non adjustable driver I guessed at a few years ago.

 

I'm wondering how beneficial that stands to be. Off the tee is what is preventing me from enjoying the game more. I don't care that I need a 5H from 150. But to never have a chance at reaching a par 4 in 2 is frustrating.

 

What would your approach be?

 

Some of it is pure genetics.  It takes good swing mechanics, flexibility and speed to generate a high clubhead speed and achieve distance.  Being tall and having long arms helps too.  You're also battling age.  In my early forties my swing speed with the driver was consistently over 120.  The last time I was on a launch monitor it had dropped to 108-112 and if I had to guess, right now I'm probably down to 105-110.  When I get to 58 years old four years from now, who knows.

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Sure some people are fast and can swing fast without an optimal swing, but others with less than optimal swing can gain speed by improving their swing for some it may only be 5mph and for others it could be more. We read on this forum and others about golfers picking up speed by using be ground better and for some of them it’s 10mph. Speed training has been shown to work for alot of people of all ages. 
 

The bolded part says it all. You don’t know because you are only going on your perceptions and assumptions, not from any training, coaching experience.

 

It’s not very hard for an able bodied 50 year old to swing 100mph or faster. There are some less abled bodied golfers across the internet that swing at 90mph. 

Some folks pick up speed with various types of training and some don't.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Some folks pick up speed with various types of training and some don't.

Depends on the training. Will people gain speed just from going to the gym? Probably not and that has been discussed in several threads. Will going to the gym and training make anyone swing slower? Doubt it.

 

But in everything I’ve read anyone doing speed has gained some speed. Now whether or not they can take that to their on course swing is a different story as was recently talked about in another thread here on that subject and the persons swing flaws are what prevent them from seeing speed with their real swing and why instructors encourage people to fix their wing first before doing speed training.

 

 if you have data to support that speed training or any other type of training has nobody gaining speed I’d be interested in seeing it.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

14 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I don't know I have golfed with a lot of good players and guys who were seriously fast over my 57 years playing golf.  I really don't think that most golfers 30 to 50 years old can get up to 105 to 110 mph of clubhead speed.  Maybe 100 mph is attainable for more then 50 percent but I am doubtful. 

 

I'm in the camp that most able-bodied males under 50 should be CAPABLE of reaching 100 mph. And IMHO it won't even require "speed training". 100 mph isn't remotely "fast" in golf terms. 

 

Now, most won't ever get there. And for most of them, speed training with their current swings might even be counterproductive or lead to injury. 

 

IMHO the thing holding back most players that you've seen over the past 57 years from being faster isn't athleticism. It's technique. Which is why those players CAN probably get to 100 mph, and also why they WON'T. Because golf is hard and that'll take lots of lessons and lots of work 😉 

 

[doctor220]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Some folks pick up speed with various types of training and some don't.

You don’t need speed training to swing 100 mph. You need a decent swing, again assuming a reasonably healthy adult man. 
 

but speed training does work for basically everyone so that’s another thing you’re wrong about. I’m sure you’ll tell us about your two buddies who it didn’t work for though 

[Obee]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I'm in the camp that most able-bodied males under 50 should be CAPABLE of reaching 100 mph. And IMHO it won't even require "speed training". 100 mph isn't remotely "fast" in golf terms. 

 

Now, most won't ever get there. And for most of them, speed training with their current swings might even be counterproductive or lead to injury. 

 

IMHO the thing holding back most players that you've seen over the past 57 years from being faster isn't athleticism. It's technique. Which is why those players CAN probably get to 100 mph, and also why they WON'T. Because golf is hard and that'll take lots of lessons and lots of work 😉 

 

The problem with using a term like "able-bodied" to determine who (mostly) can and cannot swing 100mph is a problem. Can anyone see why?

[GoGoErky]

29 minutes ago, Obee said:

The problem with using a term like "able-bodied" to determine who (mostly) can and cannot swing 100mph is a problem. Can anyone see why?

Not really a problem except to those who don’t understand that a male who isn’t injured or some other physical ailment at the age of 50 has the capability to swing 100 mph.

 

Saying otherwise is about as crazy as the person saying the golf swing or other things can’t be taught 

Edited March 13 by GoGoErky

[Obee]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Not really a problem except to those who don’t understand that a male who isn’t injured or some other physical ailment at the age of 50 has the capability to swing 100 mph.

 

Saying otherwise is about as crazy as the person saying the golf swing or other things can’t be taught 

Everything can be taught, absolutely. Starting from scratch, everyone can get better at anything. Do you think everyone can become a scratch golfer? Do you think everyone can do college calculus? Do you think everyone could pass the CPA exams? The BAR? The actuarial exams?

With "enough practice, coaching, and will," anyone could do any/all of those things?

[Obee]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Not really a problem except to those who don’t understand that a male who isn’t injured or some other physical ailment at the age of 50 has the capability to swing 100 mph.

 

Saying otherwise is about as crazy as the person saying the golf swing or other things can’t be taught 

If a 50 year old whose current swing speed is 81 mph goes to a trainer and a swing coach and is not able to get to 100 mph swing speed, does that mean that person "must be injured or have some physical ailment"?

[GoGoErky]

9 hours ago, Obee said:

Everything can be taught, absolutely. Starting from scratch, everyone can get better at anything. Do you think everyone can become a scratch golfer? Do you think everyone can do college calculus? Do you think everyone could pass the CPA exams? The BAR? The actuarial exams?

With "enough practice, coaching, and will," anyone could do any/all of those things?

Exactly everything can be taught and some will do bette than others with what they are taught. 
 

as was discussed in the other thread you can teach someone to jump higher doesn’t mean they will be able to dunk. 
 

Nobody who has said golf can be taught or everything can be taught has said that every person who is taught will excel, but that they can be better than they were