Another "Pros versus Ams" thread. This time it's a hypothetical....

[deadsolid...shank]

I think it's pretty cool to have two guys in here who actually have experience playing at these levels.

What did Obee say, about 1,100 yards difference. I know it doesn't work out exactly, but that is an average of just over 60 yards per hole. That makes a big difference when you're talking about upper level amateurs.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1420321663' post='10680703']
[quote name='rayrobinson' timestamp='1420320648' post='10680611'][quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1420320295' post='10680581']
Ray, I've got some questions pending that Obee may address, but you seem all fired up to derail what is a truly interesting thread.

Trying to learn.
[/quote]

Sorry gents your right and sorry to Obee, I thought it was a hypothetical question , I didn't realize it had already happened.

By the way not trying to upset anyone , im just pointing out the difference I have personally seen between scratch , pro and tour pro, I haven't played with a top 10 world player.

peace.[/quote]

Much peace to you as well, sir! :-)
[/quote]

Great on you both, now back to those "layers" . . . :-)

[isaacbm]

Obee

Where do you think the 7 shot difference is? It seems like the 1000 yard difference in distance should be more of a factor than it actually is. I mean, if the 4 ams all played from the tips on the course described, I would expect more than one round shot under 75 from that group. But why can't the same players shoot under 68 from the 6000 yard tees?

Clearly distance isn't as big of a factor at the scratch level as the course/slope ratings would suggest.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1420322384' post='10680757']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1420314942' post='10680173']
[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1420312555' post='10679987']
you couldn't hold a wedge on a green? how is that possible?
[/quote]it's very frustrating!!

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard
[/quote]Hey RP how would you have bet it if you and I were there betting on it? Or would we have to done a Vegas flip to take one team or the other??
[/quote]Vegas/Birdie Flips against that crew?

At what, $50-100/point?

LMAO, on Rickie's first or second round I'd be ready to vomit on #6,'7 tops.

That's not even lookin at his partner's ball.

Maybe from the reds but not on those greens at that time.

See, THAT'S where the advantage comes for the Ams if they're strong 7i-up Players, which I would expect three legit Pluses, which these guys are, to be. Even the scratch should have a nice short/scoring game, however where the advantage could be negated, regardless of length is with glass greens cuz you can hit greens in reg all day against some other Am, but against these guys, you've got to throw darts and give yourself legit birdie looks, I'm talkin 12'-15' and in, with an 8i-LW in your hand. To be at 18-30' and two putt ain't gonna cut it.

1100 yards difference and say, 10.5-11 greens, well, you can see the difference in being able to fire at a pin.

The other thing is concentration. The Ams, and obviously these guys can, has to be able to focus on THEIR game and not become intimidated, mesmerized or side tracked by what the Pros are doing or trying to match them. I've seen legit +4-5's get "spooked" or taken out if their game trying to go shot for shot and they're landing approaches at 20-25' and it's like "Dude, that ain't a birdie op, focus."

I have to say that the game that my teacher set up for me with Mike Souchak was probably the most eye opening and best learning experience of my golfing life, even though it cost me $1500, which all things considered, was not nearly as bad as it could have been, lol. To watch a guy, and remember, he was 61-62yo at the time, but to see someone just step up and throw darts with 5i-56° wedge and real off 5 straight birds, one eagle and a nine of 29(Par 35) is an eye opening experience.

So, forgetting about the Pros, if Ob's and his Boys take advantage of the shortened course by throwin darts, getting birdie and a few eagle ops and makin em, then it's a horse race, cuz within a few strokes, you know that the Pros are gonna do, barring a course record round. That's the difference- giving yourself birdie/eagle ops and makin your share.

Plus Stu, I don't bet on anyone but myself/my team. Win, lose or draw, it's gotta be on me, lol.

And Stu, I have a feeling that my days of Vegas are over, at least for a while-

Hell, I walk into the left side of door ways 4-5 times a week now-'you definitely don't want me with a 4i in my hand for money

Happy New Year Bro

Stay Well My Friend,
Richard

[Bonesaw]

Excellent thread. Guess it really is a birdie contest.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1420298207' post='10678925']
[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1420266811' post='10678117']
[quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1420073500' post='10668055']
On a scale of 0-10 on the envy meter, reading threads of guys going to The Masters = 8, this thread = 10.

Sounds like a really fun experience and a great time. Thanks for sharing the story.

You've probably observed this many times, and others here have suggested it, but do you find the pros' long game a difference maker, and whether it is or isn't how did the pro/amateur differences manifest themselves in shotmaking?
[/quote]

So at our level (40+ year old moderately competitive amateurs), we all have pretty big weaknesses in our games. I'm a shortish hitter, for instance, and I have difficulty elevating the ball with my longer clubs); another buddy hits it long enough, but has trouble figuring out what he's doing wrong in the middle of rounds and "correcting" himself; Another buddy has simply gotten older and is short off the tee and with all of his clubs, so he just doesn't have the ability to play well on very long courses anymore, etc.

All of us actually have decent short games with one or two of us having very solid short games. They are not at the level of a top professional, certainly, but they are good enough that we aren't losing many strokes there to pros.

But with the pros, first of all, they have no true weaknesses. Every part of their game is solid. The biggest difference I see is in their ability to hit it far and straight with their drivers, and then hit it much closer, much more often and much more easily take trouble out of play from 175 to 250. It's not even close. They make birdie fairly regularly, par frequently, and the occasional bogey, and we make the very rare birdie, par sometimes, bogey sometimes, and double way too frequently. It's a big, big difference.

And when you factor in the par 5's, it's just an amazing difference. One of the big reasons the pros score as low as they do is because of the way they are able to dominate the par 5's on virtually every course they play. They do that because 1) They crush their drivers long and straight. 2) They are amazingly accurate and consistent from 200 to 250; and 3) They have great short games. But 2/3 of that equation is the long clubs.

Now don't get me wrong, The short game is ridiculously important, and for some solid mid-ams, the biggest gap between their game and a pro's game is in the short game (I have a buddy with the pitching yips), but that's not where most of us decent competitive ams lose to the pros, it's in that longer area that we make our bogeys and doubles and they make pars and birdies. Big difference. :-)
[/quote]

Thanks, I should have stayed up a little later! This is kind of what I guessed, but was curious, and I know you've posted about paying with a pro before (Pernice?).

Your belief in "levels" is interesting, but we all would want to believe that. Is this something more personal, empirical? My goal, postponed by some nagging injuries for two seasons (finally got my knee diagnosed, should have done that much sooner), is to improve to a point where shooting under par for 18 actually happens period, and once in awhile. That may be a couple of your described levels for me. Shoot in the 70s regularly, but course rating of 67.5, par 70 where I play, and still a handicp of 9.8, so I've got work to do. A little older than you, and I don't hit it any wrx 290, and I can see areas that can be improved. For me, hitting fairways, hitting greens better from 130+ and making putts 5-10 feet. Getting in shape again and not trying to force too much out of each club also on the list. Anything in your observing really good ams/pros that gives insight into achieving different levels? I see it as motivation and focused work, maybe nothing earth shattering, but always looking for others' insight.
[/quote]You hit it Hawk-

Though I move it out a little further, for quite a few Ams, 150yds is a 7/8i. Regardless, that's got to be automatic, on the green, and should be inside 20', depending on cap, however there is absolutely zero excuse to be a 12 cap or below, to be standing in the FW with a great lie, and leave a 7/8i in a green side bunker. None!!

That being said, it happens. You throw a great 8i into a tight left front pin placement on a green like Ob's describes and it hits and runs through into the green side rough or bunker. I spent 1/2 of my short game practice on green side chips, pitches and bunker play. You land green side, or green side bunker, you should be aiming for the pin and expecting to get up/down.

1) Drives in FW, first cut
2) 150yds in
3) Putts 8' and in
4) Green side/bunker up and down

You work on and improve those areas and you'll be dropping down to a low single.

Take care Hawk and have a Great 2015

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1420330914' post='10681369']
[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1420322384' post='10680757']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1420314942' post='10680173']
[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1420312555' post='10679987']
you couldn't hold a wedge on a green? how is that possible?
[/quote]it's very frustrating!!

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard
[/quote]Hey RP how would you have bet it if you and I were there betting on it? Or would we have to done a Vegas flip to take one team or the other??
[/quote]Vegas/Birdie Flips against that crew?

At what, $50-100/point?

LMAO, on Rickie's first or second round I'd be ready to vomit on #6,'7 tops.

That's not even lookin at his partner's ball.

Maybe from the reds but not on those greens at that time.

See, THAT'S where the advantage comes for the Ams if they're strong 7i-up Players, which I would expect three legit Pluses, which these guys are, to be. Even the scratch should have a nice short/scoring game, however where the advantage could be negated, regardless of length is with glass greens cuz you can hit greens in reg all day against some other Am, but against these guys, you've got to throw darts and give yourself legit birdie looks, I'm talkin 12'-15' and in, with an 8i-LW in your hand. To be at 18-30' and two putt ain't gonna cut it.

1100 yards difference and say, 10.5-11 greens, well, you can see the difference in being able to fire at a pin.

The other thing is concentration. The Ams, and obviously these guys can, has to be able to focus on THEIR game and not become intimidated, mesmerized or side tracked by what the Pros are doing or trying to match them. I've seen legit +4-5's get "spooked" or taken out if their game trying to go shot for shot and they're landing approaches at 20-25' and it's like "Dude, that ain't a birdie op, focus."

I have to say that the game that my teacher set up for me with Mike Souchak was probably the most eye opening and best learning experience of my golfing life, even though it cost me $1500, which all things considered, was not nearly as bad as it could have been, lol. To watch a guy, and remember, he was 61-62yo at the time, but to see someone just step up and throw darts with 5i-56° wedge and real off 5 straight birds, one eagle and a nine of 29(Par 35) is an eye opening experience.

So, forgetting about the Pros, if Ob's and his Boys take advantage of the shortened course by throwin darts, getting birdie and a few eagle ops and makin em, then it's a horse race, cuz within a few strokes, you know that the Pros are gonna do, barring a course record round. That's the difference- giving yourself birdie/eagle ops and makin your share.

Plus Stu, I don't bet on anyone but myself/my team. Win, lose or draw, it's gotta be on me, lol.

And Stu, I have a feeling that my days of Vegas are over, at least for a while-

Hell, I walk into the left side of door ways 4-5 times a week now-'you definitely don't want me with a 4i in my hand for money

Happy New Year Bro

Stay Well My Friend,
Richard
[/quote]Actually my high rolling Vegas days are over too but back in the day I would have took some kind of "action" on that match. As a general rule I would not bet all the time on another match but sometimes I would. And I never bet ball games period. Oh by the way I would have done the Vegas flip for $100 a point heck like my old man "Go Down Gambling". And shoot I would take you for a partner even if you hit the left side of the door 10 times a week. I always liked being the under dog anyhow

[Vindog]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1420345694' post='10682563']1) Drives in FW, first cut
2) 150yds in
3) Putts 8' and in
4) Green side/bunker up and down

You work on and improve those areas and you'll be dropping down to a low single.

[/quote]

Okay lets run it down.

1) How does right rough sound?
2) I'm actually pretty good here, believe it or not
3) Not so much too good here, my pace is terrible most of the time.
4) I can at least get it OUT of the bunker now in one stroke, sooo....

So things are looking up!!

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1420363069' post='10683077']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1420330914' post='10681369']
[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1420322384' post='10680757']
[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1420314942' post='10680173']
[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1420312555' post='10679987']
you couldn't hold a wedge on a green? how is that possible?
[/quote]it's very frustrating!!

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard
[/quote]Hey RP how would you have bet it if you and I were there betting on it? Or would we have to done a Vegas flip to take one team or the other??
[/quote]Vegas/Birdie Flips against that crew?

At what, $50-100/point?

LMAO, on Rickie's first or second round I'd be ready to vomit on #6,'7 tops.

That's not even lookin at his partner's ball.

Maybe from the reds but not on those greens at that time.

See, THAT'S where the advantage comes for the Ams if they're strong 7i-up Players, which I would expect three legit Pluses, which these guys are, to be. Even the scratch should have a nice short/scoring game, however where the advantage could be negated, regardless of length is with glass greens cuz you can hit greens in reg all day against some other Am, but against these guys, you've got to throw darts and give yourself legit birdie looks, I'm talkin 12'-15' and in, with an 8i-LW in your hand. To be at 18-30' and two putt ain't gonna cut it.

1100 yards difference and say, 10.5-11 greens, well, you can see the difference in being able to fire at a pin.

The other thing is concentration. The Ams, and obviously these guys can, has to be able to focus on THEIR game and not become intimidated, mesmerized or side tracked by what the Pros are doing or trying to match them. I've seen legit +4-5's get "spooked" or taken out if their game trying to go shot for shot and they're landing approaches at 20-25' and it's like "Dude, that ain't a birdie op, focus."

I have to say that the game that my teacher set up for me with Mike Souchak was probably the most eye opening and best learning experience of my golfing life, even though it cost me $1500, which all things considered, was not nearly as bad as it could have been, lol. To watch a guy, and remember, he was 61-62yo at the time, but to see someone just step up and throw darts with 5i-56° wedge and real off 5 straight birds, one eagle and a nine of 29(Par 35) is an eye opening experience.

So, forgetting about the Pros, if Ob's and his Boys take advantage of the shortened course by throwin darts, getting birdie and a few eagle ops and makin em, then it's a horse race, cuz within a few strokes, you know that the Pros are gonna do, barring a course record round. That's the difference- giving yourself birdie/eagle ops and makin your share.

Plus Stu, I don't bet on anyone but myself/my team. Win, lose or draw, it's gotta be on me, lol.

And Stu, I have a feeling that my days of Vegas are over, at least for a while-

Hell, I walk into the left side of door ways 4-5 times a week now-'you definitely don't want me with a 4i in my hand for money

Happy New Year Bro

Stay Well My Friend,
Richard
[/quote]Actually my high rolling Vegas days are over too but back in the day I would have took some kind of "action" on that match. As a general rule I would not bet all the time on another match but sometimes I would. And I never bet ball games period. Oh by the way I would have done the Vegas flip for $100 a point heck like my old man "Go Down Gambling". And shoot I would take you for a partner even if you hit the left side of the door 10 times a week. I always liked being the under dog anyhow
[/quote]

Just aim Richard for the right edge of the door,............you'll be golden.

[Hawkeye77]

Left side of the door Richard? I recall you saying your normal flight was a draw. Study some Trevino and Nicklaus and you'll be right down the center of the door frame! :-)

[Maddog10]

Great story OP, and sounds like an awesome experience. I've met Rickie a few times, mainly at motocross races and once at the PGA Championship practice round last year. He has always been a super nice guy to me and seems to go out of his way to actually make conversation. That may be mainly because I've always caught him away from the pressure of a tournament (except for the PGA Champ which was a shorter conversation), but at the races I've seen him at we have talked for 10+ minutes at a time. He also doesn't get recognized nearly as much in that setting either though.

Sounds like a great time. Mark me down as jealous.

[PepsiDuck]

Obee, great thread and a pleasure to read all the responses. Definitely inspires me to work harder this winter to get ready for a hopefully more successful run at competitive golf, i.e., keeping tournament scores under the triple digits...

[Brooks_Cupcake]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1420321663' post='10680703'][quote name='rayrobinson' timestamp='1420320648' post='10680611'][quote name='Hawkeye77' timestamp='1420320295' post='10680581']
Ray, I've got some questions pending that Obee may address, but you seem all fired up to derail what is a truly interesting thread.

Trying to learn.
[/quote]

Sorry gents your right and sorry to Obee, I thought it was a hypothetical question , I didn't realize it had already happened.

By the way not trying to upset anyone , im just pointing out the difference I have personally seen between scratch , pro and tour pro, I haven't played with a top 10 world player.

peace.[/quote]

Much peace to you as well, sir! :-)[/quote]

The only person's quotes I read in the forum are the only ones that matter...go Obee! Best thread I've read in a while.

[spider]

Great thread again Obee!

thanks for the good read

[J_Tizzle]

Interesting topic and a bit different than the standard type of "pro vs joe" thread that tends to show up.

I've done a few of these things were we play from the women's tees at various courses and from what I've seen its easier, but not a whole lot easier to be honest. Your drives miss fat parts of the fairways and run up into very skinny parts of the fairway or around the green where guys that hit it 250 wouldn't typically hit it to. And like others have said, with greens that firm, I can't spin it from that short, so that would actually be a positive for the pros. After I did the math, and just on average, the difference between the two yardages are 67 yards per hole.

So just using general numbers here but, figure the pro's hole is 470 vs 400 for the ams, 300 yard pro drive vs 250 for the am, leaves 170 for the pro vs 150 for the am. Chances are that the pro and am are hitting roughly the same stick from that yardage, so you negate the yardage advantage, in which case I take the pros.

I know there will be examples where the ams get 150 yards on a par 5 lets say, but also examples where the ams get 10 yards on a par 3.

So given all that, I really think the yardage advantage is minimal when you really think about how far these guys hit it, so then you're on a course that they play all the time more or less. I like the chances of the pros shooting a bunch of 67s vs the ams from a closer yardage.

Final verdict - pros win by 6 shots.


And just a quick edit, I remember being told by a Nationwide pro I played in a Pro Am with forever ago "the worst putter on the PGA tour is still a better putter than anyone you've ever played thats not a PGA pro". Take 4 of those guys guys maybe 6 shots isn't enough...

[widow-maker]

Interesting read. I think one of the advantages for the ams was that it was a course they were very familiar with. That adds a lot of confidence. Also, the fact that Obee explained that most of the ams were pretty good short game players certainly would be advantageous given the yardage discrepancy.

Before I saw the results, I was thinking that the ams had a chance, so I wasn't surprised at how close days 2 and 3 ended up being. And to me, if you're used to it, putting can be easier on greens that run true and fast, and it isn't necessarily a huge advantage for a pro. My brother is a member at Hazeltine and their greens always run fast, and he can putt the bejabbers out of them. He knocks in everything because he's got the speed down and he trusts his lines. He putts a lot better there than when he travels.

[Apex93]

Great thread, Obee - I'm amazed you took 1 out of 3. I've seen high-level ams, and I've seen tour pros, and I still didn't think 1000 yards would have made a difference.

Do you think super-firm greens made a huge difference? Every tourney I've played where stimps get above 11 tends to raise amateur scores pretty significantly, while it seems to be standard for the pros. I guess if you're comfortable on the course, it's kind of negated, but that's what would've killed me in this scenario.

[Dave230]

I think it's interesting and very true what you said about levels. The thing is there are different levels within professional golf never mind amateur golf. I'd go with these as the levels of golf.

[b]Elite greatness:[/b] Currently it's probably only Rory McIlroy can blow away a field and be two or three shots better than average every day on the toughest set-up against the best golfers. Tiger Woods was this level for ages so was Hogan, Nicklaus etc.

[b]Elite professional: [/b]Rickie Fowler is in this category and has the ability to brush the elite greatness level. They have a few shots on the average tour pro over a season and that's why they win tournaments and do well in majors.

[b]Solid Tour Pro: [/b]They do enough to make a good living out of the game and might even win if they played a few rounds of their life together. They have a few shots on the struggling tour pro allowing them security.

[b]Struggling/mini-tour professional: [/b]A lot of them are probably as good as the solid tour pro but throw away a few shots around because of some flaw or maybe just a confidence issue.

[b]Elite tournament amateur:[/b] Probably not much in the difference here between them and the struggling professional. It would depend on factors such as confidence.

[b]Scratch player: [/b][size=4]Giving a few shots to the pros but more importantly, probably more than a few on a tough, unfamiliar course.[/size]

And then the levels continue to l[b]ow handicapper, mid-handicapper[/b], [b]high-handicapper [/b]and[b] beginner.[/b]

[Pure745]

Great playing with you last weekend Obee.. you and your posse on Sunday!

[CBRADGO]

What a story, WRX TOTY for sure! I've played with mini tour and struggling tour players a couple times and got waxed, to hang in there with them and actually beat them, regardless of tees, is something else. Distance is a great equalizer but definitely not the biggest. Maybe one day we'll get to experience this, until then, I need to practice more it sounds like!!!

[SurfDuffer]

Obee, You're my heeeeeroooeee.....