(my opinion)TAYLORMADE DOESN'T DESERVE OUR SUPPORT

[The Sheepdog]

people!

I am not a TaylorMade hater. I used to bag nothing but TM from the Firesole era right up to r7. Then I joined this site. I began to realize what a "big box" retailer TaylorMade is. While other OEM's are guilty as well, TaylorMade is by far the worst, and here is the reason: The TaylorMade U.S. Market vs. The TaylorMade Japan Market.
The quality, beauty and selection of their Japan market is fantastic. The new Forged R9 irons in 2 models, the Burner TP irons, the Burner Forged irons, and of course all of the previous models. And what do they offer us over here? Crap. Hard castings (won't even soft cast them like they do the Burner TP's), gaudy, busy graphics and ugly badges. Even if you like your current TM irons, whether they are the Burners or R9's, you know that they are not making you their best. They are building us their "C" line of clubs, and we are buying it!
For them to offer their sirloin to Japan and feed us table scraps is demeaning. It lets them know they can get away with it, and makes the North American market look like a bunch of chumps. Yes, other OEM's may have ridiculous marketing ploys, but at least they are building us their best. Cleveland with the Black Pearl line, Titlesist, Ping, Tour Edge, and to me, the best right now by far: Adams. Yes, if you look at my sig, you'll see TM clubs. But not for long, I will be replacing them before this season. I'm not going to accept this crap from them anymore, there are way too many more options out there.

[B Keller]

I largely agree with you, but I think we have done it to ourselves. There is a difference between the average American and Japanese consumer.

Look at the pricing of the equipment here and there. It is way higher there! Why? Because they demand a superior quality and are willing to pay for it.

Do we want high quality? Sure, as long as it costs the same as the regular stuff. That's why TM and the other OEM's market and develop the two lines completely differently. It's what "we" want.

[The Sheepdog]

[quote name='B Keller' date='07 February 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1265575699' post='2234472']
I largely agree with you, but I think we have done it to ourselves. There is a difference between the average American and Japanese consumer.

Look at the pricing of the equipment here and there. It is way higher there! Why? Because they demand a superior quality and are willing to pay for it.

Do we want high quality? Sure, as long as it costs the same as the regular stuff. That's why TM and the other OEM's market and develop the two lines completely differently. It's what "we" want.
[/quote]

Yah, I thought of that. I've bought TM irons from Tourspec golf in Japan and I really don't find them that much more expensive. The irons are all between $950 and $1050, not really more than you'd pay for a new set here. Also, the Japanese manufacturers do make some really expensive stuff, but the TM stuff isn't at that price point. What I'm saying is that manufactures like Titleist, Mizuno and Adams manage to make top quality forged designs and sell them to the U.S. market, why can't TM?

[jaskanski]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' date='07 February 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1265577052' post='2234521']
What I'm saying is that manufactures like Titleist, Mizuno and Adams manage to make top quality forged designs and sell them to the U.S. market, why can't TM?
[/quote]

Because they suck?
Nah, that's unfair. The rate at which TM produce new models in irons, top quality forged ones would cost them the earth. Companies like Mizuno and Titleist use a 2 year production cycle rather than the 2 week one employed by TM. The tooling and production cost of the forging process is the most expensive way to make clubs, so TM is wise not to blow the family silver on a club that would cost too much to produce and that might not give a return in profit. Forging irons is overrated anyway - just ask any Miura owner.

[WesleyD]

R7 425 Tp or R9 Tp?
Superquad TP or SuperTri Tp?
07 Burner or '10 Burner Superfast?
R7 tp fairway or R9 tp fairway?
Tp MB irons or R9 tp irons?
R7 Tp irons or R9 tp irons?

I just think their older stuff is better, I don't like the sleeve "gimmick." Some of those new Kia Ma putters look really nice though...

[boycer]

If you like the japan offerings better, then just buy it from tourspecgolf.com. I have the japan version supertri and the black itsy bitsy spider, and R9 staff bag. Would probably ordered the R9 forged if I wasn't already having my mizunos redone before I found out about them. I like it that way, you have different TM stuff then most others.

[hef63303]

Manufacturers have often offered new technologies in Japan, before offering them here. Titanium Woods, Graphite shafts, etc were unveiled in Japan long before America. The Japanese market will only buy new technology and they will pay a premium for it. Makes for a great place to test new technology and to cover the cost of developing it.

[Billy Barou]

I agree with boycer10 above. If you want the "sirloin" from Japan - buy it! Until there is a trade embargo with them, what's the problem? Will it cost more than the U.S. stuff? Yep, it sure will, but then, you seem OK with that knowing that the stuff here is shite - so all is well.

If you couldn't acquire the Japanese offerings, I would agree that is was pretty unfair, but the fact that is doesn't figure in TM's profit strategy to offer them here, but is available to anyone (including us) if you are willing to pay for it, makes this a complete non-issue.

-Kev

[KYMAR]

[quote name='jaskanski' date='07 February 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1265577644' post='2234547']
[quote name='Ragamuffin' date='07 February 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1265577052' post='2234521']
What I'm saying is that manufactures like Titleist, Mizuno and Adams manage to make top quality forged designs and sell them to the U.S. market, why can't TM?
[/quote]

Because they suck?
Nah, that's unfair. The rate at which TM produce new models in irons, top quality forged ones would cost them the earth. Companies like Mizuno and Titleist use a 2 year production cycle rather than the 2 week one employed by TM. [b]The tooling and production cost of the forging process is the most expensive way to make clubs,[/b] so TM is wise not to blow the family silver on a club that would cost too much to produce and that might not give a return in profit. Forging irons is overrated anyway - just ask any Miura owner.
[/quote]

The point is that they already produce these irons and simply choose not to offer them here. There is no additional tooling cost associated with irons you already make. So not sure how that would "blow the silver"

And I tend to agree with the premise the OP has put out here. The thing with me though is that I don't ever buy New clubs. Strictly new components or used gear. So let me know what TM stuff you will be selling.

[BIRD]

Thats why i stick with Mizuno and Titleist!!

[BIRD]

Oh, and I am so ready for this stupid sleeve interchangeable crap to go away, its just too much and cause too many shafts to be ruined for other clubs without extensions and what not

[progolf4life]

TaylorMade is a business. There looking to produce a product that consumers will buy at the cheapest cost to them. Most businesses operate just like this. As far as comparing the equipment in Japan to US a lot has to do with the economy and target audience. Every company could be producing better products / more consistent products but that would lead to higher costs.

[TMBob]

I see you point and feel your frustration, I just look at it different then you. First, you mentioned that till you became a member here you did not know that TM was such a Big Box retailer. This site creates a high demand for what you called sirloin goods.

Just visit Tour Spec and one will see all the sirloin that they could ever want and this has been going on for quite sometime now. It is the "bling" site for golf goods. Not because it has special offerings from just TM, but from all the major brand names and more. The Asian market has a huge demand and is willing to spend the dough for these items, were here in the US market bling is just not selling as much as you think

These are just two different markets and just because you feel that TM needs to change it's marketing plan for the US doesn't mean that is the best for TM, or any other company.

Just look at TM ads, all about the Driver is it not? Why so? Hmmmm, do you think that they sell more Drivers or Irons sets? Yes I know that you would just like to see more "forged" offering like they do over seas, but the demand is very low here when compared to over there, plus a few other companies do quite well with there forged offerings.....Maybe TM is just picking their best battle that they can win. We all saw the pics from the past two tour stops and saw many staffers with other irons in their bags.

I just think you have to realize that the US market and Asian market are different and have been for quite sometime. Being able to balance those two different markets properly is not easy to do and I tend to think that TM knows what it is doing, even it that means loosing you as a customer because they are not offering you a certain set of irons here in the US

Just the way I see it, TMBob

[ronstars]

Hey MODS let's get a new forum...Venting! Seems like a whole lot of this sort of thing on here daily and to save us that don't want to waste time with it, make a forum just for these people! Come on Adams!! Ya they make good stuff same as TM at least TM can keep paint on their clubs for more than a round!!! Haha move to japan if you want that stuff that bad bro

[The Sheepdog]

I hear what you guys are saying, but I think some of you (Billy Barou, Ronstars) are missing my point. I know that I could buy TM from Japan (and I have), but that is not the point. To me, it's akin to the big 3 U.S. auto makers now having to improve the quality and craftsmanship of their vehicles in order to compete with the imports. For years, they gave us less than their best because they knew that we would accept it. Well, now we know better and expect more from them. I'm saying that now that I know that TM doesn't give us their best, I'm not supporting them anymore. I know this will make no difference to them right now, but maybe one day they'll be in the same position as Government Motors and the others.

[Teamdata]

I am glad to see more and more OEM's are bringing forged irons and premiums drivers to the US market. It wasn't too many years ago that Callaway didn't offer a forged iron, now they have 3 models! You also have Titleist, Cobra and Adams on the forged iron bandwagon, and of couse always Mizuno. While not too many years ago TM had the premium forged irons on the market (i.e 300, TP CB/MB) they are now the kings of flashy, cheap, cast crap.

[phrantic]

[quote name='KYMAR' date='07 February 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1265583454' post='2234748']

The point is that they already produce these irons and simply choose not to offer them here. There is no additional tooling cost associated with irons you already make. So not sure how that would "blow the silver"
[/quote]

The point is that most people won't buy them here in the states.

[AcesAZ]

I only buy products I like anyways. Isnt that what most people do? If you want a nice forged iron then buy a mizzy or titty or like others said TM Japan, Plus I dont think your TM boycott will affect their bottom line very much.

[joey3108]

I hope i can share my opinions here about TM products!

As many of you know golf is my business, so I can't be a hater for sure....I just won't play and buy TM iron no matter which version. I may still play with their driver, but it has to be tour issue or tweaked big time.

I feel strange when retail (tp and standard version) and tour issue version are totally different (iron mostly), for most of you who never seen a tour version iron will not quite understand what i'm talking here. How many of you known B version iron? How many of you've seen them? how many of you hit them? FYI even the B version is a cast carbon steel.

Why do they have to make them different just to serve their tour players? Are retail version not good enough for them, other wise?.....why they have to be different?

It seems for the past few years the philosophy is changing, I feel like " Anything TM on the club head will sell anyway". Maybe be this is correct, but it seems they loosing ground on the quality or simply "produce them as cheap as possible because we can sell it anyway". Definitely it's business at the end of the day. However, I wouldn't be surprise they might go down if they can't keep up with the quality and produce a club for all kind of level without any differences between retail and tour issue other than how they build or tweak them for a specific tour players to their need.

Bare in mind, I'm saying all this because i do work on all products everyday (see, touch, feel, hit, tweak, etc....).

Again, this is just my 2 cents!

Joe

[BeBoP]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' date='08 February 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1265592845' post='2234993']
I hear what you guys are saying, but I think some of you (Billy Barou, Ronstars) are missing my point. I know that I could buy TM from Japan (and I have), but that is not the point. To me, it's akin to the big 3 U.S. auto makers now having to improve the quality and craftsmanship of their vehicles in order to compete with the imports. For years, they gave us less than their best because they knew that we would accept it. Well, now we know better and expect more from them. I'm saying that now that I know that TM doesn't give us their best, I'm not supporting them anymore. I know this will make no difference to them right now, but maybe one day they'll be in the same position as Government Motors and the others.
[/quote]

This is called "Consumer Advocacy". You believe you deserve better than what is offered when there are options available out there. Good call Ragamuffin. Just keep on speaking out, you may start a positive movement here

[The Sheepdog]

[quote]This is called "Consumer Advocacy". You believe you deserve better than what is offered when there are options available out there. Good call Ragamuffin. Just keep on speaking out, you may start a positive movement here [/quote]

Thanks for your support. Also to Mr. Kwok, it's nice to hear your opinion. With the amount of product that you've come across, I think everyone on this site will agree that your opinion is valuable.
I hope those like AcesAZ will take the time to actually read the arguments and understand the gist of them before they comment.
It's amazing, I honestly have a feeling of freedom knowing that I no longer have to keep drinking the TM kool-aid. AMEN!

[KintamaTP]

For them to offer their sirloin to Japan and feed us table scraps is demeaning. It lets them know they can get away with it, and makes the North American market look like a bunch of chumps.

 

It's ALWAYS been this way, since the beginning of time. You would've been killing yourself if you knew what kind of TOP QUALITY American and all foreign goods they were selling in Japan the 70's, 80's and 90's that you NEVER saw in the U.S. I mean serious top quality stuff, all the clubs, balls, equipment and accessory you can think of that far better, far more stylish, far cooler and far more EXPENSIVE - but they were some serious top quality stuff.

 

NOW, you just happen to be able to find out about it in an INSTANT thanks to the web, and your knowledge of ticking you off. So SWITCH OFF. Don't come to Golfwrx, don't go to TourSpecGolf, don't surf the web looking for what's different and available elsewhere. If you don't know, you'll be happier. Ignorance is bliss, man! LOL

 

I'm telling you, it's ALWAYS been that way. In GENERAL, the American consumers are not willing to pay more for something better, higher quality, something that is LIMITED EDITION never to be seen again, kind of stuff. And when I say IN GENERAL, I mean the level of quality expenditure is just not on the same level. Not even close. People in America are happy enough to get their generic items from MALLS and cheap online retailers so they can look like everybody else on TV, and that's it, whereas in Japan, people are savvy, they want the best, they want to feel like they are at the top, and are willing to pay the extra for it.

 

The TM sets in Japan do cost DOUBLE what you would pay for irons in the U.S. - look at the BRAND NEW items' prices - they may look cheaper, but they're not - because you're looking at STOCK, off-the-shelf set prices, and most of the time, they are 5-PW, not 3-PW. I don't want 5-PW, I want 3-PW, and I can't afford to pay $1600 for a set of 3-PW irons.

 

I went through the 70's, 80's and 90's travelling from Japan to Europe to the U.S. I've seen it all. I know what happened and what quality really means. Just the different electronic goods they had! The Walkmans! The cool portable CD players and home stereos! WOW! They had Car TV in the early 90's in Japan! Can you imagine?

 

Times are changing though - Globalization is making pricing very complicated, precisely for the reasons we're talking about here. Man how things have changed. It's amazing that you can just to go to a website like RAKUTEN and just buy the stuff in Japan from the U.S. and have them shipped, at extra cost, of course, but at least you can look around and actually buy the stuff in the comfort of your home in the U.S.!!!!!!!! Amazing.

 

At least you can buy the stuff, if you want. It's not like you can't. If you have the money, you can pay for it. You could even travel there, get fitted there, experience another culture while you're at it, get some life experience while you're at it, and buy some cool stuff. What's wrong with that?

 

But...... may be, in the very near future, it will be different. But then again, other companies like Bridgestone/ Tourstage and Mizuno (yes them too) and other companies have clubs they don't sell in the U.S. too, so you're boycotting them too? Even Titleist have stuff they only sell in Japan. Pretty soon you'll have nobody to play.

 

And I think to myself.......... what a wonderful world............

 

hahahaha

[The Sheepdog]

It's ALWAYS been this way, since the beginning of time. You would've been killing yourself if you knew what kind of TOP QUALITY American and all foreign goods they were selling in Japan the 70's, 80's and 90's that you NEVER saw in the U.S. I mean serious top quality stuff, all the clubs, balls, equipment and accessory you can think of that far better, far more stylish, far cooler and far more EXPENSIVE - but they were some serious top quality stuff.

 

NOW, you just happen to be able to find out about it in an INSTANT thanks to the web, and your knowledge of ticking you off. So SWITCH OFF. Don't come to Golfwrx, don't go to TourSpecGolf, don't surf the web looking for what's different and available elsewhere. If you don't know, you'll be happier. Ignorance is bliss, man! LOL

 

I'm telling you, it's ALWAYS been that way. In GENERAL, the American consumers are not willing to pay more for something better, higher quality, something that is LIMITED EDITION never to be seen again, kind of stuff. And when I say IN GENERAL, I mean the level of quality expenditure is just not on the same level. Not even close. People in America are happy enough to get their generic items from MALLS and cheap online retailers so they can look like everybody else on TV, and that's it, whereas in Japan, people are savvy, they want the best, they want to feel like they are at the top, and are willing to pay the extra for it.

 

The TM sets in Japan do cost DOUBLE what you would pay for irons in the U.S. - look at the BRAND NEW items' prices - they may look cheaper, but they're not - because you're looking at STOCK, off-the-shelf set prices, and most of the time, they are 5-PW, not 3-PW. I don't want 5-PW, I want 3-PW, and I can't afford to pay $1600 for a set of 3-PW irons.

 

I went through the 70's, 80's and 90's travelling from Japan to Europe to the U.S. I've seen it all. I know what happened and what quality really means. Just the different electronic goods they had! The Walkmans! The cool portable CD players and home stereos! WOW! They had Car TV in the early 90's in Japan! Can you imagine?

 

Times are changing though - Globalization is making pricing very complicated, precisely for the reasons we're talking about here. Man how things have changed. It's amazing that you can just to go to a website like RAKUTEN and just buy the stuff in Japan from the U.S. and have them shipped, at extra cost, of course, but at least you can look around and actually buy the stuff in the comfort of your home in the U.S.!!!!!!!! Amazing.

 

At least you can buy the stuff, if you want. It's not like you can't. If you have the money, you can pay for it. You could even travel there, get fitted there, experience another culture while you're at it, get some life experience while you're at it, and buy some cool stuff. What's wrong with that?

 

And I think to myself.......... what a wonderful world............

 

hahahaha

 

Great post! I definitely am only aware of this because of the internet, but unfortunately, I have a tough time "switching off". Thanks for the great info...

[esinger430]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' date='07 February 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1265577052' post='2234521']
[quote name='B Keller' date='07 February 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1265575699' post='2234472']
I largely agree with you, but I think we have done it to ourselves. There is a difference between the average American and Japanese consumer.

Look at the pricing of the equipment here and there. It is way higher there! Why? Because they demand a superior quality and are willing to pay for it.

Do we want high quality? Sure, as long as it costs the same as the regular stuff. That's why TM and the other OEM's market and develop the two lines completely differently. It's what "we" want.
[/quote]

Yah, I thought of that. I've bought TM irons from Tourspec golf in Japan and I really don't find them that much more expensive. The irons are all between $950 and $1050, not really more than you'd pay for a new set here. Also, the Japanese manufacturers do make some really expensive stuff, but the TM stuff isn't at that price point. What I'm saying is that manufactures like Titleist, Mizuno and Adams manage to make top quality forged designs and sell them to the U.S. market, why can't TM?
[/quote]

big difference between here and japan. japanese like quality, precision and most of all distance. remember many of them never get to see a golf course. there arent that many around to accomodate them. thats why they have 4,5 and 6 tier ranges. they like to see the ball fly high and long and they will pay for that. stopped buying american made equipment four years ago. the taylor made xr which is their premier driver sells for almost $900. well worth every nickel. if you want to buy a good set of japan made clubs look at miura, fourteen and tourstage. all three have irons to fit your budget. you could always contact joe kwok for more information on the subject.

[dlefty]

[quote name='joey3108' date='07 February 2010 - 08:59 PM' timestamp='1265597963' post='2235142']
I hope i can share my opinions here about TM products!

As many of you know golf is my business, so I can't be a hater for sure....I just won't play and buy TM iron no matter which version. [i][b]I may still play with their driver, but it has to be tour issue or tweaked big time.
[/b][/i]
Bare in mind, I'm saying all this because i do work on all products everyday (see, touch, feel, hit, tweak, etc....).

Again, this is just my 2 cents!

Joe
[/quote]

Joe......just wondering if you could elaborate on the part I highlighted. I completely understand what you are saying about the irons that can be so dramatically different between retail and tour. But curious as to what you are seeing / finding with the drivers? Quality control, materials, lack of performance (ball speed, etc.) vs. the tour issue drivers?

[joey3108]

[quote name='dlefty' date='07 February 2010 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1265601680' post='2235268']
[quote name='joey3108' date='07 February 2010 - 08:59 PM' timestamp='1265597963' post='2235142']
I hope i can share my opinions here about TM products!

As many of you know golf is my business, so I can't be a hater for sure....I just won't play and buy TM iron no matter which version. [i][b]I may still play with their driver, but it has to be tour issue or tweaked big time.
[/b][/i]
Bare in mind, I'm saying all this because i do work on all products everyday (see, touch, feel, hit, tweak, etc....).

Again, this is just my 2 cents!

Joe
[/quote]

Joe......just wondering if you could elaborate on the part I highlighted. I completely understand what you are saying about the irons that can be so dramatically different between retail and tour. But curious as to what you are seeing / finding with the drivers? Quality control, materials, lack of performance (ball speed, etc.) vs. the tour issue drivers?
[/quote]

I'm just talking about the specs consistency for a more consistent performance, plus fitted with shaft that i particularly like.

Plus lately i've seen tour only driver and FW.

[rainkingjr]

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. If Mizuno can sell the MP68 for $899 and Titleist can offer the 710CB and MB for $899, there is no reason why TM can't offer a top notch forged iron in the same price range. Maybe they need to stop dumping so much money into their staffers. The name of the game for them here is market saturation. I have always thought they made wonderful drivers. I actually game an R9. Their product cycle is ridiculous though.

[AcesAZ]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' date='07 February 2010 - 09:28 PM' timestamp='1265599711' post='2235213']
[quote]This is called "Consumer Advocacy". You believe you deserve better than what is offered when there are options available out there. Good call Ragamuffin. Just keep on speaking out, you may start a positive movement here [/quote]

Thanks for your support. Also to Mr. Kwok, it's nice to hear your opinion. With the amount of product that you've come across, I think everyone on this site will agree that your opinion is valuable.
I hope those like AcesAZ will take the time to actually read the arguments and understand the gist of them before they comment.
It's amazing, I honestly have a feeling of freedom knowing that I no longer have to keep drinking the TM kool-aid. AMEN!
[/quote]

I understand your point. My point is if you dont like what they produce then dont buy it! In fact you said that yourself! Go ahead and buy some TM Japan or Mizzy or Titty or Bridgestone or whatever. The GolfWRX population is a very small minority when talking overall club sales. Ask the average Joe 15 Capper if he can tell the difference between irons. Heck Im sure most dont even know what forged versus cast is or even care!

[KintamaTP]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' date='07 February 2010 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1265601108' post='2235254']
Great post! I definitely am only aware of this because of the internet, but unfortunately, I have a tough time "switching off". Thanks for the great info...
[/quote]


Yeah and what cracks me up even more about you, is that you're in CANADA!!!! You're [b][color="#00BFFF"]FROZEN[/color][/b] half the year! You don't even get to play that much! I play around 70 rounds a year, ALL YEAR, down here, man! LOL You don't even get to use your equipment half the time!

You thought looking at it through the Web was bad. Just wait till you actually TRAVEL to Japan. Then you'll lose your fricking mind, dude. Seriously. You said something about the cars over here? Do you even know what they sell in Japan when it comes to cars and electronics ? Seriously. They're keeping the best stuff in Japan, and it's not just golf stuff. It's EVERYTHING.
Examples:
http://toyota.jp/carlineup/index.html
http://www.nissan.co.jp/EN/lineup.html
http://www.sony.jp/
http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/products_home.html

[generalpatton]

[quote]Hey MODS let's get a new forum...Venting! Seems like a whole lot of this sort of thing on here daily and to save us that don't want to waste time with it, make a forum just for these people! Come on Adams!! Ya they make good stuff same as TM at least TM can keep paint on their clubs for more than a round!!! Haha move to japan if you want that stuff that bad bro [/quote]

+1000!!!

Definitely let's have a rants and raves forum where all the bashing threads can go, I get so tired of them. There are plenty of companies out there that sell forged irons in the US. If that's what you want, then go seek one out and let your heart be content. If it's TM forged irons you want, then you can have those too from Tourspec or one of the other companies that specialize in Asian market gear. I don't get what the problem is, it seems to me that today with the internet we can get our hands on almost any club we might want to and yet there's still someone who's unhappy enough to junk up the forum with a b*tch fest that TM doesn't sell some of their equipment in the US. It's always been that way the only difference is now you CAN have whatever you want. There's really no need to start a rant thread.