PGA Players Wedge Bounces

[D3Coach]

It seems they're all pretty high...

I'm looking at the pics of all the PGA guys' wedges and i'm noticing all the bounces are high...14 on the 56, 8 or 10 on the 60's...what's up with that? I thought these guys would play super low bounce since they're all so talented.

[Hstead]

More bounce is much more versatile. I have learned that this year actually when I switched to a Scratch 60 with 14* of bounce. I have always played a low bounce, 4* 60. My Scratch wedge is actually the easiest wedge I have ever hit flop shots with, even though it has more bounce. The grind is more important, and I have heel relief on my DD grind which makes it lay flat when I open it up. If you use the bounce correctly, you can hit the ground first right behind the ball and have the bounce kick the club up into the ball and shoot it higher in the air. That is how Phil hits his super high flops, by hitting the ground first.

[drpino]

I'd imagine most pros have a ton of wedges to choose from and likely mix and match depending on the course being played, its conditions, type of grass, length of rough, # of bunkers, design around the greens, etc. Additionally, some of the stamped bounce angles may not necessarily be the measured and/or effective bounces as a result of grinds.

[FAIRWAYFOUND!]

[quote name='Hstead' date='21 January 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1264138249' post='2196439']
More bounce is much more versatile. I have learned that this year actually when I switched to a Scratch 60 with 14* of bounce. I have always played a low bounce, 4* 60. My Scratch wedge is actually the easiest wedge I have ever hit flop shots with, even though it has more bounce. The grind is more important, and I have heel relief on my DD grind which makes it lay flat when I open it up. If you use the bounce correctly, you can hit the ground first right behind the ball and have the bounce kick the club up into the ball and shoot it higher in the air. That is how Phil hits his super high flops, by hitting the ground first.
[/quote]

Absolutely! With the right grind you lay the lob wedge on the ground and it gets under the ball then the bounce comes in and kicks the ball in the air and creates spin. I have 10* but 14 sounds even better!

[Yepyukon]

Most pros don't have a problem with taking a divot which would indicate most would want more bounce. Low bounce is great for certain shots, but you can achieve the same results with high bounce and a good grind.

[kiwidave]

Maybe something to do with the perfectly manicured course's they play. The course all ways play hard ad fast, but the turf is still soft enough to take a divot, and bare lie's are pretty non-existant

[oldpalchamp]

Pros know how to use the bounce in tneir wedges. Many of them use Stan Utley as their short gane guru. Utley is a big proponent of using bounce. Pitching the ball is so much easier with a much larger margin of error when you use the bounce of your wedge.

[IM_ALL_IN]

Are you referring to the pictures at the hope? They've had a bunch of rain which tends to make low bounce less attractive. It all depends on the playing conditions.

[acquadiice]

i think its all about the playing conditions...

[dlygrisse]

The grind is as important, if not more important than the bounce. Often times low bounce wedges have wide soles which when you open them up play with more effective bounce, often higher bounce wedges have narrower soles or more back edge grind which make them play with less effective bounce especially when opeing them up.

I really depends on how you use the wedge. Scratch's on-line fitting tool is nice because it takes playing condition, style, and the main purpose of the wedge into account.


As a PP stated the Utley style calls for more bounce, I started hitting more shots like this recently and have found that by going with a 12* bounce with an M grind really works well, I can flop it off of concrete if needed.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='D3Coach' date='21 January 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1264137762' post='2196429']
I'm looking at the pics of all the PGA guys' wedges and i'm noticing all the bounces are high...14 on the 56, 8 or 10 on the 60's...what's up with that?  I thought these guys would play super low bounce since they're all so talented.
[/quote]

Don't take what you see in pictures as gospel, let alone for all pros.  Many pros switch out wedges based on conditions; some prefer low or moderate bounce while others have one wedge for firm another for soft conditions.  It all depends on the pros wedge skill and how he likes to use each club.  Remember, just because they are called pros doesn't mean each has "10" skill with a wedge from all conditions.  I've played many tour courses.  Turf conditions vary from soft to firm; tour bunkers on the other hand are similar from track to track, each being paddled with a USGA prescribed amount of sand which contributes to the "thump" sound.  Believe it or not, it's easy to get out of those types of bunkers with a low bounce wedge.

[jaskanski]

I'm looking at the pics of all the PGA guys' wedges and i'm noticing all the bounces are high...14 on the 56, 8 or 10 on the 60's...what's up with that? I thought these guys would play super low bounce since they're all so talented.

 

Don't take what you see in pictures as gospel, let alone for all pros. Many pros switch out wedges based on conditions; some prefer low or moderate bounce while others have one wedge for firm another for soft conditions. It all depends on the pros wedge skill and how he likes to use each club. Remember, just because they are called pros doesn't mean each has "10" skill with a wedge from all conditions. I've played many tour courses. Turf conditions vary from soft to firm; tour bunkers on the other hand are similar from track to track, each being paddled with a USGA prescribed amount of sand which contributes to the "thump" sound. Believe it or not, it's easy to get out of those types of bunkers with a low bounce wedge.

 

 

 

 

I'd agree with that. There is no magic bounce number that is the most versatile for the majority of conditions or lies you may encounter. The player preference and style has a lot to do with it too. For us mortals who don't have the luxury of multi wedge options on tap, I prefer to use a wedge with a low to mid bounce for a bit of versatility for my style of play. To my logic, it's a lot easier to pick a ball from a soft lie than it is to dig a ball from a firm lie, hence my choice of bounce.

[H.A. Kerr]

[quote name='drpino' date='21 January 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1264139747' post='2196473']
I'd imagine most pros have a ton of wedges to choose from and likely mix and match depending on the course being played, its conditions, type of grass, length of rough, # of bunkers, design around the greens, etc.
[/quote]


Yep. I got a look at Stewart Cink's bag awhile back while it was in "travel mode". For two of his wedges, he was carrying duplicate lofts with bounce being the variable.

[johnnythunders]

I play a public course in a league with no bunkers and tightly mown fairways and very light rough. I'm also a picker sweeper so I play an old Merit zero bounce 56 degree forged wedge for the last 16 years. I've also taken a few Mizuno R and T series and ground them like the Merit and have used them the last few years. I can't hit a high bounce wedge off the fairway for anything. Course conditions and your skill are the key.

[dbren1]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='22 January 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1264189607' post='2197316']
[quote name='D3Coach' date='21 January 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1264137762' post='2196429']
I'm looking at the pics of all the PGA guys' wedges and i'm noticing all the bounces are high...14 on the 56, 8 or 10 on the 60's...what's up with that?  I thought these guys would play super low bounce since they're all so talented.
[/quote]

Don't take what you see in pictures as gospel, let alone for all pros.  Many pros switch out wedges based on conditions; some prefer low or moderate bounce while others have one wedge for firm another for soft conditions.  It all depends on the pros wedge skill and how he likes to use each club.  Remember, just because they are called pros doesn't mean each has "10" skill with a wedge from all conditions.  I've played many tour courses.  Turf conditions vary from soft to firm; tour bunkers on the other hand are similar from track to track, each being paddled with a USGA prescribed amount of sand which contributes to the "thump" sound.  Believe it or not, it's easy to get out of those types of bunkers with a low bounce wedge.
[/quote]

My understanding was that the PGA tour expect the same sand and bunker conditions at each course on the schedule, otherwise the pros are unhappy.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='dbren1' date='22 January 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1264195185' post='2197530']
My understanding was that the PGA tour expect the same sand and bunker conditions at each course on the schedule, otherwise the pros are unhappy.
[/quote]

Sand condition is just one part of the equation. The players hit far more wedges from the turf than sand...

Kevin

[Pepperturbo]

Your right about how many shots, but you're overlooking what gets the most TV attention - bunker play.

Prior to any tournament typically either the PGA or USGA visits to direct changes and conditioning.  Approximately 3-4 months prior to most tournaments both organizations show up to take over the course, possible reconfiguration, even take over play.

Turf height is limited as are turf conditions based on PGA/USGA standards Some courses have two to three types of turf around their course which influences play at times.  The typical Muni course has maybe a basic drain in the middle, and dirt bottom in bunkers with nothing special sand dumped in on top.  

The thump that's commonly talked about on tour and TV is the result of properly padded (thickness varies up to lips) conditoned bunkers; often with French drains underneath.  Sand depth varies but needs to fall within PGA/USGA expectations.  If something varies at a tour course it's  the type of sand in bunkers, but the PGA/USGA even has their preference.  That thump is important because otherwise tour pros won't be getting it as close as we see on TV.  At my last club we spent almost 2 million on new bunkers, computerized sprinking system and proper drainage.

[jaskanski]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='22 January 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1264198271' post='2197625']
Your right about how many shots, but you're overlooking what gets the most TV attention - bunker play.

Prior to any tournament typically either the PGA or USGA visits to direct changes and conditioning. Approximately 3-4 months prior to most tournaments both organizations show up to take over the course, possible reconfiguration, even take over play.

Turf height is limited as are turf conditions based on PGA/USGA standards Some courses have two to three types of turf around their course which influences play at times. The typical Muni course has maybe a basic drain in the middle, and dirt bottom in bunkers with nothing special sand dumped in on top.

The thump that's commonly talked about on tour and TV is the result of properly padded (thickness varies up to lips) conditoned bunkers; often with French drains underneath. Sand depth varies but needs to fall within PGA/USGA expectations. If something varies at a tour course it's the type of sand in bunkers, but the PGA/USGA even has their preference. That thump is important because otherwise tour pros won't be getting it as close as we see on TV. At my last club we spent almost 2 million on new bunkers, computerized sprinking system and proper drainage.
[/quote]


And they wonder why they need to change the groove rules? [b]Pampered [/b]is a word that springs to mind. Nothing to do with balls methinks, but plenty to do with 'made for TV golf'.

[Pepperturbo]

Pampered is right.  I know this isn't talked about much and please forgive it being off topic, but if tour players had to play typical municipal conditions (without millions invested) the public would see a different caliber of golf, and then say, why watch that on TV.  Essentially courses would look much like they did thirty years ago, not bad, but not HD pristine, like Palmer does on TV.

If you've been watching the BH Classic in LaQuinta, note the wonderful conditions.  We've been there a number of times recently, it's that way most of the time too.  The fairways look like carpet, with grass the same length every where, right up to the patios and pools... bunker conditions and tee boxes are magnificent, and the ball rolls like it' has eyes .  It's pinch me am I alive golf, reason we're looking at homes.  

 

[OldSkoolTexan]

[quote name='drpino' date='21 January 2010 - 11:55 PM' timestamp='1264139747' post='2196473']
I'd imagine most pros have a ton of wedges to choose from and likely mix and match depending on the course being played, its conditions, type of grass, length of rough, # of bunkers, design around the greens, etc. Additionally, some of the stamped bounce angles may not necessarily be the measured and/or effective bounces as a result of grinds.
[/quote]
<br>
exactly....

[KevCarter]

Your right about how many shots, but you're overlooking what gets the most TV attention - bunker play.

 

 

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the topic was TV coverage. I don't know what I was thinking...

 

Kevin

[finalist]

[quote name='Hstead' date='21 January 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1264138249' post='2196439']
More bounce is much more versatile. I have learned that this year actually when I switched to a Scratch 60 with 14* of bounce. I have always played a low bounce, 4* 60. My Scratch wedge is actually the easiest wedge I have ever hit flop shots with, even though it has more bounce. The grind is more important, and I have heel relief on my DD grind which makes it lay flat when I open it up. If you use the bounce correctly, you can hit the ground first right behind the ball and have the bounce kick the club up into the ball and shoot it higher in the air. That is how Phil hits his super high flops, by hitting the ground first.
[/quote]

Word for word my experience.
I use to play vokey 60° w/ 4° of bounce thinking that was versatile, but it's not. I found the low bounce to be a one trick pony for hard tight flop shots... which is not too common. If I have a tight lie I usually don't need a flop shot. I can just bump and run it. I find myself needing flop shots when I attack a pin and miss off the green into the rough pin high.

Dirt is really pretty soft even in the summer, so getting my 13° of bounce through the turf for a flop is easy.

Scratch PWE grind!

[Pepperturbo]

It's great you guys say flops shots are now no brainers...   but what I am not reading is how often those no brainers are actual kick in pars  or birdies that turn into low scores.

[Hstead]

[quote name='finalist' date='22 January 2010 - 05:41 PM' timestamp='1264200068' post='2197671']
[quote name='Hstead' date='21 January 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1264138249' post='2196439']
More bounce is much more versatile. I have learned that this year actually when I switched to a Scratch 60 with 14* of bounce. I have always played a low bounce, 4* 60. My Scratch wedge is actually the easiest wedge I have ever hit flop shots with, even though it has more bounce. The grind is more important, and I have heel relief on my DD grind which makes it lay flat when I open it up. If you use the bounce correctly, you can hit the ground first right behind the ball and have the bounce kick the club up into the ball and shoot it higher in the air. That is how Phil hits his super high flops, by hitting the ground first.
[/quote]

Word for word my experience.
I use to play vokey 60° w/ 4° of bounce thinking that was versatile, but it's not. I found the low bounce to be a one trick pony for hard tight flop shots... which is not too common. If I have a tight lie I usually don't need a flop shot. I can just bump and run it. I find myself needing flop shots when I attack a pin and miss off the green into the rough pin high.

Dirt is really pretty soft even in the summer, so getting my 13° of bounce through the turf for a flop is easy.

Scratch PWE grind!


[/quote]

I was exactly the same way. I always played a 4* bounce 60*, either the Vokey or the 588. I thought I needed the low bounce to hit flops and our course can get brick hard in the summer. Jon talked me into the SFU grind from Scratch with 14* bounce. I had recently read Utley's books too and have been working on some of his techniques and I know he advocates at least 12* of bounce. So I took Jon's advice and went with the 14* bounce. I can't believe how easy it is to flop. It is so much easier to flop than my old 4* wedges it isn't funny. All due to the grind. Way to go Scratch.

[backspin26]

I remember reading a few years ago an article about players changing their wedges prior to the British Open, and they were going with more bounce. I thought the writer made a mistake with the firm conditions usually associated with links golf, but it went on to talk with Bob Vokey and he said that with more bounce the C.O.G. is raised and it helps keep the ball flight down in the wind.

[Onebulldogs]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='22 January 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1264198565' post='2197634']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='22 January 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1264198271' post='2197625']
Your right about how many shots, but you're overlooking what gets the most TV attention - bunker play.

Prior to any tournament typically either the PGA or USGA visits to direct changes and conditioning. Approximately 3-4 months prior to most tournaments both organizations show up to take over the course, possible reconfiguration, even take over play.

Turf height is limited as are turf conditions based on PGA/USGA standards Some courses have two to three types of turf around their course which influences play at times. The typical Muni course has maybe a basic drain in the middle, and dirt bottom in bunkers with nothing special sand dumped in on top.

The thump that's commonly talked about on tour and TV is the result of properly padded (thickness varies up to lips) conditoned bunkers; often with French drains underneath. Sand depth varies but needs to fall within PGA/USGA expectations. If something varies at a tour course it's the type of sand in bunkers, but the PGA/USGA even has their preference. That thump is important because otherwise tour pros won't be getting it as close as we see on TV. At my last club we spent almost 2 million on new bunkers, computerized sprinking system and proper drainage.
[/quote]


And they wonder why they need to change the groove rules? [b]Pampered [/b]is a word that springs to mind. Nothing to do with balls methinks, but plenty to do with 'made for TV golf'.
[/quote]

I think they would have better ratings and more fan interest if they made pros hit the following shot now and then: The lack of sand and rain have combined to create hardpan in the bunker. Indeed, the bunker cannot be raked due to the hardpan/wet conditions.

[jim rockford]

things that go BUMP in the night.... thought i'd revive this instead of starting something new.

 

looking into new wedges and setups. wedges are so important. i read DJ saying he spends 80% of his practice time on wedges. that seems very high but i certainly concur with the general idea that they are very important AND need to be practiced alot.

 

as per the conversation so far, as the one person pointed out with british open and bounces being surprising, i think the use of wedges is both simple and complicated in different ways. having basic good form is paramount but then there are many different ways you need to play with your wedges. alot of variables. sort of like playing chess. alot of rote memory work and a ton of analytical thinking.

 

my very basic question was if there is a convention as to bounce and gap/lob wedges. it seems generally you want a high bounce SW unless you are very skilled. then i would have thought to have one of the other 2 wedges be very low bounce. and you could any bounce on the 3rd wedge as you have both ends of the spectrum covered.

 

FYI, i looked up for some WITB wedges and their bounces.

 

first one i found and only one so far. and sorry i didn't list the actual wedge name/company.

 

46 pw... 8 bounce. F grind

52 .... 8b, F grind

56. (SW?)... 10b, S grind

60 4b L grind...

 

obviously jordan is immensely talented and practices alot. the partial counter is he probably plays some very tight turf.

 

i play in vancouver BC. very very wet for 8 months a year. almost no rain in the summer... so you go from quite muddy (high bounce) to some fairways that get moderately hard-pan in summer (low bounce)... so it's a bit of a quandry....... i have been a digger but am transforming reasonably successfully to being a sweeper....... lastly, i had a really cheap 60W with a 4 bounce and seemed to like that alot.

 

thanks for any thoughts :)

[jim rockford]

add-on to comment..

 

i hope i got that right in terms of tight turf and low bounce. and then high bounce (and good technique) for wet, soft turf. probably good technique for both but wet, soft conditions means you have to be either perfect contact or very shallow swing.

[FairwayFred]

things that go BUMP in the night.... thought i'd revive this instead of starting something new.

 

looking into new wedges and setups. wedges are so important. i read DJ saying he spends 80% of his practice time on wedges. that seems very high but i certainly concur with the general idea that they are very important AND need to be practiced alot.

 

as per the conversation so far, as the one person pointed out with british open and bounces being surprising, i think the use of wedges is both simple and complicated in different ways. having basic good form is paramount but then there are many different ways you need to play with your wedges. alot of variables. sort of like playing chess. alot of rote memory work and a ton of analytical thinking.

 

my very basic question was if there is a convention as to bounce and gap/lob wedges. it seems generally you want a high bounce SW unless you are very skilled. then i would have thought to have one of the other 2 wedges be very low bounce. and you could any bounce on the 3rd wedge as you have both ends of the spectrum covered.

 

FYI, i looked up for some WITB wedges and their bounces.

 

first one i found and only one so far. and sorry i didn't list the actual wedge name/company.

 

46 pw... 8 bounce. F grind

52 .... 8b, F grind

56. (SW?)... 10b, S grind

60 4b L grind...

 

obviously jordan is immensely talented and practices alot. the partial counter is he probably plays some very tight turf.

 

i play in vancouver BC. very very wet for 8 months a year. almost no rain in the summer... so you go from quite muddy (high bounce) to some fairways that get moderately hard-pan in summer (low bounce)... so it's a bit of a quandry....... i have been a digger but am transforming reasonably successfully to being a sweeper....... lastly, i had a really cheap 60W with a 4 bounce and seemed to like that alot.

 

thanks for any thoughts :)

 

Having multiple different bounce angles is recipe for disaster. You will have one wedge you love and one wedge you don't. This is the biggest mistake people make with wedge fitting and setup. Get your wedges fit to how you swing the club. Conditions are a distant distant second consideration after angle of attack for bounce angle.

[vanillafunk616]

Pictures can be deceiving because of bending lofts and custom grinds. But in general too, the bounce number stated on the club doesn't matter nearly as much as the bounce on the part of club that interacts with the turf. For example, both the Callaway s grind and pm grind have 10 degrees of bounce, but the late bounce on the pm totally changes how it plays.