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How to tell if you are a pushy, crazy or overbearing golf parent

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  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 16, 2019 1:24am #32

    Yep - number of daddy caddies at the am sums it up. I think I heard on today’s Breed podcast that there were a significant number of them in the field. And we’re talking collegiate golfers for the most part. Only reason you don’t see this at the junior am is bc it’s not allowed (parent-caddies).

  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 9,115 ClubWRX

    @tatertot said:

    @kekoa said:

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @kekoa said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    Before High School age...just ask yourself 1 question.

    Do I care more about my daughter/son having fun or winning? If your answer is winning, you're overbearing.

    I'd almost argue that any high level of tournament golf can't be fun unless we are talking about US kids locals. I guess that depends on one's definition of fun. A kid can enjoy himself and competing, but I wouldn't describe tournament golf as fun. I'm only talking elite level stuff here.

    I've asked my son before and he considers putting/chipping contests with his buddies after a tournament round as being 'fun.' He plays tournaments because he loves golf and competing.

    Apologies if I didn't make my point properly. I meant as a parent, do you care more if your son/daughter wins or has fun.

    I'll be honest. When it comes to golf- its more important for me to have him win.
    He does other, much less expensive things for fun.

    So you're "investing" in your child? You might have a problem.

    Not really investing but I get your point. Sorry for being the only honest one here ;)

  • CTgolfCTgolf Members Posts: 501 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Virtuous Parent Signaling & Parent Shaming

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    @tatertot said:

    @kekoa said:

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @kekoa said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    Before High School age...just ask yourself 1 question.

    Do I care more about my daughter/son having fun or winning? If your answer is winning, you're overbearing.

    I'd almost argue that any high level of tournament golf can't be fun unless we are talking about US kids locals. I guess that depends on one's definition of fun. A kid can enjoy himself and competing, but I wouldn't describe tournament golf as fun. I'm only talking elite level stuff here.

    I've asked my son before and he considers putting/chipping contests with his buddies after a tournament round as being 'fun.' He plays tournaments because he loves golf and competing.

    Apologies if I didn't make my point properly. I meant as a parent, do you care more if your son/daughter wins or has fun.

    I'll be honest. When it comes to golf- its more important for me to have him win.
    He does other, much less expensive things for fun.

    So you're "investing" in your child? You might have a problem.

    I do not see how investing in my child is a problem?
    - I am investing for his future not mine.

    • it is the same way I invest in their academics or piano lessons etc
      you might not like the word "investing" but if I am going to spend a lot of time that takes away from other things we could do ..
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Yep - number of daddy caddies at the am sums it up. I think I heard on today’s Breed podcast that there were a significant number of them in the field. And we’re talking collegiate golfers for the most part. Only reason you don’t see this at the junior am is bc it’s not allowed (parent-caddies).

    A Caddie at a USGA event is going to run you $360 minimum (most people just hand them 4 benjamins). Mandatory pay for 2 practice rounds and 2 tournament rounds. Getting a good caddie is 50/50. With the price tag you pay to get to the event, hotel room minimum 4 nights, eating 6 days, I would save the $360.00 and carry my kids bag.

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 16, 2019 12:53pm #38

    @tatertot said:

    @kekoa said:

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @kekoa said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    Before High School age...just ask yourself 1 question.

    Do I care more about my daughter/son having fun or winning? If your answer is winning, you're overbearing.

    I'd almost argue that any high level of tournament golf can't be fun unless we are talking about US kids locals. I guess that depends on one's definition of fun. A kid can enjoy himself and competing, but I wouldn't describe tournament golf as fun. I'm only talking elite level stuff here.

    I've asked my son before and he considers putting/chipping contests with his buddies after a tournament round as being 'fun.' He plays tournaments because he loves golf and competing.

    Apologies if I didn't make my point properly. I meant as a parent, do you care more if your son/daughter wins or has fun.

    I'll be honest. When it comes to golf- its more important for me to have him win.
    He does other, much less expensive things for fun.

    So you're "investing" in your child? You might have a problem.

    A perIt makes sense to say you want to win and it's important to have the correct attitude.> @heavy_hitter said:

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Yep - number of daddy caddies at the am sums it up. I think I heard on today’s Breed podcast that there were a significant number of them in the field. And we’re talking collegiate golfers for the most part. Only reason you don’t see this at the junior am is bc it’s not allowed (parent-caddies).

    A Caddie at a USGA event is going to run you $360 minimum (most people just hand them 4 benjamins). Mandatory pay for 2 practice rounds and 2 tournament rounds. Getting a good caddie is 50/50. With the price tag you pay to get to the event, hotel room minimum 4 nights, eating 6 days, I would save the $360.00 and carry my kids bag.

    Hiring caddies even if you could afford them is a very iffy proposition. Even if you could hire the best caddie money to buy there is no guarantee that caddie will be any better then a family member who is free on your bag and the paid caddie actually might give confusing advice if your not familiar with them. A parent should actually be a perfect caddie to help mentally as well. Lots of cases where even pro's use a family member. I believe for instance Brooke Henderson uses her sister and I pretty sure she could hire a caddie.

    The biggest issue I see with parents caddies is in US Kids events where a kid can be pushed to dominate the local tour. If a kid wins week in and week out it creates a unrealistic expectation that they will win every event they enter and in many cases will do anything to keep winning. The reality is even if you have a perfect day your not guaranteed a win.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Yep - number of daddy caddies at the am sums it up. I think I heard on today’s Breed podcast that there were a significant number of them in the field. And we’re talking collegiate golfers for the most part. Only reason you don’t see this at the junior am is bc it’s not allowed (parent-caddies).

    A Caddie at a USGA event is going to run you $360 minimum (most people just hand them 4 benjamins). Mandatory pay for 2 practice rounds and 2 tournament rounds. Getting a good caddie is 50/50. With the price tag you pay to get to the event, hotel room minimum 4 nights, eating 6 days, I would save the $360.00 and carry my kids bag.

    Either way, if it’s a financial issue, you need an over-involved or over-committed parent. The cost of golf, tennis, hockey and other sports are so much that you need to be making or have saved X to prudently be spending it on the costs of annual junior golf. If you are going into debt to fund junior golf, you are over-committed. Not that being over-committed is wrong, but you are in the same boat as an overbearing or over-involved parent.

  • tatertottatertot Members Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 16, 2019 5:03pm #41

    @dpb5031 said:
    Of course we "invest" in our kids, and we push them toward activities and behaviors that will help them develop into good adults. We want them to find success (however you may define it), and we want them to be fulfilled. Nothing wrong with that! Do some take it too far? Absolutely, plenty of over-the-top parents who take it too far and lose perspective. I posted the following in another recent thread and thought it would be appropriate to copy-paste it here. Apologies to those who may have read it in the other thread...

    "I'm kind of tired of hearing the same condescending comments from the dad-shaming / pro-laze faire, "just let kids be kids" crowd. My guess is most recommending that approach have not raised children of their own.

    We make our kids to go to school and do their homework. We require them to read, study, and do their chores... some parents more than others. Sure, some children are very self motivated and don't require much oversight, but those coming from caring and disciplined households that monitor their kids and make sure they're putting forth appropriate effort in these activities are more likely to succeed than those coming from households that don't. In my view, athletics, music, and the arts are not that much different. I'm not saying they should carry the same weight as academics, but I am saying that significant parental interest and involvement isn't some off-the-wall concept, and in most cases is healthier than just letting children call their own shots.

    Children are impulsive. One day they're all-in on something, the next, especially if something more appealing in the moment comes along, they're no longer interested. Perseverance, discipline, sacrifice, and work ethic don't always come naturally. Parents need to set an example, and to varying degrees based on age and maturity, prod their kids along on occasion and hold them accountable. Rare is the child who is singular in focus and entirely self motivated at all times. I'm not even sure if that's entirely healthy or normal behavior for children anyway.

    So, I agree that golf, or any other sport for that matter, really should be fun for kids. But I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for parents to push their kids a long when they're being lazy, impulsive, and short-sighted. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach a child that if he or she makes a commitment to play in a tournament (costing the parents time and money for entry fees and travel), that the right and responsible thing to do is to prepare appropriately."

    As with most things, finding the right balance is key, and it's not the same for ever kid...they're all different. What works best for one may not work at all for another. It's situational leadership (parenting).

    I agree ... Youth sports are like swimming. You can't just throw your kids in the deep end and tell them to "have fun." You've got to teach them how to succeed.

    And your story is great ... you pushed your child, they loved the sport, and it was a success. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

    The problem arises when the parent pushes, and the child obviously doesn't love the sport ... or the parent pushes too hard, and the child learns to hate the sport. But the parent keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. That's when the supporting parent becomes the overbearing parent, and it becomes about the adult, not the child.

    A big clue is when the parent starts using the pronoun "we" to discuss the child's progress. "We had a good tournament today." "We scored 3 goals today." "We had a homerun and threw a no-hitter today."

    Driver: TaylorMade M3, 10.5*
    Hybrid: Titleist 816 H1, 19*
    Long Iron: Ping iE1, 26*
    Mid Iron: Ping iE1, 32*
    Short Iron: Ping iE1, 41*
    Wedge: Ping iE1, 45*
    Gap: Ping Glide SS, 52*
    Lob: Ping Glide ES, 60*
    Putter: Yes Callie Mid, 41"
    Ball: Bridgestone Tour B XS
    Bag: Ping Mascot
  • TuguTugu Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭

    @tatertot said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Of course we "invest" in our kids, and we push them toward activities and behaviors that will help them develop into good adults. We want them to find success (however you may define it), and we want them to be fulfilled. Nothing wrong with that! Do some take it too far? Absolutely, plenty of over-the-top parents who take it too far and lose perspective. I posted the following in another recent thread and thought it would be appropriate to copy-paste it here. Apologies to those who may have read it in the other thread...

    "I'm kind of tired of hearing the same condescending comments from the dad-shaming / pro-laze faire, "just let kids be kids" crowd. My guess is most recommending that approach have not raised children of their own.

    We make our kids to go to school and do their homework. We require them to read, study, and do their chores... some parents more than others. Sure, some children are very self motivated and don't require much oversight, but those coming from caring and disciplined households that monitor their kids and make sure they're putting forth appropriate effort in these activities are more likely to succeed than those coming from households that don't. In my view, athletics, music, and the arts are not that much different. I'm not saying they should carry the same weight as academics, but I am saying that significant parental interest and involvement isn't some off-the-wall concept, and in most cases is healthier than just letting children call their own shots.

    Children are impulsive. One day they're all-in on something, the next, especially if something more appealing in the moment comes along, they're no longer interested. Perseverance, discipline, sacrifice, and work ethic don't always come naturally. Parents need to set an example, and to varying degrees based on age and maturity, prod their kids along on occasion and hold them accountable. Rare is the child who is singular in focus and entirely self motivated at all times. I'm not even sure if that's entirely healthy or normal behavior for children anyway.

    So, I agree that golf, or any other sport for that matter, really should be fun for kids. But I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for parents to push their kids a long when they're being lazy, impulsive, and short-sighted. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach a child that if he or she makes a commitment to play in a tournament (costing the parents time and money for entry fees and travel), that the right and responsible thing to do is to prepare appropriately."

    As with most things, finding the right balance is key, and it's not the same for ever kid...they're all different. What works best for one may not work at all for another. It's situational leadership (parenting).

    I agree ... Youth sports are like swimming. You can't just throw your kids in the deep end and tell them to "have fun." You've got to teach them how to succeed.

    And your story is great ... you pushed your child, they loved the sport, and it was a success. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

    The problem arises when the parent pushes, and the child obviously doesn't love the sport ... or the parent pushes too hard, and the child learns to hate the sport. But the parent keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. That's when the supporting parent becomes the overbearing parent, and it becomes about the adult, not the child.

    A big clue is when the parent starts using the pronoun "we" to discuss the child's progress. "We had a good tournament today." "We scored 3 goals today." "We had a home run and threw a no-hitter today."

    Don't forget that the phrasing reverts to "he" or "she" when the child has a bad day. Its only "we" on a good day.

  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tugu said:

    @tatertot said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Of course we "invest" in our kids, and we push them toward activities and behaviors that will help them develop into good adults. We want them to find success (however you may define it), and we want them to be fulfilled. Nothing wrong with that! Do some take it too far? Absolutely, plenty of over-the-top parents who take it too far and lose perspective. I posted the following in another recent thread and thought it would be appropriate to copy-paste it here. Apologies to those who may have read it in the other thread...

    "I'm kind of tired of hearing the same condescending comments from the dad-shaming / pro-laze faire, "just let kids be kids" crowd. My guess is most recommending that approach have not raised children of their own.

    We make our kids to go to school and do their homework. We require them to read, study, and do their chores... some parents more than others. Sure, some children are very self motivated and don't require much oversight, but those coming from caring and disciplined households that monitor their kids and make sure they're putting forth appropriate effort in these activities are more likely to succeed than those coming from households that don't. In my view, athletics, music, and the arts are not that much different. I'm not saying they should carry the same weight as academics, but I am saying that significant parental interest and involvement isn't some off-the-wall concept, and in most cases is healthier than just letting children call their own shots.

    Children are impulsive. One day they're all-in on something, the next, especially if something more appealing in the moment comes along, they're no longer interested. Perseverance, discipline, sacrifice, and work ethic don't always come naturally. Parents need to set an example, and to varying degrees based on age and maturity, prod their kids along on occasion and hold them accountable. Rare is the child who is singular in focus and entirely self motivated at all times. I'm not even sure if that's entirely healthy or normal behavior for children anyway.

    So, I agree that golf, or any other sport for that matter, really should be fun for kids. But I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for parents to push their kids a long when they're being lazy, impulsive, and short-sighted. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach a child that if he or she makes a commitment to play in a tournament (costing the parents time and money for entry fees and travel), that the right and responsible thing to do is to prepare appropriately."

    As with most things, finding the right balance is key, and it's not the same for ever kid...they're all different. What works best for one may not work at all for another. It's situational leadership (parenting).

    I agree ... Youth sports are like swimming. You can't just throw your kids in the deep end and tell them to "have fun." You've got to teach them how to succeed.

    And your story is great ... you pushed your child, they loved the sport, and it was a success. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

    The problem arises when the parent pushes, and the child obviously doesn't love the sport ... or the parent pushes too hard, and the child learns to hate the sport. But the parent keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. That's when the supporting parent becomes the overbearing parent, and it becomes about the adult, not the child.

    A big clue is when the parent starts using the pronoun "we" to discuss the child's progress. "We had a good tournament today." "We scored 3 goals today." "We had a home run and threw a no-hitter today."

    Don't forget that the phrasing reverts to "he" or "she" when the child has a bad day. Its only "we" on a good day.

    I don't know about this 'we' criticism. If I caddie for the boy (pretty few and far between at this point) and I am telling someone about the round then it's going to be 'we' because it was something we did together.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • JuniorGolfParentJuniorGolfParent Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭

    I scored 13, but in the end I'm not sure the score matters all that much in whether your kid develops a lasting long term love of the sport and succeeds. I think a lot of it is dependent on a child's temperament, natural inclinations and relationship with the parent.

    I made A TON of mistakes with my son when he started at 6, and even though I've gotten to the point where I am a almost normal and probably a net positive influence, 5 years later I still screw up all the time. But he knows that my criticism is because I want him to be the best player possible, and he has told me more than once that he is glad that I am hard on him sometimes, because he "hasn't seen many great players who didn't have parents who weren't a little crazy".

  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 737 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tatertot said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Of course we "invest" in our kids, and we push them toward activities and behaviors that will help them develop into good adults. We want them to find success (however you may define it), and we want them to be fulfilled. Nothing wrong with that! Do some take it too far? Absolutely, plenty of over-the-top parents who take it too far and lose perspective. I posted the following in another recent thread and thought it would be appropriate to copy-paste it here. Apologies to those who may have read it in the other thread...

    "I'm kind of tired of hearing the same condescending comments from the dad-shaming / pro-laze faire, "just let kids be kids" crowd. My guess is most recommending that approach have not raised children of their own.

    We make our kids to go to school and do their homework. We require them to read, study, and do their chores... some parents more than others. Sure, some children are very self motivated and don't require much oversight, but those coming from caring and disciplined households that monitor their kids and make sure they're putting forth appropriate effort in these activities are more likely to succeed than those coming from households that don't. In my view, athletics, music, and the arts are not that much different. I'm not saying they should carry the same weight as academics, but I am saying that significant parental interest and involvement isn't some off-the-wall concept, and in most cases is healthier than just letting children call their own shots.

    Children are impulsive. One day they're all-in on something, the next, especially if something more appealing in the moment comes along, they're no longer interested. Perseverance, discipline, sacrifice, and work ethic don't always come naturally. Parents need to set an example, and to varying degrees based on age and maturity, prod their kids along on occasion and hold them accountable. Rare is the child who is singular in focus and entirely self motivated at all times. I'm not even sure if that's entirely healthy or normal behavior for children anyway.

    So, I agree that golf, or any other sport for that matter, really should be fun for kids. But I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for parents to push their kids a long when they're being lazy, impulsive, and short-sighted. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach a child that if he or she makes a commitment to play in a tournament (costing the parents time and money for entry fees and travel), that the right and responsible thing to do is to prepare appropriately."

    As with most things, finding the right balance is key, and it's not the same for ever kid...they're all different. What works best for one may not work at all for another. It's situational leadership (parenting).

    I agree ... Youth sports are like swimming. You can't just throw your kids in the deep end and tell them to "have fun." You've got to teach them how to succeed.

    And your story is great ... you pushed your child, they loved the sport, and it was a success. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

    The problem arises when the parent pushes, and the child obviously doesn't love the sport ... or the parent pushes too hard, and the child learns to hate the sport. But the parent keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. That's when the supporting parent becomes the overbearing parent, and it becomes about the adult, not the child.

    A big clue is when the parent starts using the pronoun "we" to discuss the child's progress. "We had a good tournament today." "We scored 3 goals today." "We had a homerun and threw a no-hitter today."

    don't buy this at all. Golf in this has become a team element of we. Even the pros like JT ect use the term We because you are a team. So saying we had 3 birdies today does not make you overbearing parent. Most people would consider a caddy player a team an a "WE"

  • CTgolfCTgolf Members Posts: 501 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Question 26: You read this forum religiously

  • tatertottatertot Members Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @darter79 said:

    @tatertot said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Of course we "invest" in our kids, and we push them toward activities and behaviors that will help them develop into good adults. We want them to find success (however you may define it), and we want them to be fulfilled. Nothing wrong with that! Do some take it too far? Absolutely, plenty of over-the-top parents who take it too far and lose perspective. I posted the following in another recent thread and thought it would be appropriate to copy-paste it here. Apologies to those who may have read it in the other thread...

    "I'm kind of tired of hearing the same condescending comments from the dad-shaming / pro-laze faire, "just let kids be kids" crowd. My guess is most recommending that approach have not raised children of their own.

    We make our kids to go to school and do their homework. We require them to read, study, and do their chores... some parents more than others. Sure, some children are very self motivated and don't require much oversight, but those coming from caring and disciplined households that monitor their kids and make sure they're putting forth appropriate effort in these activities are more likely to succeed than those coming from households that don't. In my view, athletics, music, and the arts are not that much different. I'm not saying they should carry the same weight as academics, but I am saying that significant parental interest and involvement isn't some off-the-wall concept, and in most cases is healthier than just letting children call their own shots.

    Children are impulsive. One day they're all-in on something, the next, especially if something more appealing in the moment comes along, they're no longer interested. Perseverance, discipline, sacrifice, and work ethic don't always come naturally. Parents need to set an example, and to varying degrees based on age and maturity, prod their kids along on occasion and hold them accountable. Rare is the child who is singular in focus and entirely self motivated at all times. I'm not even sure if that's entirely healthy or normal behavior for children anyway.

    So, I agree that golf, or any other sport for that matter, really should be fun for kids. But I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for parents to push their kids a long when they're being lazy, impulsive, and short-sighted. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach a child that if he or she makes a commitment to play in a tournament (costing the parents time and money for entry fees and travel), that the right and responsible thing to do is to prepare appropriately."

    As with most things, finding the right balance is key, and it's not the same for ever kid...they're all different. What works best for one may not work at all for another. It's situational leadership (parenting).

    I agree ... Youth sports are like swimming. You can't just throw your kids in the deep end and tell them to "have fun." You've got to teach them how to succeed.

    And your story is great ... you pushed your child, they loved the sport, and it was a success. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

    The problem arises when the parent pushes, and the child obviously doesn't love the sport ... or the parent pushes too hard, and the child learns to hate the sport. But the parent keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. That's when the supporting parent becomes the overbearing parent, and it becomes about the adult, not the child.

    A big clue is when the parent starts using the pronoun "we" to discuss the child's progress. "We had a good tournament today." "We scored 3 goals today." "We had a homerun and threw a no-hitter today."

    don't buy this at all. Golf in this has become a team element of we. Even the pros like JT ect use the term We because you are a team. So saying we had 3 birdies today does not make you overbearing parent. Most people would consider a caddy player a team an a "WE"

    You're not on Tour, you're not a professional caddy and you're not playing for millions. This is about your child, not you.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3, 10.5*
    Hybrid: Titleist 816 H1, 19*
    Long Iron: Ping iE1, 26*
    Mid Iron: Ping iE1, 32*
    Short Iron: Ping iE1, 41*
    Wedge: Ping iE1, 45*
    Gap: Ping Glide SS, 52*
    Lob: Ping Glide ES, 60*
    Putter: Yes Callie Mid, 41"
    Ball: Bridgestone Tour B XS
    Bag: Ping Mascot
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @tatertot said:

    @darter79 said:

    @tatertot said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Of course we "invest" in our kids, and we push them toward activities and behaviors that will help them develop into good adults. We want them to find success (however you may define it), and we want them to be fulfilled. Nothing wrong with that! Do some take it too far? Absolutely, plenty of over-the-top parents who take it too far and lose perspective. I posted the following in another recent thread and thought it would be appropriate to copy-paste it here. Apologies to those who may have read it in the other thread...

    "I'm kind of tired of hearing the same condescending comments from the dad-shaming / pro-laze faire, "just let kids be kids" crowd. My guess is most recommending that approach have not raised children of their own.

    We make our kids to go to school and do their homework. We require them to read, study, and do their chores... some parents more than others. Sure, some children are very self motivated and don't require much oversight, but those coming from caring and disciplined households that monitor their kids and make sure they're putting forth appropriate effort in these activities are more likely to succeed than those coming from households that don't. In my view, athletics, music, and the arts are not that much different. I'm not saying they should carry the same weight as academics, but I am saying that significant parental interest and involvement isn't some off-the-wall concept, and in most cases is healthier than just letting children call their own shots.

    Children are impulsive. One day they're all-in on something, the next, especially if something more appealing in the moment comes along, they're no longer interested. Perseverance, discipline, sacrifice, and work ethic don't always come naturally. Parents need to set an example, and to varying degrees based on age and maturity, prod their kids along on occasion and hold them accountable. Rare is the child who is singular in focus and entirely self motivated at all times. I'm not even sure if that's entirely healthy or normal behavior for children anyway.

    So, I agree that golf, or any other sport for that matter, really should be fun for kids. But I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for parents to push their kids a long when they're being lazy, impulsive, and short-sighted. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach a child that if he or she makes a commitment to play in a tournament (costing the parents time and money for entry fees and travel), that the right and responsible thing to do is to prepare appropriately."

    As with most things, finding the right balance is key, and it's not the same for ever kid...they're all different. What works best for one may not work at all for another. It's situational leadership (parenting).

    I agree ... Youth sports are like swimming. You can't just throw your kids in the deep end and tell them to "have fun." You've got to teach them how to succeed.

    And your story is great ... you pushed your child, they loved the sport, and it was a success. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

    The problem arises when the parent pushes, and the child obviously doesn't love the sport ... or the parent pushes too hard, and the child learns to hate the sport. But the parent keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. That's when the supporting parent becomes the overbearing parent, and it becomes about the adult, not the child.

    A big clue is when the parent starts using the pronoun "we" to discuss the child's progress. "We had a good tournament today." "We scored 3 goals today." "We had a homerun and threw a no-hitter today."

    don't buy this at all. Golf in this has become a team element of we. Even the pros like JT ect use the term We because you are a team. So saying we had 3 birdies today does not make you overbearing parent. Most people would consider a caddy player a team an a "WE"

    You're not on Tour, you're not a professional caddy and you're not playing for millions. This is about your child, not you.

    I dunno Tot, I can see it both ways. I've witnessed parent caddies who are wonderful out there with their kids. The kid's happy and having fun and enjoying the camaraderie and bonding with the parent in the heat of competition. In those cases I see nothing wrong with using "we" as the pronoun indicating a team effort, and ive even heard the kids use it.

    On the other hand I've witnessed some nightmares as well...lol. in those cases the parent just needs to STFU. 😁

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  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @tatertot said:

    @darter79 said:

    @tatertot said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Of course we "invest" in our kids, and we push them toward activities and behaviors that will help them develop into good adults. We want them to find success (however you may define it), and we want them to be fulfilled. Nothing wrong with that! Do some take it too far? Absolutely, plenty of over-the-top parents who take it too far and lose perspective. I posted the following in another recent thread and thought it would be appropriate to copy-paste it here. Apologies to those who may have read it in the other thread...

    "I'm kind of tired of hearing the same condescending comments from the dad-shaming / pro-laze faire, "just let kids be kids" crowd. My guess is most recommending that approach have not raised children of their own.

    We make our kids to go to school and do their homework. We require them to read, study, and do their chores... some parents more than others. Sure, some children are very self motivated and don't require much oversight, but those coming from caring and disciplined households that monitor their kids and make sure they're putting forth appropriate effort in these activities are more likely to succeed than those coming from households that don't. In my view, athletics, music, and the arts are not that much different. I'm not saying they should carry the same weight as academics, but I am saying that significant parental interest and involvement isn't some off-the-wall concept, and in most cases is healthier than just letting children call their own shots.

    Children are impulsive. One day they're all-in on something, the next, especially if something more appealing in the moment comes along, they're no longer interested. Perseverance, discipline, sacrifice, and work ethic don't always come naturally. Parents need to set an example, and to varying degrees based on age and maturity, prod their kids along on occasion and hold them accountable. Rare is the child who is singular in focus and entirely self motivated at all times. I'm not even sure if that's entirely healthy or normal behavior for children anyway.

    So, I agree that golf, or any other sport for that matter, really should be fun for kids. But I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for parents to push their kids a long when they're being lazy, impulsive, and short-sighted. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach a child that if he or she makes a commitment to play in a tournament (costing the parents time and money for entry fees and travel), that the right and responsible thing to do is to prepare appropriately."

    As with most things, finding the right balance is key, and it's not the same for ever kid...they're all different. What works best for one may not work at all for another. It's situational leadership (parenting).

    I agree ... Youth sports are like swimming. You can't just throw your kids in the deep end and tell them to "have fun." You've got to teach them how to succeed.

    And your story is great ... you pushed your child, they loved the sport, and it was a success. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

    The problem arises when the parent pushes, and the child obviously doesn't love the sport ... or the parent pushes too hard, and the child learns to hate the sport. But the parent keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. That's when the supporting parent becomes the overbearing parent, and it becomes about the adult, not the child.

    A big clue is when the parent starts using the pronoun "we" to discuss the child's progress. "We had a good tournament today." "We scored 3 goals today." "We had a homerun and threw a no-hitter today."

    don't buy this at all. Golf in this has become a team element of we. Even the pros like JT ect use the term We because you are a team. So saying we had 3 birdies today does not make you overbearing parent. Most people would consider a caddy player a team an a "WE"

    You're not on Tour, you're not a professional caddy and you're not playing for millions. This is about your child, not you.

    It's an activity that you participated in together, so in describing the event WE is the appropriate pronoun to use. Just like you would say, 'We rode our bikes to the store'... you're not participating in the Tour de France but you still did it together so using WE is appropriate.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • tatertottatertot Members Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:

    @tatertot said:

    @darter79 said:

    @tatertot said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Of course we "invest" in our kids, and we push them toward activities and behaviors that will help them develop into good adults. We want them to find success (however you may define it), and we want them to be fulfilled. Nothing wrong with that! Do some take it too far? Absolutely, plenty of over-the-top parents who take it too far and lose perspective. I posted the following in another recent thread and thought it would be appropriate to copy-paste it here. Apologies to those who may have read it in the other thread...

    "I'm kind of tired of hearing the same condescending comments from the dad-shaming / pro-laze faire, "just let kids be kids" crowd. My guess is most recommending that approach have not raised children of their own.

    We make our kids to go to school and do their homework. We require them to read, study, and do their chores... some parents more than others. Sure, some children are very self motivated and don't require much oversight, but those coming from caring and disciplined households that monitor their kids and make sure they're putting forth appropriate effort in these activities are more likely to succeed than those coming from households that don't. In my view, athletics, music, and the arts are not that much different. I'm not saying they should carry the same weight as academics, but I am saying that significant parental interest and involvement isn't some off-the-wall concept, and in most cases is healthier than just letting children call their own shots.

    Children are impulsive. One day they're all-in on something, the next, especially if something more appealing in the moment comes along, they're no longer interested. Perseverance, discipline, sacrifice, and work ethic don't always come naturally. Parents need to set an example, and to varying degrees based on age and maturity, prod their kids along on occasion and hold them accountable. Rare is the child who is singular in focus and entirely self motivated at all times. I'm not even sure if that's entirely healthy or normal behavior for children anyway.

    So, I agree that golf, or any other sport for that matter, really should be fun for kids. But I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for parents to push their kids a long when they're being lazy, impulsive, and short-sighted. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach a child that if he or she makes a commitment to play in a tournament (costing the parents time and money for entry fees and travel), that the right and responsible thing to do is to prepare appropriately."

    As with most things, finding the right balance is key, and it's not the same for ever kid...they're all different. What works best for one may not work at all for another. It's situational leadership (parenting).

    I agree ... Youth sports are like swimming. You can't just throw your kids in the deep end and tell them to "have fun." You've got to teach them how to succeed.

    And your story is great ... you pushed your child, they loved the sport, and it was a success. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

    The problem arises when the parent pushes, and the child obviously doesn't love the sport ... or the parent pushes too hard, and the child learns to hate the sport. But the parent keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. That's when the supporting parent becomes the overbearing parent, and it becomes about the adult, not the child.

    A big clue is when the parent starts using the pronoun "we" to discuss the child's progress. "We had a good tournament today." "We scored 3 goals today." "We had a homerun and threw a no-hitter today."

    don't buy this at all. Golf in this has become a team element of we. Even the pros like JT ect use the term We because you are a team. So saying we had 3 birdies today does not make you overbearing parent. Most people would consider a caddy player a team an a "WE"

    You're not on Tour, you're not a professional caddy and you're not playing for millions. This is about your child, not you.

    I dunno Tot, I can see it both ways. I've witnessed parent caddies who are wonderful out there with their kids. The kid's happy and having fun and enjoying the camaraderie and bonding with the parent in the heat of competition. In those cases I see nothing wrong with using "we" as the pronoun indicating a team effort, and ive even heard the kids use it.

    On the other hand I've witnessed some nightmares as well...lol. in those cases the parent just needs to STFU. 😁

    I've seen great parent coaches in other sports, too. And yes, there are always exceptions, but 99.9% of the time, whenever the parent starts using "we" instead of "she/he", the parent is inserting themselves and making them self part of the story.

    I understand doing the activity together, but you have to make the child's success their own. Way too many parents today are looking for fulfillment through their kids, and whether they know it or not, this puts an incredible strain and stress on children.

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  • TripleBogeysrbetterTripleBogeysrbetter Members Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    On the other hand I've witnessed some nightmares as well...lol. in those cases the parent just needs to STFU. 😁

    Glad my daughter aged out of these two girls group. She seemed to be paired with them all the time. After about 7 holes you realize why the dads weren't there. It was a train wreck. The moms were yelling and the girls were crying each time.

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  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Yep - number of daddy caddies at the am sums it up. I think I heard on today’s Breed podcast that there were a significant number of them in the field. And we’re talking collegiate golfers for the most part. Only reason you don’t see this at the junior am is bc it’s not allowed (parent-caddies).

    A Caddie at a USGA event is going to run you $360 minimum (most people just hand them 4 benjamins). Mandatory pay for 2 practice rounds and 2 tournament rounds. Getting a good caddie is 50/50. With the price tag you pay to get to the event, hotel room minimum 4 nights, eating 6 days, I would save the $360.00 and carry my kids bag.

    Either way, if it’s a financial issue, you need an over-involved or over-committed parent. The cost of golf, tennis, hockey and other sports are so much that you need to be making or have saved X to prudently be spending it on the costs of annual junior golf. If you are going into debt to fund junior golf, you are over-committed. Not that being over-committed is wrong, but you are in the same boat as an overbearing or over-involved parent.

    Disagree on this one. Plenty of kids that can't financially afford to play AJGA events as well as 36+ hole events where you need to stay a few days. These same people will play in USGA qualifiers, and it is smart. Qualifying for just one USGA event will get you scholarship opportunities. If you qualify, you need to go and play in them not matter what the cost is to get there. If you need to cut corners on costs, you cut them.

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @heavy_hitter said:
    I think "We" is appropriate. You are out there as a cheerleader. You are pushing, working, giving advice. The Caddies feels all the ups and downs of the player because you want success. If you give them a bad number it is the Caddie messing up, not the kid. Therefore "We" had a good day or "We" had a bad day.

    Agreed 100%. Definitely depends on the kid and the parent, but when you're out there together you're a team. One of the best compliments I ever got was from a USGA official. My kid made the US Women's Am at 16 yoa in Portland OR. I offered to get her a local caddy, but she said wanted me on the bag. After the first two rounds of stroke play the USGA official (older woman) who had been assigned to our group pulled us both aside and said, "I've been doing this a long,long time and I've got to tell you, I've never seen a better parent-child partnership on the course!" She missed match play by a few strokes, but that compliment alone was enough for both of us to call the entire experience a tremendous success!

    That's not to say it was always perfect. I certainly made my share of mistakes along the way and looking back would have handled certain situations differently, but I always tried to learn and improve as a dad/coach/caddy.

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  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 9,115 ClubWRX

    @heavy_hitter said:
    I think "We" is appropriate. You are out there as a cheerleader. You are pushing, working, giving advice. The Caddies feels all the ups and downs of the player because you want success. If you give them a bad number it is the Caddie messing up, not the kid. Therefore "We" had a good day or "We" had a bad day.

    One more thing. Although I'm thinking 'We', I don't really say it if someone is asking me about a round. > @dpb5031 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:
    I think "We" is appropriate. You are out there as a cheerleader. You are pushing, working, giving advice. The Caddies feels all the ups and downs of the player because you want success. If you give them a bad number it is the Caddie messing up, not the kid. Therefore "We" had a good day or "We" had a bad day.

    Agreed 100%. Definitely depends on the kid and the parent, but when you're out there together you're a team. One of the best compliments I ever got was from a USGA official. My kid made the US Women's Am at 16 yoa in Portland OR. I offered to get her a local caddy, but she said wanted me on the bag. After the first two rounds of stroke play the USGA official (older woman) who had been assigned to our group pulled us both aside and said, "I've been doing this a long,long time and I've got to tell you, I've never seen a better parent-child partnership on the course!" She missed match play by a few strokes, but that compliment alone was enough for both of us to call the entire experience a tremendous success!

    That's not to say it was always perfect. I certainly made my share of mistakes along the way and looking back would have handled certain situations differently, but I always tried to learn and improve as a dad/coach/caddy.

    That's awesome @dpb5031 .
    If my son ever makes it to some high level am events, I'm not sure I would caddy for him. I'd love to, but would probably be better off watching from the side. Even at his age, there are times I will actually hold my breath when he is about to hit a tough shot or strokes a must make putt. Just not healthy for me. Yah, I'm weird and overbearing. LOL

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @kekoa said:

    @heavy_hitter said:
    I think "We" is appropriate. You are out there as a cheerleader. You are pushing, working, giving advice. The Caddies feels all the ups and downs of the player because you want success. If you give them a bad number it is the Caddie messing up, not the kid. Therefore "We" had a good day or "We" had a bad day.

    One more thing. Although I'm thinking 'We', I don't really say it if someone is asking me about a round. > @dpb5031 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:
    I think "We" is appropriate. You are out there as a cheerleader. You are pushing, working, giving advice. The Caddies feels all the ups and downs of the player because you want success. If you give them a bad number it is the Caddie messing up, not the kid. Therefore "We" had a good day or "We" had a bad day.

    Agreed 100%. Definitely depends on the kid and the parent, but when you're out there together you're a team. One of the best compliments I ever got was from a USGA official. My kid made the US Women's Am at 16 yoa in Portland OR. I offered to get her a local caddy, but she said wanted me on the bag. After the first two rounds of stroke play the USGA official (older woman) who had been assigned to our group pulled us both aside and said, "I've been doing this a long,long time and I've got to tell you, I've never seen a better parent-child partnership on the course!" She missed match play by a few strokes, but that compliment alone was enough for both of us to call the entire experience a tremendous success!

    That's not to say it was always perfect. I certainly made my share of mistakes along the way and looking back would have handled certain situations differently, but I always tried to learn and improve as a dad/coach/caddy.

    That's awesome @dpb5031 .
    If my son ever makes it to some high level am events, I'm not sure I would caddy for him. I'd love to, but would probably be better off watching from the side. Even at his age, there are times I will actually hold my breath when he is about to hit a tough shot or strokes a must make putt. Just not healthy for me. Yah, I'm weird and overbearing. LOL

    No your not...lol...that's perfectly normal! I often look away when my daughter faces a tough or important shot and just look at her target instead. For some reason that's less stressful to me...lol! The anxiety can be paralyzing at times!

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  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @heavy_hitter said:

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Yep - number of daddy caddies at the am sums it up. I think I heard on today’s Breed podcast that there were a significant number of them in the field. And we’re talking collegiate golfers for the most part. Only reason you don’t see this at the junior am is bc it’s not allowed (parent-caddies).

    A Caddie at a USGA event is going to run you $360 minimum (most people just hand them 4 benjamins). Mandatory pay for 2 practice rounds and 2 tournament rounds. Getting a good caddie is 50/50. With the price tag you pay to get to the event, hotel room minimum 4 nights, eating 6 days, I would save the $360.00 and carry my kids bag.

    Either way, if it’s a financial issue, you need an over-involved or over-committed parent. The cost of golf, tennis, hockey and other sports are so much that you need to be making or have saved X to prudently be spending it on the costs of annual junior golf. If you are going into debt to fund junior golf, you are over-committed. Not that being over-committed is wrong, but you are in the same boat as an overbearing or over-involved parent.

    Disagree on this one. Plenty of kids that can't financially afford to play AJGA events as well as 36+ hole events where you need to stay a few days. These same people will play in USGA qualifiers, and it is smart. Qualifying for just one USGA event will get you scholarship opportunities. If you qualify, you need to go and play in them not matter what the cost is to get there. If you need to cut corners on costs, you cut them.

    You’re probably right - over-committed doesn’t equal over-bearing. That’s why I made it a point to say that there’s nothing wrong with going into debt or being less prudent to give your child all the opportunities at success. What I should have said is that a over-committed parent wants the same success for their children as an over-bearing parent. It’s just the latter can get a little out of control.

  • TripleBogeysrbetterTripleBogeysrbetter Members Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    No your not...lol...that's perfectly normal! I often look away when my daughter faces a tough or important shot and just look at her target instead. For some reason that's less stressful to me...lol! The anxiety can be paralyzing at times!

    I try to think positive thoughts the whole time while he is going through his routine.

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  • bulls9999bulls9999 Members Posts: 760 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Aug 20, 2019 2:26pm #60

    I remember one junior golf tournament my son was in.... I mean 'real junior', like ~8 yrs old. We just finished a short par3 across a pond (maybe 90-100 yrds?) and moved on to the next tee box, just above the green. While our group of kids were getting ready to tee off, we hear this loud 'BAM!', and an angry dad was showing his displeasure that his son put his ball into the pond and threw his full water bottle into the tin garbage can. Not only was there a resounding 'crash/BAM' but followed with yelling so loudly, "that is pathetic that you can't make it over the water!". We all felt trully sorry for that youngster, it was a hot humid day (I'm sure that father would have wished he kept that water bottle). There were several more bouts of yelling behind us and we knew who it was. At that age they only played 9 holes, and at the end of the 9, since we were far from the club house, they sent vans to pick up the kids/clubs and bring them back. The group behind us caught up to us while waiting for the van and the dad interjects again.... "no, my son is not riding back....he played like crap so he's going to walk/carry his bag all the way back to the club house", saying that to the amazement of all the other parents, kids, and the van driver. When we got back to the club house, we went to the scoreboard to see the tally of all the scores, and there's the parents of that youngster, with the boy, and all the time the dad was loudly berating the son who was in tears. I couldn't help myself, and although my wife didn't want me to interfere, she let go of my arm as I laid into that parent: "Sir, you're the reason that kids grow up and kill their parents in their sleep. Stop your incessant whining, yelling, and berating of your son...it's hot as **** out here, everyone is sweating like a pig, and he's trying his best...hard to do when you are riding him so hard that he can't even think. YOU ARE THE REASON YOUR SON COULDN'T PLAY TO HIS POTENTIAL... YOU, AND YOU ALONE ARE AT FAULT". I found myself yelling so loudly, I drew everyone's attention that was within 50-yrds, as if ready to get into a fight (I must have been around 43 at the time, he must have been ~30), but that dad didn't know what to do or how to respond since we were surrounded by all the other kids and their parents, and he just stormed off pissed off. The guy's wife and son stood there as he stormed off, looked at me and thanked me. I was actually worked up a bit, even shaking, thinking, dang what did I just unleash, and that I just about got into it with someone.

    GHIN Index 13.8
  • DZClarkDZClark Members Posts: 196 ✭✭✭

    @CJPenny said:
    Wow, I used to work junior golf tournaments as a summer job, and the parents of the better players would almost all be in the 50+ range. Won't comment on parenting since I'm not a parent, but I'd be shocked if a large portion of today's new pros and high profile college golfers didn't have at least one parent in the one of the highest categories.

    Interesting view here, one that I am actually living. Kids ranging in age from 25 to 1 year (in 11 days). I will tell you now that I am 48 years old that my patience level with my kids is so much higher now than with my oldest. Also, I have more time to "invest" in my kids now. When my oldest was growing up I was forced to work as much as possible to pay the bills (or it seemed like it to my young self at the time). Now, I have more financial security I can afford to work from home, take the time, join the country club, etc. all things that put the younger ones in a much better position to succeed at a sport like golf.
    Also, less of my identity is tied up in how well they do at a sport than when I was younger. My oldest son was a soccer player and I loved when he succeeded because it made him feel good, I told myself. But in reality, he being one of the best on the team meant I had done something right. Now, I just want my daughters to be happy. My hope is they will be happy winning and if someone is better, they will want to improve, but I can't make that decision for them.
    I will and am willing to invest the time and money in an equal amount as they are to achieving success in whatever they choose. I will not, however, invest the time or money into something I have to force them into.

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