Any such thing as an "honest" mistake?

Can a golfer make an "honest" mistake in golf? Is it possible to be "unaware" that you violate a rule.

Pro golfers are expected to know the rules, so ignorance is no excuse.

Are all violations of the rules considered cheating?

If you drop a ball and do not think it rolled nearer the hole, and it is later proved that it did, did you cheat?

The rules are complicated. You could give every player on Tour the master rules exam (the exam that rules officials must take before they become the highest credentialed in the game) and several would fail it and no one would ace it. So, yes. Honest mistakes can occur.

The rules are complicated. You could give every player on Tour the master rules exam (the exam that rules officials must take before they become the highest credentialed in the game) and several would fail it and no one would ace it. So, yes. Honest mistakes can occur.

most players would fail the exam....I have been to two USGA Rules workshops and the exam is brutal. YOu have to score above 85% to take the advanced class.....

Yes

Yes

No

No

Anna Nordqvist moved three grains of sand in a bunker last year and it cost her the US Open. There was no way she could have known she touched them. A penalty but not cheating. Cheating generally requires intent.

The rules are complicated. You could give every player on Tour the master rules exam (the exam that rules officials must take before they become the highest credentialed in the game) and several would fail it and no one would ace it. So, yes. Honest mistakes can occur.

 

most players would fail the exam....I have been to two USGA Rules workshops and the exam is brutal. YOu have to score above 85% to take the advanced class.....

Yep. It's unbelievably difficult.

Just admit what you did, cheater!

Yes

Yes

No

No

 

Anna Nordqvist moved three grains of sand in a bunker last year and it cost her the US Open. There was no way she could have known she touched them. A penalty but not cheating. Cheating generally requires intent.

Boom

Just admit what you did, cheater!

Ya got me :-)

Yes

Yes

No

No

 

Anna Nordqvist moved three grains of sand in a bunker last year and it cost her the US Open. There was no way she could have known she touched them. A penalty but not cheating. Cheating generally requires intent.

Would you agree she likely knew she was increasing her chance of committing an infraction by hovering her clubhead so darn close to the sand? Or should have known?

Yes

Yes

No

No

 

Anna Nordqvist moved three grains of sand in a bunker last year and it cost her the US Open. There was no way she could have known she touched them. A penalty but not cheating. Cheating generally requires intent.

 

Would you agree she likely knew she was increasing her chance of committing an infraction by hovering her clubhead so darn close to the sand? Or should have known?

Ultimately, it's her fault. She should have never hovered that close to the sand. But there's no way she could have known it occurred without video - it was literally like 8 grains of sand. Lol

I think in cases of placement or determining nearest point of relief there is some room for error. In Anna's case and I believe in Lexi's case they had no idea and they also gained absolutely no advantage so definitely isn't cheating for me. Unavoidable mistake that had no intentand no advantage should equal no penalty.

I think in cases of placement or determining nearest point of relief there is some room for error. In Anna's case and I believe in Lexi's case they had no idea and they also gained absolutely no advantage so definitely isn't cheating for me. Unavoidable mistake that had no intentand no advantage should equal no penalty.

If Lexi gained no advantage, then what was she doing? She literally picked the ball an inch up off the ground and moved it over.

I don't think Anna could have know she moved 8 grains of sand (though hovering so close to the sand has probably been a long standing habit but never zoomed in that close lol). Lexi knew she was moving it an inch over. It's a pretty big difference. I would call both stupid mistakes, but only Anna's could have been unintentional. You can ask any amateur golfer to try to mark the ball and unless you have a seizure when you pick the ball up none would mark and place it as badly as Lexi did, at least unintentionally.

I think in cases of placement or determining nearest point of relief there is some room for error. In Anna's case and I believe in Lexi's case they had no idea and they also gained absolutely no advantage so definitely isn't cheating for me. Unavoidable mistake that had no intentand no advantage should equal no penalty.

 

If Lexi gained no advantage, then what was she doing? She literally picked the ball an inch up off the ground and moved it over.

She was turning the ball over so the sight lines on the ball were square to the target.

I think in cases of placement or determining nearest point of relief there is some room for error. In Anna's case and I believe in Lexi's case they had no idea and they also gained absolutely no advantage so definitely isn't cheating for me. Unavoidable mistake that had no intentand no advantage should equal no penalty.

 

If Lexi gained no advantage, then what was she doing? She literally picked the ball an inch up off the ground and moved it over.

 

She was turning the ball over so the sight lines on the ball were square to the target.

Yup, the way I see it she was just lining it up with her alignment markings. Also she did it fro mthe side so that she didn't encroach on either of her playing opponents line.

If you can see part of a coin from that view you should be able to clearly see that the green looks perfect smooth, no spike marks to avoid or anything.

In my opinion the rules for placing a ball should say something like "The player must make a fair attempt to place the ball back as close as possible to the prior spot without intending to gain any advantage" Then you trust the Golfer to have integrity and honor and follow the rule that CAN actually be followed.

I play by the rules, I take stroke and distance when OB or for a lost ball and if I know I made a mistake I call a penalty on myself. Earlier this year on a super wet morning I marked a ball with a dime as usual and tapped it down with my putter only to notice in horror that when I pulled my putter away the dime was stuck to the bottom of it! Called a 1 stroke penalty on myself and replaced the marker to where I thought it was.

Of course there are "honest" mistakes: it's how you get a little bit pregnant.

I do t know how you want to define an honest mistake. I like to think of such things as people doing things out of ignorance or forgetfulness. Smart and stupid people alike do both.

Golfers who break a rule, realize what they've done, and call a penalty on themselves are generally admired for their "honesty".

1) Can a golfer make an "honest" mistake in golf? Is it possible to be "unaware" that you violate a rule.

2) Pro golfers are expected to know the rules, so ignorance is no excuse.

3) Are all violations of the rules considered cheating?

4) If you drop a ball and do not think it rolled nearer the hole, and it is later proved that it did, did you cheat?

1) Of course. Technically the USGA only has 34 rules, but add in the hundreds of sub-rules, then the sub-sub rules, then the sub-sub-sub rules. They're so convoluted that the USGA and R&A jointly publish the Decisions on the Rules of Golf every year just to "clarify any ambiguity that might arise from the Rules." That book is 752 pages!!! Think about that. A thick @$s book, written about a tiny book, just to explain 34 rules. Pick one up, I'm sure it'll leave you on the edge of your seat......

2) Incorrect. Players are not required to know all the rules to play on the Tour. They know the cores ones and if something is outside the scope of their knowledge, to ask a fellow competitor or rules official. Many admit they don't know all the rules and are stumped from time to time.

3) No. Cheating requires intent.

4) No.

Yes

Yes

No

No

 

Anna Nordqvist moved three grains of sand in a bunker last year and it cost her the US Open. There was no way she could have known she touched them. A penalty but not cheating. Cheating generally requires intent.

 

Boom

Interesting that most (all?) of these "much talked about " breaches and incidents are about the most simple rules. Do not move the ball, do not touch the sand, place the ball in same place. And yet people seem to argue about how complicated the rules are...

As comprehensive as the rules are, there is still an element of interpretation. So yes, I think honest mistakes can happen.

Of course there is.

Cheating involves intent to get one over on everyone of try to get away with something in purpose. Not all infractions are cheating and just because you broke a rue doesn't make you a cheater

1) Can a golfer make an "honest" mistake in golf? Is it possible to be "unaware" that you violate a rule.

2) Pro golfers are expected to know the rules, so ignorance is no excuse.

3) Are all violations of the rules considered cheating?

4) If you drop a ball and do not think it rolled nearer the hole, and it is later proved that it did, did you cheat?

 

1) Of course. Technically the USGA only has 34 rules, but add in the hundreds of sub-rules, then the sub-sub rules, then the sub-sub-sub rules. They're so convoluted that the USGA and R&A jointly publish the Decisions on the Rules of Golf every year just to "clarify any ambiguity that might arise from the Rules." That book is 752 pages!!! Think about that. A thick @$s book, written about a tiny book, just to explain 34 rules. Pick one up, I'm sure it'll leave you on the edge of your seat......

 

2) Incorrect. Players are not required to know all the rules to play on the Tour. They know the cores ones and if something is outside the scope of their knowledge, to ask a fellow competitor or rules official. Many admit they don't know all the rules and are stumped from time to time.

 

3) No. Cheating requires intent.

 

4) No.

He didn't say they are required he said excpeted

They're not required to, but they are expected to and are responsible the proper application of the rules. Not knowing a rule does not make them immune from penalty. It is not the Rule Officials job to call penalties around the course, it is in the players' own best interests to know these things.

The decisions book is so large because of all the variation occurring in a round of golf, that is not played on a standardized fied, in standardized conditions.

I think in cases of placement or determining nearest point of relief there is some room for error. In Anna's case and I believe in Lexi's case they had no idea and they also gained absolutely no advantage so definitely isn't cheating for me. Unavoidable mistake that had no intentand no advantage should equal no penalty.

 

If Lexi gained no advantage, then what was she doing? She literally picked the ball an inch up off the ground and moved it over.

 

She was turning the ball over so the sight lines on the ball were square to the target.

 

Yup, the way I see it she was just lining it up with her alignment markings. Also she did it fro mthe side so that she didn't encroach on either of her playing opponents line.

 

If you can see part of a coin from that view you should be able to clearly see that the green looks perfect smooth, no spike marks to avoid or anything.

 

In my opinion the rules for placing a ball should say something like "The player must make a fair attempt to place the ball back as close as possible to the prior spot without intending to gain any advantage" Then you trust the Golfer to have integrity and honor and follow the rule that CAN actually be followed.

 

I play by the rules, I take stroke and distance when OB or for a lost ball and if I know I made a mistake I call a penalty on myself. Earlier this year on a super wet morning I marked a ball with a dime as usual and tapped it down with my putter only to notice in horror that when I pulled my putter away the dime was stuck to the bottom of it! Called a 1 stroke penalty on myself and replaced the marker to where I thought it was.

The new local rule actually removes your penalty

I think in cases of placement or determining nearest point of relief there is some room for error. In Anna's case and I believe in Lexi's case they had no idea and they also gained absolutely no advantage so definitely isn't cheating for me. Unavoidable mistake that had no intentand no advantage should equal no penalty.

 

If Lexi gained no advantage, then what was she doing? She literally picked the ball an inch up off the ground and moved it over.

 

She was turning the ball over so the sight lines on the ball were square to the target.

 

Yup, the way I see it she was just lining it up with her alignment markings. Also she did it fro mthe side so that she didn't encroach on either of her playing opponents line.

 

If you can see part of a coin from that view you should be able to clearly see that the green looks perfect smooth, no spike marks to avoid or anything.

 

In my opinion the rules for placing a ball should say something like "The player must make a fair attempt to place the ball back as close as possible to the prior spot without intending to gain any advantage" Then you trust the Golfer to have integrity and honor and follow the rule that CAN actually be followed.

 

I play by the rules, I take stroke and distance when OB or for a lost ball and if I know I made a mistake I call a penalty on myself. Earlier this year on a super wet morning I marked a ball with a dime as usual and tapped it down with my putter only to notice in horror that when I pulled my putter away the dime was stuck to the bottom of it! Called a 1 stroke penalty on myself and replaced the marker to where I thought it was.

The new local rule actually removes your penalty

If and only if it is enacted by the committe or organization. They are not in play all the time. You probably already knew that but I'm just throwing it out there.

I think in cases of placement or determining nearest point of relief there is some room for error. In Anna's case and I believe in Lexi's case they had no idea and they also gained absolutely no advantage so definitely isn't cheating for me. Unavoidable mistake that had no intentand no advantage should equal no penalty.

 

If Lexi gained no advantage, then what was she doing? She literally picked the ball an inch up off the ground and moved it over.

 

She was turning the ball over so the sight lines on the ball were square to the target.

 

Yup, the way I see it she was just lining it up with her alignment markings. Also she did it fro mthe side so that she didn't encroach on either of her playing opponents line.

 

If you can see part of a coin from that view you should be able to clearly see that the green looks perfect smooth, no spike marks to avoid or anything.

 

In my opinion the rules for placing a ball should say something like "The player must make a fair attempt to place the ball back as close as possible to the prior spot without intending to gain any advantage" Then you trust the Golfer to have integrity and honor and follow the rule that CAN actually be followed.

 

I play by the rules, I take stroke and distance when OB or for a lost ball and if I know I made a mistake I call a penalty on myself. Earlier this year on a super wet morning I marked a ball with a dime as usual and tapped it down with my putter only to notice in horror that when I pulled my putter away the dime was stuck to the bottom of it! Called a 1 stroke penalty on myself and replaced the marker to where I thought it was.

The new local rule actually removes your penalty

New local rule not needed in this case.

20-1/6 Ball-Marker Moved Accidentally by Player in Process of Marking Position of Ball

Q. A player marked the position of his ball with a coin, lifted the ball and pressed down the coin with the sole of his putter. He walked to the edge of the green and then noticed that the coin had stuck to the sole of the putter. What is the ruling?

A. In this case, the movement of the ball-marker was directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of the ball.

Accordingly, no penalty is incurred and the ball or the ball-marker must be replaced. If the spot where the ball or the ball-marker lay is not known, it must be placed as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole (Rule 20-3c).

as most others have said - yes, you can make an honest mistake, but its still a penalty!

And agree cheating implies intent to deceive

Do you ever make a mistake on purpose? A mistake done on purpose is not a mistake. I think by definition that every mistake is accidental, and therefore 'honest'.

Yes

Yes

No

No

 

Anna Nordqvist moved three grains of sand in a bunker last year and it cost her the US Open. There was no way she could have known she touched them. A penalty but not cheating. Cheating generally requires intent.

 

Would you agree she likely knew she was increasing her chance of committing an infraction by hovering her clubhead so darn close to the sand? Or should have known?

under that logic she should have made the swing from outside the bunker.... i.e the safest place, out of the sand... come on!

answer to the OP is YES... absolutely.. the rules are far to vast and convoluted for any actual player to be an expert on.. Only folks who make it their lifes mission acheive this... and good on them .. i do not mean that as anything but a compliment to those people.. But as for the rules, they are absurdly difficult to understand at times, even if reading one at a time , and surely in their entirety are too much conflicting info for an actual player to have ratling around in his or her head... Now of course im not talking about the basics... But the volumes of Thees, Thous, and Therefores..plus the personal favorites "reasonable distance and good intent"...

Yes

Yes

No

No

 

Anna Nordqvist moved three grains of sand in a bunker last year and it cost her the US Open. There was no way she could have known she touched them. A penalty but not cheating. Cheating generally requires intent.

Read somewhere about Azinger and Seve having a rules discussion during Ryder Cup. Azinger told Seve there was no intent to cheat. Seve said breaking the rules and cheating were totally different.