Who Is Turned Off By Taylormade?

[cardia10]

In the last 3 or 4 years, this site has changed dramatically in terms of membership and sponsorship. It seems we used to be a place that supported the little guy or the underdog. Now our membership contests are posted on every site on the internet and I would bet we have more 80 year old grandmas joining for the free contests than a depends forum. Growth will always happen, good or bad, and it our responsibility to see that it happens for the better. I'm sure the large corporate sponsorships and trips are good for the cash flow of the site and help provide all the awesome coverage of tournaments, but it has directly swayed the honest discussion of what this site was built on, golf and golf clubs. I still love the site, but I now take a little less stock in each review unless it is a long time member or a member who hasn't been swayed by a free trip.

[MtlJeff]

I think we've probably covered the OEM trips enough so i won't go on about those LOL

But my main argument in all of this over the years is the potential this great site has to provide completely differentiated reviews. We crap on the GD Hotlist like it's going out of style and as well we should. It gives people NOTHING of value really except vague unspecific comments. This site could lead the way in club testing with the resources we have. Testing clubs with the same specs against each other, giving readers the data based reviews we accuse GD of not doing. We could do our own hot list. We already have club testers take part in reviews where they get to choose their own specs. It would be great if they could test them against other new clubs and provide data. You have 8-10 guys doing this and that gives us something. Like i said earlier what if 8 of 10 guys prefer the Rocketbladez to the Xhot irons? Doesn't that mean something? Couldn't we do like a "Golfwrx 3 wood shootout" and have multiple people compare the Xhot to the Stage 2? Would OEMs sign up for this? (i'm not sure but maybe?)

Mark Crossfield's JPX825 versus Bladez test was a huge thread here. And in made me think: Why the heck is Mark Crossfield doing tests like this and we are not? This is the best golf site on the internet, it really is. People should be coming [i]here [/i]for that kind of testing

[jurr80]

I agree wholeheartedly!

Crossfield went for the straight scientific jugular on that Rocketbladez test.

It has to be hard for a manufacturer after a certain point.
You know that there are only certain things you can do with metals and lofts.
You have to sell a new brand constantly (or do you?) to keep the masses coming.

You're selling to two groups:
1.) performance guys - they want the longest and best clubs to enhance their games. They think that this year's club is THAT much better than last year's.
2.) show-offs - these guys buy a new car every couple of years, and that same concept is practiced with their clubs. They have to have the R1 because it is the latest thing on television.

I wonder how many companies would benefit from unveiling a supremely BAD a** set of golf clubs that are just flat out transcendent.
This driver or iron set is just amazing, and they can continuously sell the set over years because it is just THAT good, and the price remains fixed. Girls love the classic Louis Vuitton purse, and it doesn't get tweaked too much because it is of superior quality, everyone knows it, and the cost is stable.

I think it turns into a circus act when you laud your RBZ driver as the best, then turn right around and say that the R1 is THAT much better. I mean, come on, guys. It is insulting.

At the end of the day, it's the swing. That is why you can usually tell a really good golfer by seeing a couple of well-worn wedges with newer grips on them. These guys KNOW how to get that club to do whatever they need, and that is the goal at the end of the day.

Put the ball in the hole.

This site would be well served to remain an outpost of unbiased reviews based on SCIENCE.

If the 712 is better than the 710, give me some proof.
If Rocketbladez are "longer" irons than competitors, tell me WHY.
Is it the engineering of the parts, or is it simply that the set was tweaked to longer lengths and crazy lofts?

The money that an OEM puts into the site or the perks they throw out should have NOTHING to do with it.
Now, if they bring you in, outfit you with clubs, and the clubs blow your mind, then give a strong positive review.

Half of the significance of a club towards performance is look and feel. It's mental.
If you jump out with claims of increased distance or workability, though, we better have some numbers to prove that.

[Imp]

A few points if I may...
[quote name='jurr80' timestamp='1359913824' post='6355403']

Crossfield went for the straight scientific jugular on that Rocketbladez test.
[/quote]What's funny is the 'science' of that test was missing. Stuff that matters to the true GWRX ho. All he did was compare distances of the lofts. Math tells us that wow, same loft, same balls, same distance. Almost any monkey with a camera, balls and range could come up with the same realization.

It's the other details that were left out, stuff that real Hos prefer to know, that call into question the validity of the "science".

Members here could easily do many different tests given time and access to the materials. I'd love to be one such person. What precludes many from assisting is a) mid teens capper, b) it's winter c) I sit behind a desk all day in a non golf related job. Read: I don't have the access to the matierals/range/trackman, etc... If I did have access, I'd be there on weekend and nights putting this stuff together. I have a BS degree in Video Production and I develop interactive training videos. I can make it happen and get it on the web. However, the ranges around here are closed for the season, and at that, don't bring in the $$ to support trackmen/flightscope for general use.

I could easly whip up a series online that each ho wants/craves to see datawise, however, being a mid capper, I'm not the best guy for the job to be swinging the stick. I'd love to have someone to work with that is, but this is Southern New England and I don't have easy access to them. Maybe I could cajoile Billy Andrade or Brad Faxon into doing a weekly series? (They both are from my area and Titleist is 20 min down the road too). I did find someone in the area with a Trackman and will be calling them today. Maybe they'd be interested? Who knows. I will ask. The other thing is that all of these clubs came out when a majority of the us goes into hybernation. It’ll be a few more weeks and I’m sure the testing will be more conclusive. But that doesn’t help the immediate gratification of the users.


Thirdly, welcome to the 2nd iteration of the new media age. New Media started with the internet. People could get information to the masses and read up any time day or night. Social media has brought the internet into their teenage years, where everyone could have an option and share it as fact. The reader is the one responsible to determine what’s real, what’s fake, and find the middle ground and either accept or dismiss the claims. More tools are at our disposal now more than ever where the little guy can be heard, and then flamed for being a fanboi, just because they have, dear God, an opinion.

It’s those that can filter through/ignore the crap and make up their own mind that provide contribution to this ever growing internet community that is GolfWRX.

What brings this board down isn’t the people giving their reviews/feedback, it’s the users that constantly try to make themselves feel bigger by complaining about things that don’t make a difference in their own lives… by believing it’s their duty, their God given right, to negatively and incessantly complain about certain manufacturers and post in every damn thread about how something that brand XYZ does, offers, sells…. sucks.

It’s not the MFRs that are bringing the site down. It’s the complainers. And they take it upon themselves to repost the same information in every single thread that appears about the manufacturer without any data to back up their claim, or refute the review that the person is providing.

Before posting, before responding, one should ask themselves “What value does my response give to the community?” Facts, supporting data, objective responses are what can help this community grow.

I’d like to see less complaints against ANY AND ALL manufacturers on this forum. Let people review the stuff and give their feedback. The threads go to crap when someone steps in and says “but their XYZ sucks”. If the MFRs want to have some go on trips, good for them. Complaining about these manufacturers is sour grapes.

Get back to the “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all” days. You don’t like it? Fine. Does it affect life that much that one has to incessantly complain about things at every opportunity? I doubt it. Support the things you love. Don’t like it? Ignore it. Move on to the next thread. Be the bigger person.

If something is FACTUALLY wrong, I would want to hear it. However, when subjectivity comes into play (colors, patterns, marketing, etc…) complaining about it is simply pathetic.

I feel sorry that ones life is that bad that all one can do to contribute is consistently denounce everything one company does like a personal crusade.

--kC

[Big Ben]

Imp, I agree with some of your content but not all, this is a golf forum and people with minds are aloud to respond how they see fit without fear of being told ones life is bad no? Commenting on marketing or branding is part of GOLF therefore it will always be discussed, you aren't happy with Crossfields review and you commented on it without offering any substance to refute his claims, what's the difference? So I'm trying to understand your position, you want all threads to be full of suger and spice without any debate regarding substance? Pure fluff with everyone patting each other on the back and the OEM's smiling ear to ear? How in the world would that create any education? I assume you are referring to me since I begun this thread when referring to negative comments however if you read my posts closely they are all asking questions, if this makes my life somehow "bad" I'm not sure how to respond. If you read this entire thread it's full of well thought out and insightful posts and personally think its been a great read with zero negativity discussing a sensitive topic...BB

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Shrapnac' timestamp='1359769218' post='6347039']
Can't say I've had sexual stirrings either way for TaylorMade. Golf clubs don't get me all hot and bothered.
[/quote]

You should go to the doc and get your pulse checked. Golf clubs should cause a stirring in your loins.

Esp ones with a black matte finish mmmmmmmmmmmm. Oh! Unless it's a PING club. Icky.

[Imp]

[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1359997119' post='6360827']
Imp, I agree with some of your content but not all, this is a golf forum and people with minds are aloud to respond how they see fit without fear of being told ones life is bad no? Commenting on marketing or branding is part of GOLF therefore it will always be discussed, you aren't happy with Crossfields review and you commented on it without offering any substance to refute his claims, what's the difference? [/quote]Which thread? That video has been posted in every TM thread that mentions the new irons (essentially by people that don't particularly appreciate TM, done in a "SEE I TOLD YOU SO" type mentality. In some of the earlier ones, I do specifically mention what's missing.

[quote]So I'm trying to understand your position, you want all threads to be full of suger and spice without any debate regarding substance? Pure fluff with everyone patting each other on the back and the OEM's smiling ear to ear? How in the world would that create any education?[/quote]Refute opinions with facts, not facts with opinons.

[QUOTE] I assume you are referring to me since I begun this thread when referring to negative comments however if you read my posts closely they are all asking questions, if this makes my life somehow "bad" I'm not sure how to respond...BB[/quote]More of a general "to the reader". Everyone, including me, not only yourself.

--kC

[idrive]

I don't know if it's turned off or just really annoyed.

If I say that in a TM thread and try and offer why, I am flamed to death.

"I gained 30 yards with the R1" Seriously???? Question that and you're a hater.
That's when you stop reading which keeps me from finishing any thread that
has a TM review in it.

I think it's the fan boys that are driving a lot of us even further from them. These guys returning
from their trips are all but unbearable.

Independent testing..... hhhmmmmmmmm I have been looking for something to do....

[Big Ben]

1.) He offered a simple video with his findings, like you said let the observer decide, why does it bother you when it's posted? If you don't like it be the bigger man and move on.
2.) So the OEM's marketing is FACT and any/all WRX feedback is opinion? Can't separate opinion and fact from debate.
3.) referring to anyone as having a bad life because they have passion for golf weakens your position.

I appreciate your feedback Imp and respect your opinions...BB

[Big Ben]

[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1359999343' post='6361043']
I don't know if it's turned off or just really annoyed.

If I say that in a TM thread and try and offer why, I am flamed to death.

"I gained 30 yards with the R1" Seriously???? Question that and you're a hater.
That's when you stop reading which keeps me from finishing any thread that
has a TM review in it.

I think it's the fan boys that are driving a lot of us even further from them. These guys returning
from their trips are all but unbearable.

Independent testing..... hhhmmmmmmmm I have been looking for something to do....
[/quote]I agree 100% idrive...BB

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1359988506' post='6359993']
A few points if I may...
[quote name='jurr80' timestamp='1359913824' post='6355403']

Crossfield went for the straight scientific jugular on that Rocketbladez test.
[/quote]What's funny is the 'science' of that test was missing. Stuff that matters to the true GWRX ho. All he did was compare distances of the lofts. Math tells us that wow, same loft, same balls, same distance. Almost any monkey with a camera, balls and range could come up with the same realization.

It's the other details that were left out, stuff that real Hos prefer to know, that call into question the validity of the "science".

Members here could easily do many different tests given time and access to the materials. I'd love to be one such person. What precludes many from assisting is a) mid teens capper, b) it's winter c) I sit behind a desk all day in a non golf related job. Read: I don't have the access to the matierals/range/trackman, etc... If I did have access, I'd be there on weekend and nights putting this stuff together. I have a BS degree in Video Production and I develop interactive training videos. I can make it happen and get it on the web. However, the ranges around here are closed for the season, and at that, don't bring in the $$ to support trackmen/flightscope for general use.

I could easly whip up a series online that each ho wants/craves to see datawise, however, being a mid capper, I'm not the best guy for the job to be swinging the stick. I'd love to have someone to work with that is, but this is Southern New England and I don't have easy access to them. Maybe I could cajoile Billy Andrade or Brad Faxon into doing a weekly series? (They both are from my area and Titleist is 20 min down the road too). I did find someone in the area with a Trackman and will be calling them today. Maybe they'd be interested? Who knows. I will ask. The other thing is that all of these clubs came out when a majority of the us goes into hybernation. It’ll be a few more weeks and I’m sure the testing will be more conclusive. But that doesn’t help the immediate gratification of the users.


Thirdly, welcome to the 2nd iteration of the new media age. New Media started with the internet. People could get information to the masses and read up any time day or night. Social media has brought the internet into their teenage years, where everyone could have an option and share it as fact. The reader is the one responsible to determine what’s real, what’s fake, and find the middle ground and either accept or dismiss the claims. More tools are at our disposal now more than ever where the little guy can be heard, and then flamed for being a fanboi, just because they have, dear God, an opinion.

It’s those that can filter through/ignore the crap and make up their own mind that provide contribution to this ever growing internet community that is GolfWRX.

What brings this board down isn’t the people giving their reviews/feedback, it’s the users that constantly try to make themselves feel bigger by complaining about things that don’t make a difference in their own lives… by believing it’s their duty, their God given right, to negatively and incessantly complain about certain manufacturers and post in every damn thread about how something that brand XYZ does, offers, sells…. sucks.

It’s not the MFRs that are bringing the site down. It’s the complainers. And they take it upon themselves to repost the same information in every single thread that appears about the manufacturer without any data to back up their claim, or refute the review that the person is providing.

Before posting, before responding, one should ask themselves “What value does my response give to the community?” Facts, supporting data, objective responses are what can help this community grow.

I’d like to see less complaints against ANY AND ALL manufacturers on this forum. Let people review the stuff and give their feedback. The threads go to crap when someone steps in and says “but their XYZ sucks”. If the MFRs want to have some go on trips, good for them. Complaining about these manufacturers is sour grapes.

Get back to the “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all” days. You don’t like it? Fine. Does it affect life that much that one has to incessantly complain about things at every opportunity? I doubt it. Support the things you love. Don’t like it? Ignore it. Move on to the next thread. Be the bigger person.

If something is FACTUALLY wrong, I would want to hear it. However, when subjectivity comes into play (colors, patterns, marketing, etc…) complaining about it is simply pathetic.

I feel sorry that ones life is that bad that all one can do to contribute is consistently denounce everything one company does like a personal crusade.

--kC
[/quote]

I respect your opinion imp but to be honest I don't agree with you on this. I liked crossfields test, i thought it was well done. I think the problem isnt so much the "haters", but the people who label anyone with something negative to say about something a "hater" simply because they don't share their zeal for the product. Look at the JDM forum and how hostile it is not to people who actually "hate" JDM gear but to those who dare suggest that it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I believe pretty strongly that if you hit something and "don't have anything nice to say about it" you SHOULD post your experience. That way people get the whole story and not just a bunch of fluff.

[Chief Illiniwek]

I love the idea of independent tests, complete with solid data from trackman, being conducted by WRX'ers. But you mentioned you're a mid capper and instead was going to try to find a better swing, like Faxon. I say get swings from all over the board. A pro, scratch, 5, 10, and so on. That's be awesome!

[geauxWRX]

BB, I am sure he was talking about me since I am trying to cut back on fanboy kool-aid

[Imp]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1360004529' post='6361525']
I believe pretty strongly that if you hit something and "don't have anything nice to say about it" you SHOULD post your experience. That way people get the whole story and not just a bunch of fluff.
[/quote]Read the 2nd part of want I mentioned, and let it sink in. There's a difference in how one develops and posts counterpoint, vs 'you're wrong and they suck because ____[u](insert subjective opinion here)[/u]____'.

I belong to a forum where moderators are held in high regard because they watch out for this kind of thing. If you don't add substance, your post is deleted. (i.e. "XYZ sucks because I don't like the pattern or color.") The company doesn't suck because of it. The poster is using subjective data to paint the company. Then, others come along, see only "XYZ sucks..." not reading the rest and pass that on.

As someone said in another thread I read today "This isn't my first rodeo". I've been an active and prolific member of various internet communities since the mid/late 90s. The 'haters' are really easy to spot because they cannot offer up a real reason WHY something sucks more than "I don't like it". Does that add substance to the thread? No. Does't even help the company either, because they also know that not everyone likes everything. "If you had everything... where you would put it?" - Stephen Wright

The same poster saying they don't like the colors? Patterns? In every thread about the subject? There's no need for that. I think you can agree. In the very least say WHY you don't like it. "I don't like yellow" is more valid than "I don't like it" or "it's dumb". At that, say your peace. No need to keep saying it over and over and over again in the same thread.

Some people are half full types. Some are half empty types. I'm the "It's completely full, 1/2 with air, 1/2 with beer" type... "oops, now it's 100% air." *burp*

--kC

[Myherobobhope]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1360004669' post='6361555']
I love the idea of independent tests, complete with solid data from trackman, being conducted by WRX'ers. But you mentioned you're a mid capper and instead was going to try to find a better swing, like Faxon. I say get swings from all over the board. A pro, scratch, 5, 10, and so on. That's be awesome!
[/quote]

I'm curious as to how we could create a smart, data driven review process that anyone on the forum could add to...

We'd need to settle on a few metrics that accurately judged a club... I'm actually thinking that smash factor might be a good base to start.

Then you could have shaft / head / length combos to sort by and we'd have three metrics.

Smash Factor: Ballspeed / Clubhead speed
Distance Factor: Total Distance / Clubhead speed
Dispersion Factor: Dispersion / Clubhead Speed [this last one might need tweaking]

People could submit individual reports for generic comparison and we could create a master file with verified data.

It would be interesting to see if we could build a large, useful data bank that allowed people with a variety of swings to see results from various clubs... it could also be used when purchasing new equipment to see if you are getting "above average" returns on a club, so you know it's a good fit for you.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1360009383' post='6362131']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1360004529' post='6361525']
I believe pretty strongly that if you hit something and "don't have anything nice to say about it" you SHOULD post your experience. That way people get the whole story and not just a bunch of fluff.
[/quote]Read the 2nd part of want I mentioned, and let it sink in. There's a difference in how one develops and posts counterpoint, vs 'you're wrong and they suck because ____[u](insert subjective opinion here)[/u]____'.

I belong to a forum where moderators are held in high regard because they watch out for this kind of thing. If you don't add substance, your post is deleted. (i.e. "XYZ sucks because I don't like the pattern or color.") The company doesn't suck because of it. The poster is using subjective data to paint the company. Then, others come along, see only "XYZ sucks..." not reading the rest and pass that on.

As someone said in another thread I read today "This isn't my first rodeo". I've been an active and prolific member of various internet communities since the mid/late 90s. The 'haters' are really easy to spot because they cannot offer up a real reason WHY something sucks more than "I don't like it". Does that add substance to the thread? No. Does't even help the company either, because they also know that not everyone likes everything. "If you had everything... where you would put it?" - Stephen Wright

The same poster saying they don't like the colors? Patterns? In every thread about the subject? There's no need for that. I think you can agree. In the very least say WHY you don't like it. "I don't like yellow" is more valid than "I don't like it" or "it's dumb". At that, say your peace. No need to keep saying it over and over and over again in the same thread.

Some people are half full types. Some are half empty types. I'm the "It's completely full, 1/2 with air, 1/2 with beer" type... "oops, now it's 100% air." *burp*

--kC
[/quote]

"Read the 2nd part of want I mentioned, and let it sink in"

in no way, shape, or form did you allude to what I said in the second part of your post. I suggest you go back and read it again and "let it sink it". Your post suggests that people who have an opinion contrary to yours shouldn't have the right to post at all, and I'm saying you're off base on that one.

The fact of the matter is that some people are going to disagree with you and me and everyone else whether you like it or not. Im sorry, but I see people who don't like something and give a valid reason for it get jumped on all the time, so to be perfectly frank suggesting that it is only those who don't give a valid reason who get attacked is a statement that doesn't hold water.

People on both sides of the fence like or dislike products for little or no reason, and people on both sides of the fence give well thought out reasons for their position, and members of all four groups get "called out" at one time or another.

Painting large swaths of posters with the same broad brush isn't going to get us anywhere.

[Woodridge]

Good discussion. Kudos to BB for starting it and to the mods for not locking it down.

Marketing is a double edged sword. The very thing that can reel one person in, can chase two people away from a given company. If an OEM is going to give out free products and trips, they have to live with how their message is delivered by the folks who receive them. Those guys effectively represent that OEM on WRX for a time and it can go either way. For example. it's worked out great for Callaway. The thing that disturbs me the most I guess, is the lack of respect for dissenting opinions or even for questions that don't fit a kool aid drinkers agenda. The gang attack aspect has been particularly bad lately and the word hater is too often used for someone who is simply skeptical. I understand excitement about a product or OEM, but will never understand arrogance and rudeness.

So, what recourse do we have when it comes to this kind of behavior.

First of all, we can punish the OEM by not buying their equipment for making foolish choices as to who they trust with their message/brand. If they want the upside of using WRX, they have to accept the downside too.

Second, we can avoid certain OEM threads. This can be hard when we aren't willing to go to step 1, but want to avoid typical fan boy nonsense.

Lastly, we can block those members who exhibit bad behavior on a consistent basis. Last, last and last resort for me personally. I didn't even know this was possible until I saw it mentioned in a thread from one member to a particularly rude poster. After much thought, I resorted to this option and WRX is a much more enjoyable read now.

I just don't see WRX changing their model, it's been very successful for them. There is of course the risk that if the rude and arrogant behavior is the norm, that good posters will leave and new folks won't feel comfortable posting. But, only time will tell as to how that plays out. It also would be nice to see more transparency as to relationships with OEM's. It would be great if members would offer that they are a staffer or have some other kind of relationship with an OEM. I'm not holding out too much hope though.

[chickenpotpie]

I guess the issue I have is that you keep hearing the same guys saying the same things over and over. Even though I generally like TM product, I'll be honest, I'm sick of seeing CP post everything related to TM. It's good data, and I appreciate the effort, but I want to hear from someone else now. His message has gone stale in my eyes.

In a similar vein, I got sick of hearing the same guys say over and over again how they hated the graphics. TDO comes to mind in this regard. It gets old quick.

Say it once or twice, fine. More than that and you are a fanboy or hater.

[Big Ben]

Very excellent stuff Woodridge and thanks for sharing, I quite enjoy enthusiasm for the brands we are on golf chat site! However, folks with relationships should never be given the opportunity to police threads and stifle good honest debate. without question there should be no reason to insult or stereotype, its in extremely poor taste and truly spoils the brew for many of us...BB

[Big Ben]

[quote name='chickenpotpie' timestamp='1360021112' post='6363455']
I guess the issue I have is that you keep hearing the same guys saying the same things over and over. Even though I generally like TM product, I'll be honest, I'm sick of seeing CP post everything related to TM. It's good data, and I appreciate the effort, but I want to hear from someone else now. His message has gone stale in my eyes.

In a similar vein, I got sick of hearing the same guys say over and over again how they hated the graphics. TDO comes to mind in this regard. It gets old quick.

Say it once or twice, fine. More than that and you are a fanboy or hater.
[/quote]I couldn't agree more so I personally need to look in the mirror and check myself as well, this "my dad can beat up your dad" routine only ruins the process and that's no fun, make your point and move on. I thought we had a rule about dominating threads somewhere no? Could be wrong...BB

[MtlJeff]

I agree with Imp that comments, both positive and negative, should have substance. If you are going to dominate a thread you better do it with some points that at least some people could see as valid. Or else you aren't adding anything.

For example let's use the Rbladez. If poster 1 says "the rbladez just trick people into thinking they are hitting it longer"...OK that doesn't really tell anyone anything and doesn't elaborate on anything specific. Let's say poster 2 says "the lofts are more bunched towards the bottom end of the set, and that can lead to bigger gaps in the scoring clubs, as a side-effect of hitting the longer irons longer comparative to other sets". Well suddenly poster 2 has some points that might be of interest to prospective buyers. Whether you agree with it or not, comments like that are part of the review process.

I mean this is still a fun forum, and i don't care if someone wants to make a few jokes here and there (because i do that). But overall positive and negative feedback should be welcomed. And BTW, someone just writing "Callaway sux" is no different then someone responding "there is always one person who has to hate on everything" as soon as a non glowing comment is entered. Neither is helpful

I've never really gotten "if you don't have something nice to say don't say it". What's the point of the forum then? I can just go to golfdigest and read press clippings if i want. I know at the end of the day it's just golf and if some jabroni like me wants to spend his money on whatever, it is not life changing. But i didn't join the site to be part of a corporate mechanism. I joined to share my opinions

[Imp]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1360025368' post='6363917']
I've never really gotten "if you don't have something nice to say don't say it". What's the point of the forum then? I can just go to golfdigest and read press clippings if i want. I know at the end of the day it's just golf and if some jabroni like me wants to spend his money on whatever, it is not life changing. But i didn't join the site to be part of a corporate mechanism. I joined to share my opinions
[/quote]That's for the childish name calling, labeling and gross generalizations that some of the members of this great community have recently taken a liking to doing.

--kC

[ahopkins13]

The only thing about TaylorMade im not crazy about is their Twitter feed. They got all these Yahoos talking about how they just blasted a 6 iron 256 yards. I find that hard be believe unless they hit the cart path or was waaaaayyyyy down hill.

I wont lie Im a big fan of Callaway, i like their products, and their staff pros. But Im all about healthy discussion. In reality i think most brands are about the same, its who markets better.

What i would LOVE to see is Callaway pick 5 TM guys to wine and dine, and 5 Callaway fans go to TaylorMade and see how that goes.

What i do love is that Callaway has openly admitted their mistakes and have been very open about Phil using a non Callaway club. Being that open and honest earns points from me.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1360072821' post='6366281']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1360025368' post='6363917']
I've never really gotten "if you don't have something nice to say don't say it". What's the point of the forum then? I can just go to golfdigest and read press clippings if i want. I know at the end of the day it's just golf and if some jabroni like me wants to spend his money on whatever, it is not life changing. But i didn't join the site to be part of a corporate mechanism. I joined to share my opinions
[/quote]That's for the childish name calling, labeling and gross generalizations that some of the members of this great community have recently taken a liking to doing.

--kC
[/quote]

OK i agree with you on that then aswell, people shouldn't be disrespectful to other members even if they disagree. That's something i've always tried to maintain here. I am opinionated but try to never make it personal. After all it's just golf

[StarFleetGolfer]

I agree with you bb, I saw where you got attacked for legitimate questions. Also you get labeled a hater because you don't agree, people use that term when they're too stupid to make an intelligent argument. Another guy got told to stay out of a thread because it was only for positive comments about TMAG.

[Big Ben]

[quote name='Golfjunki71' timestamp='1360171567' post='6373549']
I agree with you bb, I saw where you got attacked for legitimate questions. Also you get labeled a hater because you don't agree, people use that term when they're too stupid to make an intelligent argument. Another guy got told to stay out of a thread because it was only for positive comments about TMAG.
[/quote]Thank you and yes thats when it crosses the line in my opinion, I understand that having a quality open line of communication with the OEMs is valuable to the continued growth of the site however fair and unbias dialog regarding anything golf should always be welcome and a safe haven for WRX members. Threads full of fluff and banter feeding the ego of industry can't be our primary focus, if it is then we are have made the wrong turn and need to get back on track...BB

[Scott@84]

People are attacking a certain company because of multiple versions of one of their clubs, since when is this new? This has been going on FOREVER will all the OEM's but now people are getting upset with just one of the companies? If you are going to call out one company you should call out the rest of them that do it(all) or you will be considered a hater. JMO.

[Woodridge]

[quote name='Scott@84' timestamp='1360190547' post='6375881']
People are attacking a certain company because of multiple versions of one of their clubs, since when is this new? This has been going on FOREVER will all the OEM's but now people are getting upset with just one of the companies? If you are going to call out one company you should call out the rest of them that do it(all) or you will be considered a hater. JMO.
[/quote]

I can't speak for BB or anyone else. But for me, it's more about the people running into every thread and trying squelch actual discussion about a given OEM, than about a golf club.

[StarFleetGolfer]

[quote name='Woodridge' timestamp='1360196444' post='6376515']
[quote name='Scott@84' timestamp='1360190547' post='6375881']
People are attacking a certain company because of multiple versions of one of their clubs, since when is this new? This has been going on FOREVER will all the OEM's but now people are getting upset with just one of the companies? If you are going to call out one company you should call out the rest of them that do it(all) or you will be considered a hater. JMO.
[/quote]

I can't speak for BB or anyone else. But for me, it's more about the people running into every thread and trying squelch actual discussion about a given OEM, than about a golf club.
[/quote]


Yes that's very true. If you like the club no questions asked if you don't like it you are discredited based on being a hater, poor swing, crappy balls, poor simulator , being dehydrated , etc...

[Imp]

I'm a nobody. I'm a regular joe that's been around the virtual block here on the net. (Online since '87). I've seen this stuff before. And it sucks when it happens.

Here's how I see the situation...

This forum was created on the basis that there would be no bannings for saying something against any manufacturer. Honest, genuine, PEER reviews of products without fear of retribution. How they get these thing to review? Sign up to be a reviewer.

So... People post their reviews.
Those that post positive reviews are 'attacked', accused of 'drinking the koolaid'.
Those that post negative reviews are 'attacked', accused of 'being haters'.
Then there's the cross pollination of the 'drinkers' going into the 'haters' posts and vice-versa and the general name calling, all because "he started it".

I'd love, nothing more than anything else, for that to cease, for the health of the forum. The battle between the two. Doesn't matter what product, what person, etc... Give honest reviews. Discuss the merits of the REVEIW. Agree, disagree, why? Don't like the company? Do like BB did. Start a thread about the company. Use that as your outlet for aggression.

Attacking the company in all of the product threads? Attacking the reviewers? That's where threads go REALLY downhill. Can it stop? I think it can. It'll just take a small bit of work and a bit more self restraint.

I'm right with ya there BB, FAIR and UNBIASED reviews of the products. That's the founding mission of GWRX. I haven't been around long, but even I found that out. It's the people that assume the reviews are NOT fair and unbiased that cause the real problems. Because they have to attack/call out the reviewer. Not their review, nor the technical merits of the review. Go after the reviewer. Blame someone. Blame everyone. Someone has to be wrong!

It's not easy to issue self restraint. I'm the poster boy for lack of self restraint. But I've never attacked a company in their product threads, nor have I attacked a reviewer because I thought the review was crap. I HAVE questioned their METHODS. I HAVE questioned their RESULTS. I HAVE said what I believe to be wrong with them and if I were doing the test/review what I would look for in the hopes that data would be coming. If it doesn't... no skin off my back. I'll figure it out myself.
That's not saying they were wrong. Their results are their results. But I won't beat the crap out of them every opportunity.

Agree or don't agree, we all know there's a problem. The only way I feel it can be solved is ... less complaining and more discussion. No complaining about the company or reviewer.

Jeez, I sound like my dad.

--kC
(Thanks Dad)