What Was Ben Hogan's Swing Speed?

[tembolo1284]

imagine these 6 chaps hanging around playing golf together. Talk about a solid bunch of golfers yikes.

Claude Harmon being Butch's father right?

[guisician]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1354626731' post='6016193']
imagine these 6 chaps hanging around playing golf together. Talk about a solid bunch of golfers yikes.

Claude Harmon being Butch's father right?
[/quote]

Yes. Also in the teaching ranks are Butch's younger brothers Craig, Bill & Dick as well as his son Claude Harmon III.

My work as a band leader brings me to plenty of country clubs in the NY area; the Winged Foot clubhouse has such a great old school atmosphere, you half expect to see Claude himself still walking the halls.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='guisician' timestamp='1354777995' post='6026203']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1354626731' post='6016193']
imagine these 6 chaps hanging around playing golf together. Talk about a solid bunch of golfers yikes.

Claude Harmon being Butch's father right?
[/quote]

Yes. Also in the teaching ranks are Butch's younger brothers Craig, Bill & Dick as well as his son Claude Harmon III.

My work as a band leader brings me to plenty of country clubs in the NY area; the Winged Foot clubhouse has such a great old school atmosphere, you half expect to see Claude himself still walking the halls.
[/quote]

maaaaaaaaan, I wish I could go there again. I played there once by fluke luck and it's my favorite place that i've played at so far.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='miamigolfman' timestamp='1327333505' post='4139363']
first, Hogan kind of did have a secret, that was brought up by Geoff in the Encyclopedia Texarcana ,

"the connection of the upper arms through impact, specifially the upper left arm. As the core unwinds around the left pivot point, the arms are pulled tight to the chest, which forces the butt of the shaft to the left thereby squaring the face. To quote Burke, "He always told me, you don't keep this arm (meaning left arm) on your chest long enough in the swing. You gotta' keep it tight to the chest and take it AROUND (unwinding) with your hips and shoulders (core)." He never mentions this in any of the legitimate Hogan sources."

Legitimate or not I'm not sure, but Geoff knows as much about Hogan and his swing as anybody.

Again distance was not Hogan's primary objective. I remember seeing the Shell Houston Open on the TV and recalling that Hogan DID NOT MISS ONE FAIRWAY. Precision was the key for Hogan.

In regards to distance I would only be guessing, just like EVERYONE here has been. ... What everyone forgets to account for is the incredible lag and compression Mr. Hogan created, coupled with his amazing ball striking, I would imagine that he always (99%) would hit the ball on the NUTS taking the most advantage of modern day golf club advantages.

Also in regards the post above with the New Paper Clip where Hogan avg. 335, you do have to account for the fact that he was 165 yds above- any math guys here might be able to figure out the distance without the height advantage, so the distance is skewed and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Would like to hear though when someone has some sound numbers, not just I have an old driver and some wound balls, because you (or anyone for that matter) could replicate the same ball contact and swing characteristics Mr. Hogan did
[/quote]

I love this post.

[tembolo1284]

took one of me persimmons out the other day. When i'd absolutely bomb a slight knuckle fade with it it would go 270 and change with roll using an old titleist balata 100.

Can't imagine what kind of clubhead speed and precision you need to hit these suckers 300+.

I'm about 114-116 mph. I'd guess 125+ then for 300+ right?

[Shade Ruff]

[quote name='sanderslongdrive' timestamp='1282355773' post='2652316']
Is it possible using footage from old tapes to scientifically calculate swing speed?

If so does anyone know BH's SS?

I would love to calculate how far he would likely hit using today's equipment.
[/quote]

This may be of some use to the discussion. I recently stumbled upon this chart from a January 10th, 1949 Time magazine cover story article on Ben Hogan.

Shade

[boatrightgolf7]

Looking at Greg Norman being 6 feet and very powerful averaging 275 off the tee it probably tells you Ben hogans ss was around 100 to 108 max with the driver, Greg Norman carried the ball 280 at times and has been touted as the longest persimmon driver on the pga tour with a ss around 113 tour average today. That's very fast with a heavy steel shafted persimmon wood otherwise Norman in his prime would be a 122+ guy easy today.

[stixman]

Comparisons are all well and good from different eras. While the persimmon headed golf driver remained very similar, there is a large difference in golf ball performance viz a viz mid '50s vs 1980s.

Knock back Norman's distance by 10% to take account of the ball and you probably have a better equivalence.

[dcrocketman]

There is a difference in equipment and training methods. Today's golfers are much better trained than previous as in every sport.

Hogan's mechanics are awesome,the standard and still marveled.

But technology and training methods improve performance .

It is difficult to compare ben hogan to tiger or Dustin . There training and physical attributes really far exceed anything hogan did as far as physical training

[talktoafade]

Is it possible using footage from old tapes to scientifically calculate swing speed?

 

If so does anyone know BH's SS?

 

I would love to calculate how far he would likely hit using today's equipment.

 

This may be of some use to the discussion. I recently stumbled upon this chart from a January 10th, 1949 Time magazine cover story article on Ben Hogan.

 

Shade

 

I play with a set of 1972 Hogan Apexes. Stock lofts, which I believe are the same as Hogan would have been playing in 1949. So I have some apples-to-apples yardage comparisons against myself, as opposed to anyone who plays more modern irons.

 

Two things:

 

1. These yardages make sense. I am an OK player -- lowest handicap I've ever consistently maintained is a 9, not a big guy (5'11" 155) and don't crush it -- and my avg yardages with those irons are 5-10 yards shorter than Hogan's.

2. I read one pro's comment -- maybe Sam Snead's -- that Hogan's "secret" was that he nearly always overclubbed. The Power Golf book gives min, avg and max distances with each club. He has 180 yds as max for his 5 iron, which is 1.5 to 2 clubs weaker in loft than any 5 iron made in the last 25 years...which means if he killed the ball on every full shot like modern players do and was playing with a modern ball, his avg 7 iron yardage would be 185+.

[BIG STU]

Is it possible using footage from old tapes to scientifically calculate swing speed?

 

If so does anyone know BH's SS?

 

I would love to calculate how far he would likely hit using today's equipment.

 

This may be of some use to the discussion. I recently stumbled upon this chart from a January 10th, 1949 Time magazine cover story article on Ben Hogan.

 

Shade

 

I play with a set of 1972 Hogan Apexes. Stock lofts, which I believe are the same as Hogan would have been playing in 1949. So I have some apples-to-apples yardage comparisons against myself, as opposed to anyone who plays more modern irons.

 

Two things:

 

1. These yardages make sense. I am an OK player -- lowest handicap I've ever consistently maintained is a 9, not a big guy (5'11" 155) and don't crush it -- and my avg yardages with those irons are 5-10 yards shorter than Hogan's.

2. I read one pro's comment -- maybe Sam Snead's -- that Hogan's "secret" was that he nearly always overclubbed. The Power Golf book gives min, avg and max distances with each club. He has 180 yds as max for his 5 iron, which is 1.5 to 2 clubs weaker in loft than any 5 iron made in the last 25 years...which means if he killed the ball on every full shot like modern players do and was playing with a modern ball, his avg 7 iron yardage would be 185+.

That would be just about right in regards to the club lofts. We have a fond saying on this side of the tracks that today's 6 iron is yesterday's 5 iron. The evidence does point that out on a loft and lie machine. Back in the day the demo club was a 5 iron now it was a 6 iron. Yesterday was a good example. On a 138 yard Par 3 at sea level elevated green with a 10-12 Mph wind in my face I hit a 1953 standard loft Hogan Precision 7 iron to 3 foot. My buddies hit everything from a modern Cobra CB 9 iron to a modern Nike 8 iron. All of us are decent players and hit the green. I was closest For me the number on the bottom of the club does not make 2 hoots . If I had hit my modern 2013 X forged in that case it would have been the 8 iron softly hit. If I had hit the modern 7 iron in that case I would have flew the green

[3jacker]

DJ would struggle to break 120 with Hogan's old heavy, short wooden driver.

 

117 then isn't the same when you consider the club being swung.

[Davewn]

DJ would struggle to break 120 with Hogan's old heavy, short wooden driver.

 

117 then isn't the same when you consider the club being swung.

 

No more than Hogan would struggle with DJ's 45 1/2" lightweight modern driver. Both would do fine in each other's shoes, given the time and inclination to adjust- your argument cuts both ways.

[dpb5031]

Every time this discussion comes up you hear about today's athletes being so much bigger, stronger, faster due to training methods, etc. Names like Tiger, DJ, Adam Scott, etc. are tossed around as examples.

 

I agree, that athletes in all sports are bigger, stronger, faster and overall better trained than in the past. Still, you have smaller built guys like JT, Rickie, Sergio, Rory (pre-muscles)and others who are not a whole lot bigger than Hogan. I don't think it's so much to do with size and physical training.

 

Swing mechanics are not much the mystery as they were back then. We have biomechanists, kinesiologists, 3d capture devices, Trackman, and swing gurus, etc., all helping optimize a player's potential. Back in Hogan's era it was trial and error while digging it out of the dirt. Add 460cc drivers, lightweight graphite shafts, and balls that don't curve as much, and today's players can go at it nearly 100%. Wasn't the case back in the day if you wanted to score.

 

My guess is Hogan would would be comparable to the guys I mentioned, easily capable of swinging today's drivers at ~120 mph.

[SteveNZ]

Every time this discussion comes up you hear about today's athletes being so much bigger, stronger, faster due to training methods, etc. Names like Tiger, DJ, Adam Scott, etc. are tossed around as examples.

 

I agree, that athletes in all sports are bigger, stronger, faster and overall better trained than in the past. Still, you have smaller built guys like JT, Rickie, Sergio, Rory (pre-muscles)and others who are not a whole lot bigger than Hogan. I don't think it's so much to do with size and physical training.

 

Swing mechanics are not much the mystery as they were back then. We have biomechanists, kinesiologists, 3d capture devices, Trackman, and swing gurus, etc., all helping optimize a player's potential. Back in Hogan's era it was trial and error while digging it out of the dirt. Add 460cc drivers, lightweight graphite shafts, and balls that don't curve as much, and today's players can go at it nearly 100%. Wasn't the case back in the day if you wanted to score.

 

My guess is Hogan would would be comparable to the guys I mentioned, easily capable of swinging today's drivers at ~120 mph.

 

You could throw in Snead and early Nicklaus too. They would hit it MILES with today’s equipment.

[TheBenTDaniel]

Reviving a very old topic, but this is one of the top results on Google about Hogan's ss. I'm not sure what year it was, but Hogan went to a Spalding facility and had his clubhead speed measured, it was 132mph, the fastest on the tour at the time.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/if-ben-hogan-met-trackman

 

Nicklaus had a ss of 118mph at the age of 58, which was the first time it was measured. It's estimated he was 130mph+ in his prime.

 

Almost all the distance gains from the top players are equipment and ball related at this point. Maybe that'll change in the future, but even Bryson's top ss on tour is 138mph, so we're not quite there yet.

[RobotDoctor]

What a lot of younger players don't realize how much harder it was to swing a 43" persimmon driver than the  current 45"+ graphite shafted metal/composite drivers today.  First the accuracy needed in striking the ball was minimal, about the size of a dime.  A controlled swing was needed to achieve consistent and long strikes.  Anyone with a swing speed exceeding 110mph with a 43" persimmon driver could really hit the ball great distances compared to the field and the courses at the time.  Exceeding 120mph and you'd be among the longest on tour.  If it was true that Mr. Hogan exceeded 130mph and that would put him in the category of at top tier of distance.  Of course that was never Mr. Hogan's game.  His game was accuracy and strategy.  He could dismantle a golf course with precision.  It is too bad he wasn't as great a putter as he was a ball striker.  If he could putt like Ben Crenshaw or Tiger Woods Mr. Hogan would have been even greater than he was.  Mr. Hogan was among the best ball strikers that has ever played the game.

[TheBenTDaniel]

On 10/17/2021 at 8:46 AM, RobotDoctor said:

What a lot of younger players don't realize how much harder it was to swing a 43" persimmon driver than the  current 45"+ graphite shafted metal/composite drivers today.  First the accuracy needed in striking the ball was minimal, about the size of a dime.  A controlled swing was needed to achieve consistent and long strikes.  Anyone with a swing speed exceeding 110mph with a 43" persimmon driver could really hit the ball great distances compared to the field and the courses at the time.  Exceeding 120mph and you'd be among the longest on tour.  If it was true that Mr. Hogan exceeded 130mph and that would put him in the category of at top tier of distance.  Of course that was never Mr. Hogan's game.  His game was accuracy and strategy.  He could dismantle a golf course with precision.  It is too bad he wasn't as great a putter as he was a ball striker.  If he could putt like Ben Crenshaw or Tiger Woods Mr. Hogan would have been even greater than he was.  Mr. Hogan was among the best ball strikers that has ever played the game.

 

I remember Ben Hogan describing his driving, saying that once he got to the point of throwing the club (basically immediately after the initial hip turn/lower body movement) he was trying to throw it as hard as he possibly could.

 

The fact that he could do that with the inhuman level of consistency he had, especially with the old equipment, is just wild to think about.

[keith ballantyne]

it is stated that the usga tested hogans 1853 driver at G2  the heavest ever recorded. what does that say about ss