What if professional golf banned caddies?

[bladehunter]

Old guys can’t carry.  In fact nobody should.  It’s horrible for the back.  You’d see motorized/push carts all over.  Dumb idea. 

[kiawah]

17 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Caddies won’t be banned and who cares what Clark’s caddie does - it’s 100% within the rules. And I’m guessing you are way overestimating the “us” who carry their own bags. 

I am not arguing whether or not what the pros do is legal. I think Clark's caddie is probably toeing the line on the rules, but I acknowledge that it's still allowed, although it probably isn't in the "spirit" of the rules. I just think it's gone too far and I would love to see pros figure it out for themselves more often. If they're really the best in the world, they shouldn't need someone holding their hand on every shot.

 

I'm also not overestimating "us" at all. I'm around scratch. If you put me in one of those tour events and I played reasonably well, I wouldn't even give the cut line a scare. I would just rather watch tour pros have to make their own decisions and talk themselves into shots rather than have the comfort and security of having someone constantly helping and even coaching them when they're off. Imagine if you were playing in a tournament with someone who could tell you if your alignment is off or if your swing gets a little too quick and could calculate the reads and line themselves up for you. Now imagine going in solo with only one practice round on that golf course. Which round do you think you're going lower in? I think those things are all skills that the pros should have on their own. Alignment and target selection is really hard! It would be a cool added challenge for them, and I feel like they get a pass on it when the average Joe doesn't.

 

My point about comparing them to us who carry our own bags would be that it would feel more relatable to the average amateur. Not that we should delude ourselves into thinking that the real difference between them and us is the caddies. Caddy or not, a lot of those guys could beat me lefty.

[Ferguson]

There is middle ground.  

 

Each player gets an "assistant." 

 

The "assistant" carries the bag but provides no assistance beyond divot replacement, flag holding and bunker raking.   

[straightshot7]

Pros carrying their own bag would be bad optics on TV, in my opinion.

 

I had to carry my own bag in college also. 36 holes the first day. Definitely more difficult than the physicality of the pro round. But, that was more like a fitness competition than golf, depending on how hilly the course. 

 

BUT, agree with a shot clock and changing the rules so that caddies aren't standing over putts. It's bad optics and not necessary. 

Those saying caddy standing over putts is legal - - umm yeah, for now. But they can make it illegal just like they made it legal. The Rules of Golf are updated every four years by the ruling bodies.

 

 

[kiawah]

16 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You want to do something productive - ban advice giving during collegiate rounds - no reason for it, get on with it already. 

Wholeheartedly agree with this take. The rules are already so dumb at the collegiate level and the rounds are actually absurdly slow. I had a 36 hole one day tournament my sophomore year. The first groups went off at 7:30 or 7:45 am. The tournament was shortened to 27 holes after the first round and the last two groups had to finish in darkness. College golf is so broken when there are kids on every team going out early and slow-playing the entire field. Our coach even deliberately sent off our slowest players first just to try and frustrate everyone behind them. Sadly, it works.

[oughtaquit]

I'm down - let's give it a try.  Long committee meetings before each shot do not enhance my viewing experience.   No use trying to regulate caddy behavior either; that will just lead to an endless cycle of creative dodges and regulation amendments.  Bottom line: they abused the privilege, so they lose the privilege.  

 

I recall reading Jack Nicklaus quoted once as saying something to the effect of, "I like Angelo, but I'm not gonna ask him what club to hit."  Exactly.  

[Pops99]

What Clark and his caddie are doing on the green is not at all cheating and absolutely within the rules.

 

However, it looks f***ing horrible and the optics are just bad. 

 

The rule about lining players up before shots came in mostly due to the LPGA players being lined up on every. single. shot. and not pulling the trigger until the caddie said to hit. Was a terrible look and made the players look slightly incompetent. Same applies to Clark here.

 

I would never want caddies banned. I would like to see their involvement on the greens limited. Can only pull/tend the pin but then must be off the green. Can't straddle players lines (aimpoint), and can't squat behind or address player's ball. Especially with a club in hand. That looks so damn stupid and makes me laugh every time. Lining up a guys putt with a wedge is just so so low rent lol

 

You suck BlowPig. 

[kiawah]

9 hours ago, Justsomeguy said:

Nobody would carry a staff bag for 4 days. Fitness and endurance would be even more important.

Some guys would thrive. Others would wilt. The younger players would have an even bigger edge.

 

16 hours ago, MattM97 said:

I find golfers and their caddies to be like baseball pitchers and catchers. Some the catcher is literally calling all the shots and the pitcher just executes, others the pitcher  is basically doing everything and catcher is the yes man then you get everything in between. That's how I see golfers and caddies, part of the game just different ways to go about it.  

 

17 hours ago, Mike412 said:

I would like to see major limits on caddy involvement once on the green but other than that I don’t see a problem.

I'd be fine with that, too. I don't necessarily see a problem with 99% of player-caddy interactions, I just thought the topic would be a fun theoretical

[kiawah]

1 hour ago, Creedo77 said:

They don’t speed up play at the pro level. It’s been tried before and showed no signs of it improving speed of play 

I don't think giving a caddie a rangefinder would speed up play, either. I think getting rid of a caddie and giving them a rangefinder instead would. When you don't have someone to talk to to ease the pressure of tournament situations, you probably wouldn't want to spend a long time deliberating over what shot to hit on your own.

[otto6457]

1 hour ago, MaineMariner said:

I don't really have an opinion on banning caddies, but I am totally curious as to what a professional golf tournament would look like without caddies. I wish I could see it just once. I imagine the round would go at a much different pace (faster most of the time, slower at other points) and it would be an interesting test of golf skills.

Just go watch most any mini-tour event..  Only about 10-20% of the players have caddies.  Those are usually the players wives or best buddies.  In my experience the rounds are no faster or slower with caddies on the bag, at least at the mini-tour level.

[IndyArcher]

49 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

There is middle ground.  

 

Each player gets an "assistant." 

 

The "assistant" carries the bag but provides no assistance beyond divot replacement, flag holding and bunker raking.   

 

Before I started playing and following golf more avidly in my mid-20's, that is EXACTLY what I thought a caddie did. I remember being surprised to really watch my first tournament and seeing someone giving advice and talking lines with the player. I thought it was simply, "Hey, hand me my 6 iron."

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, kiawah said:

I am not arguing whether or not what the pros do is legal. I think Clark's caddie is probably toeing the line on the rules, but I acknowledge that it's still allowed, although it probably isn't in the "spirit" of the rules. I just think it's gone too far and I would love to see pros figure it out for themselves more often. If they're really the best in the world, they shouldn't need someone holding their hand on every shot.

 

 

He's not "toeing" any line - 100% legal and no such thing as "spirit of the rules" - it's legal and lol the "gone too far" bit.

 

Edit:  Yes, he's toeing the line! Legal!

Edited March 26 by Hawkeye77

[st1800e]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

He's not "toeing" any line -

"Toeing the line" refers to the act of obeying rules, guidelines, or expectations strictly.

 

https://usdictionary.com/idioms/toeing-the-line/

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, st1800e said:

"Toeing the line" refers to the act of obeying rules, guidelines, or expectations strictly.

 

https://usdictionary.com/idioms/toeing-the-line/

 

 

Like I said, he's toeing the line! 😀

 

Thanks!  Learn something every day - always thought it meant testing the line of the rule.

[Augie53]

Ok.  While we're at it can we eliminate ball spotters and make the players find their own ball on the course?  I watch golf daily and I rarely see a player lose a ball even after they hit it 40 yards into a forest.  I go out and stripe one down the fairway, lose it in the sun, and end up with a lost ball in the middle of the fairway under a leaf that I inevitable stumble across after having played my provisional into the green, LOL.

 

But seriously, a lot of these guys just bomb it out there with no concern of losing a ball.  Maybe putting a premium on finding the fairway will roll the bomb and gouge back a bit.

[Murphy76]

 

No Caddie?

 

I believe Ping Hoofer golf bag sales would skyrocket.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Old guys can’t carry.  In fact nobody should.  It’s horrible for the back.  You’d see motorized/push carts all over.  Dumb idea. 

 

Junior organizations have allowed push carts for years because carrying isn't good for the backs of growing kids, either.  

[hackeraz]

.

Edited March 26 by hackeraz

[gvogel]

18 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I'd support a shot clock 10x over before any caddy ban.

 

I actually find the player - caddy discussions, especially when in a tough situation, to be quite interesting to hear. 

If they don't take too long.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

Those saying caddy standing over putts is legal - - umm yeah, for now. But they can make it illegal just like they made it legal. The Rules of Golf are updated every four years by the ruling bodies.

 

 

 

Standing over, crouching behind, whatever --- it looks bad because someone doesn't like the player whose caddie is doing it.  Not a bad look at all, frankly and takes less time than most of the guys lining up their own putts or having endless conversations.  

 

Really is a big nothing.  And no, the ruling bodies aren't going to stop a caddie from standing over a ball on the green holding a wedge.

[Ferguson]

31 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Standing over, crouching behind, whatever --- it looks bad because someone doesn't like the player whose caddie is doing it.  Not a bad look at all, frankly and takes less time than most of the guys lining up their own putts or having endless conversations.  

 

Really is a big nothing.  And no, the ruling bodies aren't going to stop a caddie from standing over a ball on the green holding a wedge.

 

 

And maybe this guy feels obliged to do "more" for his player as part of earning his wage. 

 

 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

 

And maybe this guy feels obliged to do "more" for his player as part of earning his wage. 

 

 

And it works, lol, which just galls people because, well, that's how some folks are.

 

Without knowing why, I assume he holds a wedge because it saves time transferring the putter back and forth (wish they'd do that just to see heads explode, haha).  Probably just gives a visual.

 

People thought a guy getting all Spiderman on the greens years ago was so cool . . . . now triggered, lol.

[munichop]

5 hours ago, Ferguson said:

There is middle ground.  

 

Each player gets an "assistant." 

 

The "assistant" carries the bag but provides no assistance beyond divot replacement, flag holding and bunker raking.   

THIS is what a pro caddie should be limited to doing.  Each pro should have to figure green reads and wind on their own.  Give them range finders and a yardage book and send them out.  Their "assstant" can help with the other stuff during practice rounds.  Here is and idea to make the sponsors happy.  You only can  put your caddie on the course before the tourney if you play in the pro am.  Otherwise no help during practice rounds.

[straightshot7]

4 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Standing over, crouching behind, whatever --- it looks bad because someone doesn't like the player whose caddie is doing it.  Not a bad look at all, frankly and takes less time than most of the guys lining up their own putts or having endless conversations.  

 

Really is a big nothing.  And no, the ruling bodies aren't going to stop a caddie from standing over a ball on the green holding a wedge.

Personally I don't have a crystal ball so I don't know what the ruling bodies will do. I didn't think they'd start allowing you to ground your club in a penalty area, but here we are.

 

Regardless of rules, when does it end? Do you want the caddy lining up the player on tee shots also? 

Should the caddy start lining up the ball for the player, or is that off limits?

I would rather just see the player read his own putts. There has to be a limit drawn somewhere on caddie involvement.

 

But obviously it's just a matter of opinion. Neither of us can claim to have THE only answer on this.

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

Personally I don't have a crystal ball so I don't know what the ruling bodies will do. I didn't think they'd start allowing you to ground your club in a penalty area, but here we are.

 

Regardless of rules, when does it end? Do you want the caddy lining up the player on tee shots also? 

Should the caddy start lining up the ball for the player, or is that off limits?

I would rather just see the player read his own putts. There has to be a limit drawn somewhere on caddie involvement.

 

But obviously it's just a matter of opinion. Neither of us can claim to have THE only answer on this.

 

Caddies have been reading putts for players for 200 years or more, were indispensable (even when required) at Augusta National and on and on.

 

Going to extremes really has nothing to do with caddies reading putts - Vijay Singh would have been lost, haha.

 

Happy to wager on whether the ruling bodies at the next opportunity will disallow the reading of putts by caddies.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, munichop said:

THIS is what a pro caddie should be limited to doing.  Each pro should have to figure green reads and wind on their own.  Give them range finders and a yardage book and send them out.  Their "assstant" can help with the other stuff during practice rounds.  Here is and idea to make the sponsors happy.  You only can  put your caddie on the course before the tourney if you play in the pro am.  Otherwise no help during practice rounds.

 

Why? How does this affect you?

 

Professional golfers are happy with how the caddie relationship works and I'm sure those caddies that are better at certain things appreciate a better standard of living - not really for you to judge, IMO.

[munichop]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Why? How does this affect you?

 

Professional golfers are happy with how the caddie relationship works and I'm sure those caddies that are better at certain things appreciate a better standard of living - not really for you to judge, IMO.

None of it affects me.  It is MY opinion that I would prefer pro caddies have less input in the competition than they do now.  Your opinion may be different.  That is why there is a discussion about the subject.   It is no different or arbitrary than a competitor being limited to 14 clubs.  The caddie's role over time has changed and been modified as a result in competition.  I believe it would be a better test of the pro's abililty to restrict what a caddie can do during a competition.  For awhile a caddie was allowed to aim the player prior to a shot.  That abililty was removed because aiming a shot is a skill that is part of the competition.  For me reading the wind and reading a putt are similar skills that a player should do individually.  For me a caddie should not be able to offer anything a player cannot get from a competitor. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

14 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Caddies have been reading putts for players for 200 years or more, were indispensable (even when required) at Augusta National and on and on.

 

 

Exactly. When I was a caddie at age 13 I don't think any of the members' guests that I carried for would want to trust me reading putts, but it is absolutely a job that a caddie can help with. 

 

If at some point I make to a course along the lines of Pebble or Bandon where hiring out a caddie to carry my bag is normal, I absolutely look forward to it. The idea of someone with great local course knowledge telling me about things maybe I can't see off the tee, or "this putt looks like it'll break right towards the ocean but actually that's a deception and it goes left" are the kind of things I'd be paying them good money to tell me, not just carrying my bag. 

 

Caddies are part of the rich tradition of the sport, and the caddie exists to help the player execute a round of golf, not just be an undifferentiated manual laborer. 

[Nickb333]

There’s only one guy pulling the trigger. 
 

Anyway. I still think range finders would help move things along. Guys like Cantley and Harmon aside ( just put them on the clock)  things will move along better if the caddie doesn’t have to step things off. It sure looked faster to me the last time I watched a round when they used range finders. 

[Barfolomew]

Talkin bout Caddys bringing too much...... always thought the game within the game in pro golf is for the pro to find a caddy who is the best green reader they can find on planet earth or beyond