Who Is Turned Off By Taylormade?

[Big Ben]

It's just golf clubs right?? Something is eating at me about the manner in which my FAVORITE golf site on planet earth seems picked apart lately by any and all things Taylormade, it feels a lot like ground hog day (some of the old timers will understand) and it bothers me. Everyone is entitled to there preferences and ALL brands make competent equipment including Taylormade, hell I've enjoyed my B's over the years with the best of them! It just seems between the marketing hype and very well thought out use of this site as a tool it has totally soured my taste for white! There is just this arrogance about there approach that makes me feel like passively they manipulate the ENTIRE marketplace. Please let's keep this civil, no bashing product it's not about that but does anybody else feel like we are being laughed at from the boardroom?? Regards, BB

[PedronNiall]

What excessive marketing on the site are you referring to? I will say their face paint commercial campaign is about the dumbest crap ever to come down the pipeline.

[Big Ben]

Just seems like WRX has been heavily campaigned by TM and highly covered...BB

[MtlJeff]

It's something i've thought a lot about. I mean truthfully it is not just TaylorMade, as Callaway is all over the boards these days too. But it's a really hard thing to discuss because:

a) i love the site and feel like i probably would have made the same decisions the owners have, if i owned it
b) The site has given me a chance to write stories that are published on twitter, get read by thousands of people. Get my swing analyzed by a guru like Monte Sheinblum. I mean recently a friend asked me if i've ever heard of Tom Wishon, and i said "heard of him, i've had email exchanges with that guy!". I've had a pro player email me on this site after i mentioned them in a thread. I mean....it's crazy, i love this place

So....i don't want to "cross the line" in my comments about it. But yes, i feel that some OEMs have really taken to running guerrilla marketing on the site. And that is just the stuff we can see and process. It would be foolish to think that they don't also have users on the site with general profiles, who are employees of these OEMs and whose jobs it is to hype up their new products. This is hardly innovative and i'm sure this happens more then any of us would care to think about. The giveaways and promos have also probably increased 25-fold since i first joined, and it's very very easy to see the effect this has on the posting habits of the recipients of these giveaways. I mean if i am a VP marketing at an OEM with a chance to sway the opinions of early adopters on a very large forum who are also going to influence the buying habits of other early adopters, of course you are going to do it. It's a small price to pay and i'm sure they've analyzed the numbers and the benefits outweigh the costs. Is it a coincidence that since Callaway officials have shown up on the board that Callaway's approval rating here seems to have shot through the roof?

This is business. I get it....i work for a multi billion dollar company. I understand business. I can't criticize the decisions the site has made because i would have done them. But it's also hard to argue that there isn't a heavy OEM influence either. It is what it is...so to speak.

I don't like being "the bad guy" but i seem to be a lot. A contrarian who blasts OEM claims of distance gains and plays a 2009 driver and Ping Eye2 irons. I try to share my views on new clubs but more often then not it's buried under 1000 posts saying each new club is 20yds longer then the last, and i end up in arguments with the same people over and over telling me i'm wrong. Sometimes i feel i don't fit in here anymore, at least on the forums

[Big Ben]

Very well stated MtlJeff and classy as well, I agree on all counts. I have been attacked a lot lately for the very same reasons and find myself getting worked up over it, really this thread was a way to clear my chest and try to move on...BB

[Craglyboy]

[quote name='PedronNiall' timestamp='1359758757' post='6346173']
What excessive marketing on the site are you referring to? I will say their face paint commercial campaign is about the dumbest crap ever to come down the pipeline.
[/quote]

Went to local golf store today and all the assistants had the face paint, kinda lost on a lot the customers.

[chickenpotpie]

BB, I hear you, though I'm on the opposite side, at least with one of their releases. You probably know which one.

I get the whole marketing thing. I work for a very large company too, and there is always a need to sell this years product. I get that. WRX members are generally pretty well informed I think too, thanks in part to the guys like yourself, who's been around the block a couple times on here. The thing is, I feel like TMAG is singled out for their marketing style, in a way others are not. Sure, they dress their guys up with face paint. But other vendors put a nerdy guy in a boxing ring with a championship belt, and that's not over the top.

To some extent, I think the giveaway trips have been the best thing ever and worst thing ever. Great for the guys who go, but they automatically become fanboys by default who no longer can be considered true to their roots (as much as they say they are, and I tend to believe them). That said, the guys who went on the Callaway trip don't seem to be scolded as much for their fanboyishness. Not sure why that is exactly, but its something I've wondered about. I almost think that Callaway has done a better job of infiltrating WRX by getting down to our level, with subtle references to our members (did you hear the reference to ROBOPTI in one of their videos?). Also, the whole wall in their PGA show panders to the site here. In contrast, TMAG's marketing feels more like a product push.

With all that said, I think TMAG's product is good, and will sell. I think that's what gets lost in all of this. I, for one, like the Rocketbladez. Not many others do, but I swear that 1/2 the people who speak out against them just hate the marketing.

BTW, I will be using a Callaway 3-wood this year. First time in a LONG time.

:cheers:

(Also, I mean no personal disrespect to you BB on anything I've posted...I think we are both equally frustrated by marketing!)

[Big Ben]

It's funny, you are the second person to mention Callaway and the more I think about it pretty much the same. I think you are on mark regarding TM taking the brunt of criticism and it is in many ways related to marketing separate from product. I myself might be guilty of prejudice due to my perceptions clearly stated in my first post. It's just so hard sometimes to separate my common sense from these types of campaigns, I realize the USGA has in many ways forced the brands to find other ways to sell merchandise it just insults my intelligence and when I see folks passionate about a placebo it stirs my pot! TM just happens to be my huckleberry but I now realize they aren't the only gypsies at the dance! See this is good meds for me, thanks guys! BB

[Shrapnac]

Can't say I've had sexual stirrings either way for TaylorMade. Golf clubs don't get me all hot and bothered.

[DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan]

I have a strong dislike for TMAG... So much that I almost refuse to look at the new CCM RBZ hockey stick just because of them.

[MtlJeff]

It's very simple....

TMAG= Yankees circa 2000
Callaway= Red Sox circa 2000

It used to drive me crazy that Sox fans would call the Yankees "the evil empire" when they had the [i]second [/i]highest payroll in baseball and were desperately trying to [i]be [/i]the Yankees. Yet the rest of the country (outside of NY) cheered for the Sox and hated the Yankees. Why? Because the Yankees were better at being the Yankees then the Red Sox were? It seemed crazy to me....I mean cheer for the Oakland Athletics then. Not the Red sox (in the least surprising revelation to anyone who reads MtlJeff posts, i was an A's fan...Billy Beane baby!). Cheering for the Red Sox in 2000ish was like cheering for someone who wanted to be evil but wasn't yet, yet hated the more succesful evil organization. It was like rooting for a bumbling criminal and then calling Ernst Stavro Blofeld immoral

That's why Callaway gets off easier then TMAG here. Call it the Red Sox effect

[hogans71]

[quote name='Craglyboy' timestamp='1359762923' post='6346495']
[quote name='PedronNiall' timestamp='1359758757' post='6346173']
What excessive marketing on the site are you referring to? I will say their face paint commercial campaign is about the dumbest crap ever to come down the pipeline.
[/quote]

Went to local golf store today and all the assistants had the face paint, kinda lost on a lot the customers.
[/quote]

My God, I hope that's in jest...

[PedronNiall]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1359771643' post='6347285']
It's very simple....

TMAG= Yankees circa 2000
Callaway= Red Sox circa 2000

It used to drive me crazy that Sox fans would call the Yankees "the evil empire" when they had the [i]second [/i]highest payroll in baseball and were desperately trying to [i]be [/i]the Yankees. Yet the rest of the country (outside of NY) cheered for the Sox and hated the Yankees. Why? Because the Yankees were better at being the Yankees then the Red Sox were? It seemed crazy to me....I mean cheer for the Oakland Athletics then. Not the Red sox (in the least surprising revelation to anyone who reads MtlJeff posts, i was an A's fan...Billy Beane baby!). Cheering for the Red Sox in 2000ish was like cheering for someone who wanted to be evil but wasn't yet, yet hated the more succesful evil organization. It was like rooting for a bumbling criminal and then calling Ernst Stavro Blofeld immoral

That's why Callaway gets off easier then TMAG here. Call it the Red Sox effect
[/quote]

I hated them because I'm a Braves fan, but I'm also down for my Cowboys so it is what it is.

[Pinsplitter59]

Part of being a grumpy old man to have have very strong dislikes for certain things.
There is usually no rational reasoning behind them.
So I have really disliked Taylor Made from when I saw the bubble shaft the first time.
I have added Callaway because they put things like "X" on a golf club and use sharp corners in designs.

[Thrillhouse]

Im not turned off by any oem's, and I'm not turned off by most people who are fans of one brand or another, that's fine, hell I really like titleist gear, I guess I'm a fanboy too!

What turns me off is the behaviour of some of the people who come back from these trips. I'm sick of their evangelical offensive towards anyone who suggests anything ill of the company that hooked them up, and I'm sooooooo sick of people who respond to criticism with "I guess you missed the thread where 5 of us got fit for a set of those." yeah, I did, I missed it because I don't care, that's why I don't go into those threads.

If you want to go on about your awesome free trip no problem, but keep it in that thread. The rest of the threads should be allowed to remain objective.

[Big Ben]

I agree Thrill, it's been a turnoff for many I'm afraid...BB

[practicetee]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1359794193' post='6348493']
If you want to go on about your awesome free trip no problem, but keep it in that thread. The rest of the threads should be allowed to remain objective.
[/quote]


That's my main concern with the website right there. It feel sometimes like the site is headed down a road where there will be maybe three brands that are acceptable to talk about and use their equipment and the rest of the manufacturers will be left out because they haven't greased the wheels.

While I appreciate everything the site owners and mods have both given to this site and forgone because of this site, it really made me wonder when the recent redesign happened. Another member and I joked that TMAG probably went to them and offered $15k to go to a theme that would closely resemble their new driver colors and work as subliminal marketing. I know it was probably a coincidence it happened around the unveil of the club but it caught my attention being the cynic I am.

Also, I wrote something about a company in a thread recently only to have someone from that company question me about it in a PM. It doesn't help the site remain unbiased when members have to start worrying about posting an unfavorable opinion about a company.

[Chief Illiniwek]

I'm glad to see a few of you respected members speaking up about this. When the equipment forum gets bombarded with this nonsense it's hard to find the quality posts.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='practicetee' timestamp='1359811329' post='6348841']
[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1359794193' post='6348493']
If you want to go on about your awesome free trip no problem, but keep it in that thread. The rest of the threads should be allowed to remain objective.
[/quote]


That's my main concern with the website right there. [b] It feel sometimes like the site is headed down a road where there will be maybe three brands that are acceptable to talk about and use their equipment and the rest of the manufacturers will be left out because they haven't greased the wheels.[/b]

While I appreciate everything the site owners and mods have both given to this site and forgone because of this site, it really made me wonder when the recent redesign happened. Another member and I joked that TMAG probably went to them and offered $15k to go to a theme that would closely resemble their new driver colors and work as subliminal marketing. I know it was probably a coincidence it happened around the unveil of the club but it caught my attention being the cynic I am.

Also, I wrote something about a company in a thread recently only to have someone from that company question me about it in a PM. It doesn't help the site remain unbiased when members have to start worrying about posting an unfavorable opinion about a company.
[/quote]

Bingo, that is the danger. Truthfully this place isn't what BSG became (at least from what i've heard about BSG). No mod has ever emailed me and told me not to crap on TMAG or Callaway or Ping for various reasons (and i've done all of those things), so basically you still have free speech. I mean it's not like guys are getting banned for writing "TMAG sux".

But on the other end of the coin. Within a few years you'll have what, 30-40 mostly senior respected members who have visited the kingdom (or Callaway) hung out with their executives, gotten boatloads of free stuff (i mean just check out the gift packs they get and that's even before the free clubs with any shaft you want). And now basically won't write anything negative about those OEMs, and as Thrillhouse mentioned, will aggressively defend them to anyone who does. And these are senior members who carry some clout on the board. No one wants to be the newbie who says "maybe the RBZ/Xhot isn't that long" only to have Joe-8000 posts respond that he is dumb and get seven "+1"'s on his comment. I mean in a pretty real sense the major OEMs are systematically buying the membership here. If you were on the site 4-5 years ago and now, it's hard to really debate that

[chickenpotpie]

That's why these contests are great and horrible at the same time. Clearly, the brands are picking more vocal members here to go, and not Joe 3-post who just joined yesterday to enter the contest. At the same time, these contests will begin to breed two types of folks here, neither of which is good. And I'm sure this is an I intended consequence. The first guy you get is the one who is upset he didn't get picked, and lashes out at the guys who did, as well as the brand. The second is the guy who wants so badly to go that he panders to the brand and the guys who have been picked. If you go through the trip threads and then some of the follow up threads, the #2 guys are pretty easy to pick out....some are almost creepy in the way they go about it. The #1 guys are a little more difficult to put your finger on, as some guys just hate TMAG for the sake of it.

I have to call myself out and say that I tend to lean off center towards #2 on this....I mean who doesn't want free stuff. But at the same time I don't want to be considered a sell out either. I have really been trying to keep an open mind, and let my performance results speak for themselves.

If there's one thing I've learned in all this, it's that I know how Scotty Cameron fans feel!

[geauxWRX]

I would like to make a few comments s,nice I have been taking heat for my recent taylormade comments. I will first applaud several OEMs for stepping up and taking questions from the site. Second if I were in the same position I would take full advantage of this low cost marketing also.
Now to a few things that ruffle my feathers. It seems that some manufactures have recruited people to push certain itemson the board. These people will spin certain comments and deflect questions away from the truth. Third I really don't like to be lied to about all these magical distance gains. I am a mildly successful armature player and these claims are total bs. I would respect a manufacturer much more if they stepped up to the plate and came clean saying what we make and send to our touring pros is nothing like what we sell to the average joe. No matter how much people deflect this statement it is true. Most just don't want to believe it.
I have vented and now everyone please carry on.

[MtlJeff]

Callaway and TMAG are both on the board. Why don't we start a push asking them to send 15 members with varying handicaps clubs with the exact same specs. The member would get to choose the specs, so if he likes a proforce V2, he gets a 15 degree 43 inch 3 wood from both Callaway and TMAG with the exact same shaft. Say an Xhot and an RBZ2

member then tests it out, provides real numbers, and HE gets to decide which one he keeps and has to send the other one back. I mean is there a fairer way to really find out which is longer and better? Cmon Callaway and TMAG, put up or shut up! What if 12 of the 15 end up keeping the RBZ2 over the Xhot??? Is there better publicity then that?

There could also be a thread where members vote which members they want to see test it out. OEMs don't get to pick. [i]We [/i]would pick our peers whose opinions we trust.

let's make THAT happen

[chickenpotpie]

^^^Great ideas brah! Couldn't agree more.

[geauxWRX]

There is no better test for a club than on course performance. I can't understand how people buy a club hitting it in an indoor bay and never see the actual flight.

[airjammer]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1359823553' post='6349681']
Callaway and TMAG are both on the board. Why don't we start a push asking them to send 15 members with varying handicaps clubs with the exact same specs. The member would get to choose the specs, so if he likes a proforce V2, he gets a 15 degree 43 inch 3 wood from both Callaway and TMAG with the exact same shaft. Say an Xhot and an RBZ2

member then tests it out, provides real numbers, and HE gets to decide which one he keeps and has to send the other one back. I mean is there a fairer way to really find out which is longer and better? Cmon Callaway and TMAG, put up or shut up! What if 12 of the 15 end up keeping the RBZ2 over the Xhot??? Is there better publicity then that?

There could also be a thread where members vote which members they want to see test it out. OEMs don't get to pick. [i]We [/i]would pick our peers whose opinions we trust.

let's make THAT happen
[/quote]

I don't post much but I have been here for a few years. I read almost all of the threads. Sadly, I bet I average 4 hrs a day on here and I use to use the forums for reviews but not anymore. All of these trips (which I have never put in for) have made the reviews biased. They have done their
jobs. I think they speak better for custom fitting than sometimes the equipment. A better true test would be take 5 golfers and have a the oems come in and custom fit a driver, three wood, set of irons, and a wedge for each. The 5 golfers would then choose what they hit the best. I pretty sure all the clubs would be a very close to each other in performance. All that would be different would be feel and sound. If there is a special club no doubt it will be shown.

[Big Ben]

Thanks guys for the honest feedback, I know Richard and the gang work hard to preserve the integrity of the sight but things should be looked at moving forward. This site should be and is respected for its unbiased and education feedback, this gives many the opportunity to tap into folks that are fortunate enough to provide this helpful information. I love doing Editors Reviews when I'm asked mainly because I enjoy the format, it's clear and straight forward, no bias should be used. Truth be told the question should be asked up front do you have ANY type of relationship with XYZ, if yes then this would eliminate this member from participation...BB

[Myherobobhope]

I enjoy this site, and think that it has a nice balance of "industry input" while maintaining the common man perspective.

I think new age marketing is interesting... it's going to be fun to see how companies can leverage sites like without putting people off.

I think Callaway has done a great job of walking the line.

[SterlingArcher]

This is a good thread. Granted I have not been a member for that long, I have been reading for the last 3 years. It certainly seems more recently that it has been a straight promotion for several OEMs. I don't think it's just limited to Taylor Made, BB I certainly agree with you that their supporters are the most vocal and easily setoff. I actually saw a post that said if you don't play Titleist irons you are not a true golfer. It is upsetting for me because some TM posters have made the Tour forum and Equipment forum nearly unreadable.

BTW I have a bag full of Taylor Made clubs, not because of marketing or distance promises. I picked them because I demoed clubs across all OEMs and they worked best for my game.

[B-Rad]

Great thread. I dont post a lot either. I agree with a bunch of the other posters. The stuff about the giveaways sounds spot on, before this I thought the winners were chosen randomly, now I'm not so sure. I also agree that the TM fanboys are making some of the equipment threads unreadable. Perhaps there should be a list of fanboys thread created so readers know if the author is biased or not.

[geauxWRX]

[quote name='B-Rad' timestamp='1359851866' post='6351869']
Great thread. I dont post a lot either. I agree with a bunch of the other posters. The stuff about the giveaways sounds spot on, before this I thought the winners were chosen randomly, now I'm not so sure. I also agree that the TM fanboys are making some of the equipment threads unreadable. Perhaps there should be a list of fanboys thread created so readers know if the author is biased or not.
[/quote]

The front page of the pre release is covered with fanboys. There is one particular person that recently went on a TM trip about a month ago and must have had sooo much TM koolaid that every post is about how great TM club x is. After reading some of his posts I am unsure that TM data isn't being inflated just to make the new products look better. This is the not what we want this board to become.