Launch Monitor Results vs. On-Course Results

[dpb5031]

Ok, I went through a driver fitting a couple of weeks ago on the latest and greatest Callaway launch monitor at Golfdom. I demoed a bunch of different drivers including the Titleist 909 D2 & D3 with the Diamana and Voodoo, Rapture V2 with both the Diamana and stock ping shafts, a bunch of Callaway FTIs and the Adams Insight A4.

 

In the end, I came home with a 9.5 Adams A4 with the Matrix 60g stiff shaft because that set-up gave me the best ball speed and the most ideal spin and launch numbers relative to the other choices. My ball speed number was consistently 4 to 5 mph faster with the Adams. With a 104-107 swing speed on a center hit I was averaging 152-160 ball speed with the Adams with about 3200-3500 rpms of spin and about 13-14 degree launch. Carry and ball flight looked great on the monitor. Thinking I had a sure winner, I couldn't wait to get this to the course.

 

PROBLEM: I have played 4 rounds with this club now and hit it horribly each time. I cannot get a repeating ball flight/shot shape. I am a pretty solid 5 handicap and play the ball right to left through my bag. With this driver I lost quite a few drives to the right... very unusual for me. I also have been hitting these over-the-top pulls to the left. (I know these are just bad swings but they just keep showing up with this club!) I have hit a few really nice bombs with it but cannot get consistent or repeating results. It really has me rattled now and very disappointed.

 

I am thinking of having the shaft butt trimmed because it is about 3/4 of an inch longer than what I am used to. I am also wondering if it just might be that the shaft is not right for me or that the head has a fade bias that I am not accustomed to. My previous set-up is a Ping Rapture 9* with a Speeder 757 stiff flex. I wanted a new driver because I was looking for a little flatter ball flight with less spin and more roll-out. I usually hit the ball pretty high. (Also the weight pad came off of the Rapture and I had to send it back to Ping. They are replacing the head.)

 

This experience really shows the importance of trying clubs outdoors where you can see the actual ball flight results along with the data.

 

Any suggestions?

[MtlJeff]

4 rounds isn't enough to give up or make modifications on the club in my opinion, give it more time. Every single time i buy a new driver i struggle the first couple of times out on the course with it. Whether it's face angle, longer shaft...it takes some time to adjust, you must be a pretty good ball striker as a 5 handicap i'm sure it will come around

[odshot68]

Cut 3/4" of an inch off it..you were be much more consistent...this will also stiffen it a little which will make it play closer to you older 757 stiffness. Even at a 5 this will be much easier to hit. On a monitor its easy to dial in a club for better players...you should only hit a couple of times or else we can learn to hit anything.

[Slapjax7s]

Agreed with the post above, you have to give it more time. Also note that the test is done in "Natural Conditions." Its not the same as being outside, the computer will give you a "calculation" on how far the driver should go in "Natural Conditions." When you were fitted for the Adams, were you able to try different shafts? If it wasn't the Adams, what was the second best driver you hit?

[swanry30]

you have a couple of different variables you are potentially working against. 757 is a heavier shaft than the 60g Matrix. are they playing to the same length? swing weight? i too noticed significant ball speed increases from the a4 to other new clubs. at the time my rapture w/xvs7 voodoo hung tough with it in all catagories and i hit it more consistent (trackman at an outdoor range where i could see with my own eyes). i also found that if i tried any other shaft in the a4 my ball speed increases disappeared.

 

my advise. unless you just don't like the driver - get it set up to the same length/swing weight as your old gamer. then give it a couple of rounds... if not dump it and go back to the rapture and tip the shaft to get the ball flight down.

[marrigo]

Cut 3/4" of an inch off it..you were be much more consistent...this will also stiffen it a little

 

Trimming from the butt end has very little effect on stiffness, if anything it will make play less stiff.

[dpb5031]

Thanks to all for the thoughtful responses and advice. When I went through the fitting, my next best results were with a Rapture V2 9* with the Diamana stiff flex shaft. With this set-up, my balls speed was 3-4 mph lower and the spin slightly higher than the A4.

 

I did not have the opportunity to try the A4 with different shafts. I really just cannot believe how much I struggled with this driver after what seemed to be such a great fitting.

 

Living in New Jersey the opportunity to play is dwindling due to the weather, but I guess I'll have to give this driver more time as most of you are recommending. I usually take a couple trips South over the winter. I sure hope I can get it figured out beforehand.

[e-man]

I couldn't agree more. Launch monitors are great, but only to an extent. Earlier this year, I was fitted for a Ping G10 driver. I am a 6.2 index with a driver swing speed of 95 mph. I first narrowed it down to the correct shaft. The V2 and the Prolaunch Red felt too stiff to me (even in regular flex), and the TFC129d felt great. Between the regular and the stiff, there was no contest -- with the regular I was hitting the ball all over the place (in terms of where the ball was going and where I was hitting it on the face). With the TFC129d stiff, the contact was much better and more consistent. In short, the shaft felt perfect to me.

 

Okay, on to loft. I must have hit at least 50 balls with each the 10.5 and the 9.0. With the 10.5, my numbers were not good -- 15-17 degree launch, 3500-4000 spin, carry of maybe 220 and overall distance of 230. With the 9.0, the club came alive -- 12-14 degree launch, 2500-3000 spin, 235 carry and 255 of overall distance. So I was sold, 9.0 degrees, done.

 

On the course, the club was a different story. I hit it very solidly, but all I could manage to hit were these low bullets. Overall distance was good, but it seemed as if I had no carry at all. If I was faced with a hole where a forced carry was required, forget it, I just couldn't do it. I would try to open the face to increase the loft, and then all hell would break loose. I ended up selling the club.

 

Here's the problem with indoor launch monitors. I don't know what a 12-14 degree launch angle looks like on the course. You can tell me from today until tomorrow that 12-14 degrees is the perfect launch angle with 2500-3000 spin, but unless I know what that launch/spin looks like on the course, it's useless to me.

 

I really wish we had golf stores/pro shops in Chicago that have an outdoor launch monitor. Maybe we do and I just haven't found it yet. It would make it a lot easier to make a decision and to be confident in the decision.

 

e

[Slapjax7s]

You have to also take into effect that a persons swing will change from indoors to outdoors. Knowing what launch and spin looks like on the course is irrelevant. Why does that have to be explained to you or why do u need to see it? When your buying a car and they tell you it gets 14 miles per gallon do you have to have that explained to you as well? If your on a launch monitor your seeing ball flight, you should see the same type of ball flight outside. If its going lower, it can be your swing. Also when your being fitted, the fitter should explain what Launch and spin means, and how it works.

[MizzyMan]

I couldn't agree more. Launch monitors are great, but only to an extent. Earlier this year, I was fitted for a Ping G10 driver. I am a 6.2 index with a driver swing speed of 95 mph. I first narrowed it down to the correct shaft. The V2 and the Prolaunch Red felt too stiff to me (even in regular flex), and the TFC129d felt great. Between the regular and the stiff, there was no contest -- with the regular I was hitting the ball all over the place (in terms of where the ball was going and where I was hitting it on the face). With the TFC129d stiff, the contact was much better and more consistent. In short, the shaft felt perfect to me.

 

Okay, on to loft. I must have hit at least 50 balls with each the 10.5 and the 9.0. With the 10.5, my numbers were not good -- 15-17 degree launch, 3500-4000 spin, carry of maybe 220 and overall distance of 230. With the 9.0, the club came alive -- 12-14 degree launch, 2500-3000 spin, 235 carry and 255 of overall distance. So I was sold, 9.0 degrees, done.

 

On the course, the club was a different story. I hit it very solidly, but all I could manage to hit were these low bullets. Overall distance was good, but it seemed as if I had no carry at all. If I was faced with a hole were a forced carry was required, forget it, I just couldn't do it. I would try to open the face to increase the loft, and then all hell would break loose. I ended up selling the club.

 

Here's the problem with indoor launch monitors. I don't know what a 12-14 degree launch angle looks like on the course. You can tell me from today until tomorrow that 12-14 degrees is the perfect launch angle with 2500-3000 spin, but unless I know what that launch/spin looks like on the course, it's useless to me.

 

I really wish we had golf stores/pro shops in Chicago that have an outdoor launch monitor. Maybe we do and I just haven't found it yet. It would make it a lot easier to make a decision and to be confident in the decision.

 

e

 

I agree. Launch monitors are fine but I think mostly for fine-tuning. I've had much better luck hitting things on the course/range and then maybe using a L/M to fine tune the loft or shaft. To buy a club from a shop based on indoor monitor session seems to result in alot of mistaken purchases. I never swing the same in a store as I do when loosened up on a range.

[jones137]

Sounds to me like the shaft is too light. The speeder is a much heavier shaft that is more tip stiff.

 

I'm confused as to why the fitter thought 3,200 to 3,500 rpm of spin was good for 155-160 of ball speed. That's way too much spin for that ball speed. You'd really want to be around 2,400-2,600. A heavier more tip stiff shaft should bring those numbers down.

 

The A4 head is an awesome head........for you paired with a speeder 757 would probably shine.

[e-man]

You have to also take into effect that a persons swing will change from indoors to outdoors. Knowing what launch and spin looks like on the course is irrelevant. Why does that have to be explained to you or why do u need to see it? When your buying a car and they tell you it gets 14 miles per gallon do you have to have that explained to you as well? If your on a launch monitor your seeing ball flight, you should see the same type of ball flight outside. If its going lower, it can be your swing. Also when your being fitted, the fitter should explain what Launch and spin means, and how it works.

 

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I agree that I don't need to know what spin looks like on the course, but I definitely need to know what a 12 or 13 degree launch angle looks like. Maybe it's just a matter of preference. Maybe it's because the course I play demands longer carries off the tee. I don't know. But I do know that if a 12-13 degree launch angle in the launch monitor equates to low bullets with not much carry on the course, then that's not a good fit for me.

 

As for swinging different in the monitor than on the course, I do agree that it's possible. In the launch monitor, I find that you tend to swing much harder than you do on the course because there's no penalty if you hit a wild shot.

 

e

[Slapjax7s]

You have to also take into effect that a persons swing will change from indoors to outdoors. Knowing what launch and spin looks like on the course is irrelevant. Why does that have to be explained to you or why do u need to see it? When your buying a car and they tell you it gets 14 miles per gallon do you have to have that explained to you as well? If your on a launch monitor your seeing ball flight, you should see the same type of ball flight outside. If its going lower, it can be your swing. Also when your being fitted, the fitter should explain what Launch and spin means, and how it works.

 

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I agree that I don't need to know what spin looks like on the course, but I definitely need to know what a 12 or 13 degree launch angle looks like. Maybe it's just a matter of preference. Maybe it's because the course I play demands longer carries off the tee. I don't know. But I do know that if a 12-13 degree launch angle in the launch monitor equates to low bullets with not much carry on the course, then that's not a good fit for me.

 

As for swinging different in the monitor than on the course, I do agree that it's possible. In the launch monitor, I find that you tend to swing much harder than you do on the course because there's no penalty if you hit a wild shot.

 

e

 

I agree totally with what you just said. I guess my side of it is, if your getting fit outside, your just putting drivers in your hands and hitting shots. I guess when I fit I like to explain what the numbers mean and how a certain swing will affect the numbers and how to correct them.

[dpb5031]

Since the fitting I have been reading more into this whole launch data thing (This GolfWRX website is actually addictive) and you seem to be right about the spin. The thing is, when I went through the fitting my spin was pretty high with all of the clubs I tried. The Adams was in fact the lowest spinning at around 3200. Another thing worth considering is that all of the clubs that I tried were pretty much the major manufacturers stock options. I did try the Rapture V2 with both the stock shaft and the Diamana with the latter providing better results. Some have suggested that perhaps I would be better off with an after market shaft (like the Speeder in my Rapture). I know the Matrix is supposed to be a great shaft if you find the right fit.

 

Thanks again for all the helpful replies.

[Pepperturbo]

Ok, I went through a driver fitting a couple of weeks ago on the latest and greatest Callaway launch monitor at Golfdom. I demoed a bunch of different drivers including the Titleist 909 D2 & D3 with the Diamana and Voodoo, Rapture V2 with both the Diamana and stock ping shafts, a bunch of Callaway FTIs and the Adams Insight A4.

 

In the end, I came home with a 9.5 Adams A4 with the Matrix 60g stiff shaft because that set-up gave me the best ball speed and the most ideal spin and launch numbers relative to the other choices. My ball speed number was consistently 4 to 5 mph faster with the Adams. With a 104-107 swing speed on a center hit I was averaging 152-160 ball speed with the Adams with about 3200-3500 rpms of spin and about 13-14 degree launch. Carry and ball flight looked great on the monitor. Thinking I had a sure winner, I couldn't wait to get this to the course.

 

PROBLEM: I have played 4 rounds with this club now and hit it horribly each time. I cannot get a repeating ball flight/shot shape. I am a pretty solid 5 handicap and play the ball right to left through my bag. With this driver I lost quite a few drives to the right... very unusual for me. I also have been hitting these over-the-top pulls to the left. (I know these are just bad swings but they just keep showing up with this club!) I have hit a few really nice bombs with it but cannot get consistent or repeating results. It really has me rattled now and very disappointed.

 

I am thinking of having the shaft butt trimmed because it is about 3/4 of an inch longer than what I am used to. I am also wondering if it just might be that the shaft is not right for me or that the head has a fade bias that I am not accustomed to. My previous set-up is a Ping Rapture 9* with a Speeder 757 stiff flex. I wanted a new driver because I was looking for a little flatter ball flight with less spin and more roll-out. I usually hit the ball pretty high. (Also the weight pad came off of the Rapture and I had to send it back to Ping. They are replacing the head.)

 

This experience really shows the importance of trying clubs outdoors where you can see the actual ball flight results along with the data.

 

Any suggestions?

 

While doing some Voodoo research I came across your post. There is NO comparison between 757 and Matrix. Not only is the weight dramatcially different but the profile overall is different. Matrix shafts are great but not where I'd go if coming from a happy experience using 757 mid-high kick heavy shaft. The weight difference alone will throws off my tempo. I've tested a few Matrix shafts in hopes... didn't work, and I have 757 in my TP 3wd.

[DaveMac]

Out of interest how many members who posted an on course dislike to the Optimum Fit Driver actually bought the exact Club that they tested?

 

How many used a fitting cart club, but bought another club of the same specification?

 

How many used the ball they normally play for testing?

[joey3108]

This is shows how tip stiffness shaft design can not be ignore for a certain type of players and swing. Lots of my customers come to me with your problem after fitting.

 

Getting the numbers out of the LM is one thing but understanding the whole thing to fit you properly and pick the right combo is another game/art to itself IMO. Lots of factors need to be consider and calculate before making those decision. Ideal numbers are not the same to every players. Don't get fooled by what the machine tells you only or what the book says. Machine is a good way to guide the fitter only IMO, after that is the fitter knowledge on every single parts of the set up he is letting you try to narrow down the choice, not to mention building it to the correct specs too.

 

Longer does not mean straighter and in most cases are true!

[SoCalTitleist]

I hate LMs. I have a totally different swing indoors and I'm always try to murder the ball.

[Luke_Donald]

Maybe the face is too open.

I couldn`t hit a L4Vx anywhere as straight as my 905R. Mostly slices and pulls, that are no problem with my 905. If I hit a ball well, it went mile. Stayed with the good old 905R.

 

I have a little fear the same thing could happen with a A4. But I am very curious to try...

[dpb5031]

Luke,

 

Interesting that you say slices and pulls as that seems to be what I'm best at with this driver. My good drives are very good with it but now after over a dozen rounds I can say for certain that it has got to go. For whatever reason, this driver does not fit me very well in spite of that fact that it provided the best launch monitor numbers. I have made it work and shot a couple of good scores with it in the bag but I really don't feel comfortable with it. I draw everything in my bag and rarely lose the ball right but have had a number of drivers go way right with this club (if they are not dead pulled). Maybe there is something to your open face-angle theory but I don't know, I would think that I would be able to adjust to that by now.

 

The good news is that Ping is going to replace my original Rapture head that broke for free. Ping really is great at standing behind their products...I am impressed. The Adams A4 will end up on Ebay and perhaps I will start over with a quest for a new driver or just stick with the Rapture/757 combo that has worked for me for the past 3 seasons. I was hoping to get something with lower spin so maybe it will end up being the Rapture V2 with the perfect shaft...for me. I am also interested in the Exotics XCG-V because I love their 3 wood and hybrids. Rest assured, whatever I try I will hit outdoors where I can see the ball flight in real life before my next purchase.

 

Lesson learned: Launch monitor data is great, but you can't beat what you see with your own eyes.

 

Thanks to everyone for their comments and advice.

[STRICK-9]

DPB:

 

I have to agree w/ you as far as using launch monitors. When I bought my last driver, a Cleb Hi-Bore XLS Tour 10.5* w/ Red Fuji shaft...the LM indicated a sliced every shot 50 yards right of target. When old the guy I'll take it...he laughed. I then proceeded to tell him I have never hit a slice or fade in my life...and in fact, I'm one of the few who can draw a 64* wedge.

 

Once on the course, I can hit a subtle fade or 15 yard draw on command.

[dpb5031]

Joe,

 

Based on your knowledge and experience what driver/shaft combos should I be looking at given my success with the Ping Rapture 9* with 757 tour stiff Speeder? As indicated in my first post I average between 103-107 ss, launch it pretty high-13.5-14.5*, and generally spin it in the 3200-3600 range. I set my wrists late in the swing (at the top) and try to hold that load on the shaft through impact. I am a high ball hitter with all clubs in my bag and play a draw with all clubs.

 

Based on what I have read, it would behoove me to get my spin down a bit. I am willing to invest in a new driver to take advantage of the latest technology.

 

Any thoughts?

[joesgonegolfing]

This is shows how tip stiffness shaft design can not be ignore for a certain type of players and swing. Lots of my customers come to me with your problem after fitting.

 

Getting the numbers out of the LM is one thing but understanding the whole thing to fit you properly and pick the right combo is another game/art to itself IMO. Lots of factors need to be consider and calculate before making those decision. Ideal numbers are not the same to every players. Don't get fooled by what the machine tells you only or what the book says. Machine is a good way to guide the fitter only IMO, after that is the fitter knowledge on every single parts of the set up he is letting you try to narrow down the choice, not to mention building it to the correct specs too.

 

Longer does not mean straighter and in most cases are true!

 

 

Joe fits me over the phone better than any Launch Monitor I had over the six years (and I owned a shop with mutiple monitors)

 

The only thing I can add to this thread is, I know if the driver is right ROUND ONE. If it does what I expect it to do in terms of shape and trajectory then I am home free.

 

I did fittings on LM's for almost 3 years, and honestly unless you are consistently over 105 miles per hour many of todays offerings are going to play similar. You need to find what puts you in the fairway, not always the longest driver you find through a LM. Predictable shape lets you play a better game of golf.

 

Joe

[jgb]

I'm convinced that the much better traction indoors on a mat and the fact that it is generally easier to concentrate in that enclosed environment leads to a better swing indoors than most of us take on the course. That's one reason I've switched to good soft soled tennis shoes rather than the no spikes crap. YMMV.

[eagles1]

Dew

 

I'll sell it for you on ebay - for a fee:>)

 

Cheers - good thread.

 

JO

[dpb5031]

Thanks J.O.,

 

I'm not in a big rush...still waiting for my Rapture replacement to come back from Ping. The quest will continue...

 

Someone on this thread made a great observation about having a driver that produces a predictable and consistent shot shape and ball flight (on the course) that you can count on. That type of dependability should trump a few extra yards of distance every time. Nothing worse than setting up down the right side expecting a draw only to lose it way right.

 

Best,

[goondawg]

Trimming from the butt end has very little effect on stiffness, if anything it will make play less stiff.

 

Not true, cutting a shaft shorter will stiffen it some.

[DaveMac]

Out of interest how many members who posted an on course dislike to the Optimum Fit Driver actually bought the exact Club that they tested?

 

How many used a fitting cart club, but bought another club of the same specification?

 

How many used the ball they normally play for testing?

No one has taken me up on the questions.

 

I was offering an alternative possibility for the difference in performance between launch monitor and course. Was the poor one course performance due to a poor fit (using the wrong ball) or a poor build (right fit, but delivered club not the same specification as the test club)?

 

Just a thought.

[bm303]

Sounds to me like you need to give the driver a shot and really work on your swing with it. I personally have blamed clubs for swing issues in the past but in reality it was all me and not the club. One thing I DO feel that should be addressed is shaft length. I have been struggling with my 44.5" shaft and am considering having it cut to 44.5".

[Dyno]

This is shows how tip stiffness shaft design can not be ignore for a certain type of players and swing. Lots of my customers come to me with your problem after fitting.

 

Getting the numbers out of the LM is one thing but understanding the whole thing to fit you properly and pick the right combo is another game/art to itself IMO. Lots of factors need to be consider and calculate before making those decision. Ideal numbers are not the same to every players. Don't get fooled by what the machine tells you only or what the book says. Machine is a good way to guide the fitter only IMO, after that is the fitter knowledge on every single parts of the set up he is letting you try to narrow down the choice, not to mention building it to the correct specs too.

 

Longer does not mean straighter and in most cases are true!

 

 

Joe fits me over the phone better than any Launch Monitor I had over the six years (and I owned a shop with mutiple monitors)

 

The only thing I can add to this thread is, I know if the driver is right ROUND ONE. If it does what I expect it to do in terms of shape and trajectory then I am home free.

 

I did fittings on LM's for almost 3 years, and honestly unless you are consistently over 105 miles per hour many of todays offerings are going to play similar. You need to find what puts you in the fairway, not always the longest driver you find through a LM. Predictable shape lets you play a better game of golf.

 

Joe

 

Joe is really good at picking out information and formulating conclusions based on player feedback. Most are either good at swing or at gear.....Joe is a master at analyzing both, hence his success.

 

His bullxxxx detector is also very sharp so for all you higher caps out there - Joe knows when you been bad and when you been good. Like Santa.