New Irons and maybe incorrect shafts?

[titleist320]

So I got a new set of P7TW irons today after getting a full bag fitting done at Club Champion recently. Driver,3 wood and p790 2 iron shafts have preformed almost exactly on my skytrak as they did on the Trackman. A little drop off because of the temp in my garage but I expect that.. launch angle and spin are very close. So of course I am very happy to see that.

On the other hand my irons are not performing as expected. My current clubs are Mizuno mp59 with DG s300 shafts. Loft and lie are standard. I launch the ball what i think is very high and in a good head wind this will cause my ball to balloon. So my main purpose with this fitting was to get my launch angle down. I am currently a +2 handicap, with a driver speed of 115 to 117ish. With my irons I have an attach angle of about 3 to 4 down and take a medium side divot. This was my very first fitting and after trying about 10 to 12 shafts the fitter landed on the Project X LZ 6.5 for me and the head that I hit the most consistent was the P7TW amd the Mizuno mp20 MMC. In that fitting my current MP59 6 iron data was... 93.9 mph club speed, 129.3 mph ball speed, 18.5 launch, 6984 spin with a carry of 181.4.

The p7tw data in that same fitting with the Project X LZ 6.5 was... 93.6 mph club speed, 130.4 ball speed, 16.5 launch, 6193 spin and 187.6 carry. Standard lie and loft.(not tigers specs)

The above data is on the trackman at club champion. So I order the LZ shafts based on this information and when I get them today I hit them against my current mp59s on my skytrak and that data is below.

Skytrak mp59 6 iron... ball speed 123mph, launch 18*, 5733 spin and carry of 180 yards.

Skytrak p7tw 6 iron (bent 1* strong).... 124 mph ball speed, 18.6* launch, 5500 spin and carry of 184 yards.

I was blown away with how high I was launching these irons compared to the fitting numbers and I was expecting them to launch even a bit lower since I had them build 1* strong.

 

This trend carries on through out the bag as well.. 7 iron data is:

Mp59- 120 mph, 19.5* launch, 5761 spin and 174 carry.

P7tw- 120 mph, 20.7* launch, 6279 spin and 171 carry.

I guess my question is, did I get the wrong shafts to lower my ball flight? The dispersion is still very good with the LZ shafts.. better than half with my s300 shafts so that's a huge plus. The LZ shafts feel great but I just feel like at that launch angle I am going to lose distance and have a hard time in the wind.

What do you shafts/club gurus think? Should I try different shafts, bend another * strong, etc... I really love the heads so I want to stay with them.

 

 

The skytrak data seems to be accurate comparing 6 iron and driver, 3 wood data. It is a little lower but it is located in my garage that is not heated and it is about 45* today and of course it was 70* in the club champion building.

 

 

[noodle3872]

Can’t give a definitive answer on the shaft selection but comparing data from 2 different LM’s isn’t wise. Stick with your Skytrac data. I think the lofts of your MP 59’s may be off if you’re getting a 6 yard difference between 6i and 7i. I have used the LZ before and found them to be spinny. If you wanted your launch to come down, regular PX would have been a better choice or even DG X100 given your CHS with 6i.

[titleist320]

We tried both the regular PX and DG x100 and the number were not as good as the LZ for some reason. The guy doing my fitting said that he tried the LZ because he finds it will often lower the dynamic loft at impact and that is what he said was happening in my case.

 

And I am only comparing the two sets of data because to show that my current irons are launching very close to the trackman data so the LZ data I am getting is probably also very accurate and I really am launching these higher for some reason vs what we saw during the fitting.

[noodle3872]

Could be as simple as the matt you are hitting off of at home vs at Club Champion. Same ball too?

[titleist320]

My numbers with the DG x100 in the 6 iron were- 93.5 swing speed, 128.6 ball speed, 17.3 launch, 6833 spin and 183.4 carry.

 

So little lower ball speed, higher launch, higher spin and shorter... not by a big amount but noticeable.

[titleist320]

I was hitting off the same mat at both location... fiberbuilt mat. So that should not be the issue.

Ball could be a little difference.. I am using the Pro V1 here at home and during the fitting it was a combo of different high end balls, V1, V1x, tp5x, etc.. but that would not explain why my current mp59s are putting up very close numbers and the LZ shafts are launching so much higher than during the fitting.

[calfan36]

Just curious, what's your driver ball speed?

[titleist320]

169.5 mph on trackman

[ChipNRun]

The 2009 promise of the rifle Project X shafts was "a slightly higher launch angle and penetrating ball flight."

in 2018, the PX LZ promised "for players who want the performance of Project X, but with a slightly higher ball flight and enhanced feel."

So, you get the decent launch, and a more moderate ball flight than the original PX.

One note: the old DG S300 had a softer flex than the PX 6.0 (DG FCM = 5.8, PX 6.0 FCM = 6.5). After DG low launch, this could lead to higher apex.

Some 10 years later, you would need to test out your new clubs on course to see how they fly.

Also, check loft-lie to resolve 6i-7i bunchup.

[jasonfpga]

I would suggest going back to the fitter at Club Champion and explain the irons aren't working as they said they would. They will work with you to correct it.

[titleist320]

That would typically be an option but I did not buy the irons through them because they were an extra $870 to order through them vs. Ordering directly from TM my self.

Would you still go that route even though I ordered them through TM my self? I didnt think they would do anything.

[taylorx300]

Your launch and spin numbers will change for the better once you hit off of grass.

dont sweat the “simulator” numbers from balls hit off a mat.

[WristySwing]

Nope, TM won't do anything and neither will CC as you didn't buy from CC and TM didn't do the fitting. Your mystery spin is answered by Taylormade soft-steps everything 1x as standard in their iron builds from the factory. They assume you got fit using their adapter at a demo day which is heavy and artificially inflates head weight., making the shafts play like they are SSx1. So unless specified, you are playing PX LZ 6.5 SSx1. TM has done this forever along with auto-tipping their driver shafts 1 inch vs. 1/2 inch convention from everybody else.

If someone has more current knowledge on this please jump in but this was standard even up until mid 2019 from what I recall (last time I checked).

[Mcaro234]

Yeah sounds like the clubs you bought are not close to what you got fit to. People talk about fittings on these forums all day but not nearly as much talk about build. Both have to be on point in order to see the desired results.

[titleist320]

I guess I will not know until I can get this set and have them checked out to see the true details. We checked the loft and lie of the 6 iron we hit at the fitting so I know it was a standard loft for this set. Standard length 6 iron shaft as well. Swing weight was d3 or d4.. I have to check.

My set i order is supposed to be d3, i degree strong and standard everything else. So everything should match besides being 1* strong which should lower my launch not increase it.. or at least i would think. Lol

[Yuck]

I have issues with a steep angle of decent and fittings done on mats. If I go to any real turf that is not really firm, my results are very different. Not an issue with the 3 and four iron, but anything less, yes.

[3woodvt]

Sounds like a Howard Jones question...He's given the best explanation to the shaft questions to date imo.  Looking forward to following this discussion.  Did you hit the LZ in 7.0?

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/496072/new-and-improved-shaft-chart#latest

 

[titleist320]

Did not hit the LZ in a 7.0.. after much research after the fact of course. I wish I would have hit that and the DG X7 just to see.

[puttingmatt]

I would suspect that hitting off mats are your issue,

That said, these are blades, you can manipulate the

Height by flighting the ball differently. Some forward shaft

lean at impact should do the trick.

[titleist320]

I would tend to agree with you about the mats usually, but in this case I was fitted off of the exact same mat as I have in my home simulator so I do think that is the issue here.

 

And yes I can make the ball launch and fly lower if I change my swing to do that, but this is not something I want to have to do as a normal fix to the issue.

Hoping that someone would have more of a experience related answer to the shafts, or maybe inaccuracy of getting custom clubs from taylormade not being to spec.. or something that would give me to use as a starting ground.

I did get the MMC align grips on this set with 3 pieces of tape which I am sure through off the swing weight and unless TM took this into account and fixed prior to assembly, they are probably not d3 or d4 as I wanted. Which might have something to do with it? I am not sure about that, but you guys might have real world experience with that. I do know this set does not feel like a d3 or 4 swing weight to me, I feel more of the weight towards the grip/shaft vs. the head.

[3woodvt]

I'm no expert but I too am very particular about feel...(don't think mats have anything to do with it) That's why I pasted the link to Howard's 10 year old thread that's still active today in previous quote (read through it as its right up your alley right now)....wish I could spend a day with that dude oversees.  Check it out...the one thing that comes to mind that he stated that has always stuck with me is... Weight, feel, dispersion....  the individual has to be happy with the feel or its all wasted... dispersion speaks for itself...weight affects both... Good luck man!  It seems you're not satisfied and the only thing I know is if a golfer is not happy with the feel of what's going on he/she is going to fix it.... best wishes and look forward to hearing the resolution you find/seek.

 

[WristySwing]

Again, TM softsteps their shafts 1x in every build they do unless specified not to, so they are playing a bit soft. The second issue of grip weight vs. head weight is the balance point of the LZ vs. S300. The LZ, like all Project X product is counterbalanced/backweighted/higher balance point, whatever you want to/are comfortable calling it. This means most of the mass of the shaft is closer to your hands. This has two primary results, one, it gives a heavier handle section sensation to promote a bit lower flight, and two, it makes it harder for the player to rotate their hands through impact to combat a hook. Point 2 could be in part why they are launching higher than you wanted. If they are producing a higher flight through more dynamic loft at impact due to a tougher time closing the face down through the impact zone, bingo you have your answer.
One other aspect that was touched upon above by @ChipNRun above is that although Project X is touted as low launch and low spin by many, it's actually an initially higher launch angle than Dynamic Gold to reach its apex faster. However, where it differs is that once it reaches its apex it stays there longer giving it a flatter looking ball flight. Dynamic Gold on the other hand has a stereotypical "pro" ball flight that stays lower longer and steadily climbs. I can't find any on YouTube at the moment but a good comparison would be watching a ball flight using Top/ProTracer of John Rahm vs. Tiger Woods, you will see the difference in flights for sure.
Lastly, to answer your heavy hands thing with additional info, you have a counterbalanced shaft with built up grips. That will do it too.

[Golfrnut]

 

 

Sorry, but no, what you are describing (second paragraph) is not really a capability that is inherent to a shaft. Actual ballflight/apex doesn't really work the way you are describing either from a physics standpoint. The shaft only changes the dynamic loft properties of the head, the rest is left to the influence of the golfer (AoA, speed, more/less shaft lean, etc). 20* of dynamic loft is 20*, 25* is 25*, etc. That's the only real capability of the shaft itself to influence the launch/spin directly...the rest is left to how it influences the golfer, which is very player dependent.

[titleist320]

I did call yesterday and speak to TM and they told me that they do not Soft step any of there installs unless it is asked for on the build sheet. So they assured me that this install was not soft stepped. I asked them if they used to do this in the past and I was told they have not done it since this guy had been working there (the last two years.)

[Golfrnut]

 

Yeah, I've pulled a number of TM installed shafts from sets...never once seen a soft-stepped set from an off the rack set of clubs personally. That dates back to 200s, R9s, RBZs, TP MCs...that I can think of off the top of my head.

[Golfrnut]

In regards to your first post. I would be apprehensively cautious with how much I would worry to this point. You are off mats, which can skew numbers for the launch and the spin. The fact that the launch came up and the spin went down is consistent with their being some influence there.

There's also two different monitors involved here as well, so there's another variable on what "could" be happening.

[DYOS4]

Please read this comment in the voice of your best golfing friend giving you a hard time. :)

If you plan on only playing on Skytrak, then you didn't accomplish what you wanted. But if you plan on going outside to a course, maybe you should go and play a dozen rounds and see what is really going on before coming to any conclusions.

[JCAG]

Sound advice.

[mgoblue83]

Couple things man:

1.) I love Skytrak but Trackman data will always be more accurate (yes, even indoors). You simply can't compare the them like you are attempting to.

2.) No shaft will magically lower your flight that dramatically unless it's so heavy and stiff that you can't load it properly (not what you want anyway). Sounds like both of your sets of irons have similar lofts and head weights. Combine that with shafts that are not much different and it is what it is.

3.) Pure strikes shouldn't balloon into the wind with either club but if you want to lower your launch angle you can either lower lofts or change your swing. Trying to do it with a shaft isn't the best option.