Comparing hogan jack tiger

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1328041180' post='4186227']
right now? he's at 44.75 inches....even tried one for a bit that was 45.5 inches...but was too wild so went back to 44.75.

Had 44.5 for a long time.
[/quote]

Just my 2 cents...was MOI-matching my driver to my already MOI-matched set of irons and I discovered that my driver at 45 inches has too much swing weight/MOI. Explains why with exactly same swing, my driver hits the ball right, push rights. The face isn't closing at the same rate.

When I cut it to 44.5 inches, the MOI is still more than the moi of my irons, but now very close. I now hit it straighter with sometimes slight acceptable pushes.

This also explains why Hogan can afford to have super heavy driver. It's only 43 inches, so the extra weight won't make the MOI go higher than he wants compared to his irons. So he didn't have to change his driver swing compared to irons swing that much to compensate for extra MOI.

However, I lost around 15 yards....lol. Darn... That's a lot, one club difference.

[tembolo1284]

I'm a fan of a heavy driver. E0 for me. Any idea what Hogan's driver swingweight was?

I'm sure he was swinging a sledgehammer! Boom!

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1328128873' post='4192887']
I'm a fan of a heavy driver. E0 for me. Any idea what Hogan's driver swingweight was?

I'm sure he was swinging a sledgehammer! Boom!
[/quote]

In his book, Vasquez says its D2.5. Don't know the actual weight though.

Yours is E0? Can you explain the effects on your swing? What can you do now, what can't you do if not that SW-heavy?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1328180985' post='4196325']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1328128873' post='4192887']
I'm a fan of a heavy driver. E0 for me. Any idea what Hogan's driver swingweight was?

I'm sure he was swinging a sledgehammer! Boom!
[/quote]

In his book, Vasquez says its D2.5. Don't know the actual weight though.

Yours is E0? Can you explain the effects on your swing? What can you do now, what can't you do if not that SW-heavy?
[/quote]


Just feel it better. I like my tennis rackets heavy, and same with my clubs. When the clubs aren't very high swingweight it feels like a toothpick and i'm all over the place.

[XJared]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1319811286' post='3731041']
Beast is right. Look at the driver swing! Has to be most "animalistic" I've seen from a pro. Great action !

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-qQhMQZMo&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player[/url]
[/quote]


Off topic, but with the big turn, wide arc, left heel up, does that video remind anyone else of Bubba?

[tembolo1284]

Jack is still the man I say.

[Pinsplitter59]

JD3 funny you use the word "animalistic".
watching 1977 Open Championship recently,
Nicklaus in 6 inch lush green rough on far right of 18th fairway after a driver off the tee.
Watson already inside 2 feet and one shot ahead.
Commentator expressing grave doubts about Nicklaus's ability to progress the ball very far.
Jack smashes it and it finds the green just.
Commentator is aghast and says "That's the most animalistic golf swing I have ever seen".
Sounds great when you hear it from one of those old school British commentators.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='XJared' timestamp='1328496708' post='4221183']
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1319811286' post='3731041']
Beast is right. Look at the driver swing! Has to be most "animalistic" I've seen from a pro. Great action !

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-qQhMQZMo&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player[/url]
[/quote]


Off topic, but with the big turn, wide arc, left heel up, does that video remind anyone else of Bubba?
[/quote]


It's more like...Bubba's loosey goosey pounding the ball swing kinda reminds me of jack!

[dlygrisse]

Jack had the best career no doubt, consistency, longevity, always in contention. Tiger will end his career with more total tour victories than Jack, but Jack played a very limited schedule most of his career, passing Sneads record for total wins did not seem to be on his radar, majors did. My guess is Tiger will eventually pass Sneads record of total victories and end his career with around 90 wins, which of course would be impressive.

Tiger from late 1999 through 2001 was probably better but Tiger's career has been up and down, peaks and valleys, the only way Tiger surpasses Jack in majors is if he has one more BIG peak. Hogan in 1953 was probably better than Jack, as well as Hogan right before the accident. Nelson in '45 probably had the best season ever, as well as Jones in 1930.

All time winning percentage is not relevant to this conversation IMO, Jack played many tournaments later in his career more for nostalgia, Tiger's winning percentage is dropping, and will continue to do so for the next 10 -20 years or so. Fact of the matter is many golfers played at Jack's level from time to time, but Jack did it for 20 years, really from the mid sixties till the early 80's then the Masters in '86. He also contended in majors into his 50's.

Tiger still has a chance BUT right now he just looks like one of the best 25 current players in the world, not one of the top 2 of all-time.

[b]Tiger is competing against more GOOD players than Jack, Jack competed against more GREAT players than Tiger.[/b]

[farmer]

You could say early 60's on. Jack went for years during his prime playing only 12-15 tournaments per year. I agree, more good players today, fewer great players. In Jack's day, the 110th player on the money list was folding shirts in a pro shop.

[puttingmatt]

As records go, Nicklaus is still the benchmark !!!!

[dap]

More depth and good players will lessen the number of "great" players.

Guys like Trevino,Watson and Ballesteros might have 2 or 3 less major wins because they were taken away by a good player having a hot week.Even Jack might have had a few majors stolen.

Players like Mickelson,Singh and Harrington might have been "great" players if they played in Jack's era.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1337481414' post='4944240']
More depth and good players will lessen the number of "great" players.

Guys like Trevino,Watson and Ballesteros might have 2 or 3 less major wins because they were taken away by a good player having a hot week.Even Jack might have had a few majors stolen.

Players like Mickelson,Singh and Harrington might have been "great" players if they played in Jack's era.
[/quote]

good point dap. I agree.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1337720611' post='4960052']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1337481414' post='4944240']
More depth and good players will lessen the number of "great" players.

Guys like Trevino,Watson and Ballesteros might have 2 or 3 less major wins because they were taken away by a good player having a hot week.Even Jack might have had a few majors stolen.

Players like Mickelson,Singh and Harrington might have been "great" players if they played in Jack's era.
[/quote]

good point dap. I agree.
[/quote]
Hogan had majors taken from him by Nelson and Sneed..and vice versa.
Palmer had majors taken from him by Jack and Casper
Jack had majors taken from him by Trevino and Watson
Norman had majors taken from him by everyone

One could make the argument that players like Weiskopf would have been better in todays game not having to deal with the likes of Jack, Lee,
Player, Miller etc.

It comes down to ....do you know how to win or not? the all-time greats know how to win.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1337722992' post='4960294']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1337720611' post='4960052']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1337481414' post='4944240']
More depth and good players will lessen the number of "great" players.

Guys like Trevino,Watson and Ballesteros might have 2 or 3 less major wins because they were taken away by a good player having a hot week.Even Jack might have had a few majors stolen.

Players like Mickelson,Singh and Harrington might have been "great" players if they played in Jack's era.
[/quote]

good point dap. I agree.
[/quote]
Hogan had majors taken from him by Nelson and Sneed..and vice versa.
Palmer had majors taken from him by Jack and Casper
Jack had majors taken from him by Trevino and Watson
Norman had majors taken from him by everyone

One could make the argument that players like Weiskopf would have been better in todays game not having to deal with the likes of Jack, Lee,
Player, Miller etc.

It comes down to ....do you know how to win or not? the all-time greats know how to win.
[/quote]


yap, also true.

[BladedAlbatross]

All greats at their prime, with their best games, with the best technology, and assuming everyone considered was used to said technology...Jack wins. Jones, Snead, Hogan, Arnie, and Tiger all tie for second. And then it's a toss up.

Jack is the strongest winner golf has seen.

[tembolo1284]

So Jack is still the man in the end.

[juststeve]

Several Years ago Golf Magazine did an article naming the 10 greatest players of all time. Of five listed, Palmer, Casper, Player, Trevino, and Watson, Nicklaus played against all of them in the respective Primes. Tiger Woods has played against none of the listed players. Even if Tiger were to pass Jack's major championship total, you need to consider the competition. Jack is the mnan.

Steve

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1355497912' post='6067823']
Several Years ago Golf Magazine did an article naming the 10 greatest players of all time. Of five listed, Palmer, Casper, Player, Trevino, and Watson, Nicklaus played against all of them in the respective Primes. Tiger Woods has played against none of the listed players. Even if Tiger were to pass Jack's major championship total, you need to consider the competition. Jack is the mnan.

Steve
[/quote]

Why do you think that is? The fields being as deep as ever..you'd think it's harder to seperate yourself from the pack and so the love gets spread out more? Where 9 majors back then is like 4-5 today? What do you think?

Is/Was tiger that good or is it just that they don't make em like they used to?

[juststeve]

tembolo:

My guess is that the money distribution on the modern tour allows too many guys to make a great deal of money without even winning ordinary events, much less majors or multiple majors. In Jack's prime you had to be a winner even a major winner to make much more than a successful car salesman. That produced more tough hard guys who could win. Just a guess though.

Steve

[bscinstnct]

Numbers don't lie, Jack is King of the Hill

But, plop Jack and Tiger down together at the same age

In either Jacks era or Tigers era

Who wins more Majors?

[jtotto83]

I'm a Ft. Worth boy, love Hogan. People forget he could never beat Nelson until after he retired...Nelson might be most underrated player out of the games greats.

[tembolo1284]

I always wonder why Nelson retired so damn early.

[geesecougar2]

Deeper fields of today making Tiger greater, or more multiple major champions as direct competitors making Jack greater? Although I believe it to be the former, it is, in the end, a chicken or the egg question. Because, while the latter may be true, it could also be shallower fields making it easier to win majors.

One thing though, we can try to look at it from a stats perspective. And one interesting look is if we were to take the single most important metric to measure a golfer's ability, it would be GIR. And if we look at the GIR numbers from when they first started tracking them (1980), we can see that the top tier players in terms of GIR have performed more or less the same, every year coming in at right around 70%-72%. It is probably reasonable to assume, given 30 years of data, that this is the pattern we would see going back further than 1980, that the ceiling for GIR is right around 72%.

The thing is, if it is a given that today's fields are in fact deeper, the question is, were those elite players that Jack faced in fact "greater" than those faced by Tiger? Not according to GIR, which implies that in terms of golfing ability they were pretty much on par with today's elite players.

Not a perfect analysis, but food for thought.....

[tembolo1284]

nice post geesecougar2. I'm also curious if putts per green in regulation has changed much over time...particularly with the greens being so diff over time.

[geesecougar2]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1355865411' post='6087467']
nice post geesecougar2. I'm also curious if putts per green in regulation has changed much over time...particularly with the greens being so diff over time.
[/quote]

Yeah, it's a problem because GIR putting stats only go back to 2002. If there were more stats available going further back we could probably arrive at a more definitive answer. However it is amazing how many greens Jack hit even into the tail end of his career.

But at the end of the day, I think any player on the Mt. Rushmore of golf (Jones, Hogan, Nicklaus, Woods) can beat any other player on Mt. Rushmore on any given Sunday. Like I said earlier in the thread, it probably comes down to course, weather, setup, and luck (namely, draining bombs and holing pitches). I mean, isn't it pointless to ask whether Alexander or Genghis Khan was the greater conquerer, or whether Augustus or Charlemagne was the greater emperor?

But for now, I will defer to the words of the great Billy Casper:

[url="http://youtu.be/JtUjBHFM7uQ?t=1m34s"]http://youtu.be/JtUjBHFM7uQ?t=1m34s[/url]

Edit: Embedding not working but Casper speaks at 1:34

[guisician]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1355850052' post='6086151']
I always wonder why Nelson retired so damn early.
[/quote]

As far as I've read, his lifelong dream was to have a ranch and golf was very much a way to finance the dream. Unlike Hogan, he wasn't a big practicer and didn't thrive on the competition and grind of the tour. In fact, he always fought nerves & a nervous stomach in particular. Once he had enough money, it was time to move on, buy the land and cattle and, with his wife by his side, become successful at ranching as well.

[tembolo1284]

So I read this thread again...Jack is still the Man. Hehe.

Tried to slap around some persimmon heads with balata today. I sucked. Jack meanwhile is carrying it 300 yards with one.

Don't I feel like a loser.

[guisician]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1356040973' post='6097401']
So I read this thread again...Jack is still the Man. Hehe.

Tried to slap around some persimmon heads with balata today. I sucked. Jack meanwhile is carrying it 300 yards with one.

Don't I feel like a loser.
[/quote]

Ah, but losers don't shoot par for 9 holes & you did; nice! I have a feeling next time there'll be even more MacGregor & Texan swings taken (and I'll try and hold up my end a bit better).

[tembolo1284]

Ah that Texan! One day a Texan will be mine...oh yes....it will be mine!