Bring back balata balls

[BIG STU]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @Shallowface said:

> > > @storm319 said:

> > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > @Pablomartin said:

> > > > > I have been thinking on creating a retro tour where woods played need to be 200cc max and made of actual "wood", no graphite shafts allowed, ballata balls only. Cord grips and metal spikes encouraged. You will drop behind your back. It will be called the "screw titanium-real golfers tour" or STRGT. Winners would get a 20% discount voucher to eat at my grandmas dinner. It would be a total success I'm sure....... I need to see 30 yards backspins again. I'm suffering of PTSD from all these new regulations and nonsense from the USGA and RA and dont have any shell wonderfull world of golf rounds left to see...

> > > >

> > > > Some of the guys on here in certain sections do get togethers and play the classic stuff. Someone on here can shed more light on this but didn't Tad Moore try to do a steel shaft blades and persimmon thing in conjunction with the hickory players? I know from reading on here quite a few guys over in the UK get together and play vintage. I think on this southeast coast (NC/SC) only Augie ,Randy and myself play vintage. I did meet a guy a while back that played persimmon and we played some but he moved back to his native Michigan for family reasons. I met one other guy from Charleston SC that played a real mix bag with some hickory clubs ,Vintage steel shafted irons and steel shafted persimmon woods. He was a pretty good player with that set up have not seen him in a while. I know over in the UK that they have a whole Facebook section of vintage players. Some of those guys are members here.

> > >

> > > Still a minuscule percentage of the shrinking overall golf market. Low demand plus higher production difficulty/cost means that it is unlikely that any OEM would even consider this.

> >

> > While you are likely correct about the overall level of demand, it would not be all that difficult to do a modern ball with balata level spin rates. It was done with the original Spalding Tour Edition. I think a number of people would enjoy the novelty aspect of such a ball and it seems something a niche ball producer might be willing to try.

> > Isn't the major difference between today's ball and the Tour Edition mostly cover thickness? Seems I recall the Tour Edition cover being quite a bit thicker than what one sees today, and perhaps that is why it spun so much more. If that's true, it wouldn't be a problem to produce such a ball today.

> > I saw a chart recently that showed a number of modern tour level balls and their compression ratings. Many of them were over 100, yet if I recall correctly Louisville Golf has deemed those balls safe to use with their persimmon woods. I always believed that most of the damage to woods with two piece balls wasn't due to their compression but was in fact due to the relatively thick, hard, inflexible Surlyn covers of that day.

>

> I'm not so sure about the compression vs cover softness angle. It seems the ball manufacturers look at core compression in their ball construction, and most of the modern balls start with cores lower than their final ATTI tested compression.

>

> The rocks of old were using even firmer cores. Remember the DDH 110 ball from Maxfli? A great deal harder at impact than even the firmer modern multilayer balls, like the ZStar XV, or the old Chrome+.

 

LOL I have some of those Dunlops brand new courtesy of our own Scooter---- You are correct on the early Rock Flites etc--- They would tear the heck out of a fiber insert club--- Ask me how I know-- I learned the hard way---- And like you said the Surlyn covered balls were rough on a fiber insert too---- The first Surlyn covered balls I saw were Golden Rams. The weekend golfers loved the durability of them. My old man sold quite a few

[Shallowface]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @Shallowface said:

> > > @storm319 said:

> > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > @Pablomartin said:

> > > > > I have been thinking on creating a retro tour where woods played need to be 200cc max and made of actual "wood", no graphite shafts allowed, ballata balls only. Cord grips and metal spikes encouraged. You will drop behind your back. It will be called the "screw titanium-real golfers tour" or STRGT. Winners would get a 20% discount voucher to eat at my grandmas dinner. It would be a total success I'm sure....... I need to see 30 yards backspins again. I'm suffering of PTSD from all these new regulations and nonsense from the USGA and RA and dont have any shell wonderfull world of golf rounds left to see...

> > > >

> > > > Some of the guys on here in certain sections do get togethers and play the classic stuff. Someone on here can shed more light on this but didn't Tad Moore try to do a steel shaft blades and persimmon thing in conjunction with the hickory players? I know from reading on here quite a few guys over in the UK get together and play vintage. I think on this southeast coast (NC/SC) only Augie ,Randy and myself play vintage. I did meet a guy a while back that played persimmon and we played some but he moved back to his native Michigan for family reasons. I met one other guy from Charleston SC that played a real mix bag with some hickory clubs ,Vintage steel shafted irons and steel shafted persimmon woods. He was a pretty good player with that set up have not seen him in a while. I know over in the UK that they have a whole Facebook section of vintage players. Some of those guys are members here.

> > >

> > > Still a minuscule percentage of the shrinking overall golf market. Low demand plus higher production difficulty/cost means that it is unlikely that any OEM would even consider this.

> >

> > While you are likely correct about the overall level of demand, it would not be all that difficult to do a modern ball with balata level spin rates. It was done with the original Spalding Tour Edition. I think a number of people would enjoy the novelty aspect of such a ball and it seems something a niche ball producer might be willing to try.

> > Isn't the major difference between today's ball and the Tour Edition mostly cover thickness? Seems I recall the Tour Edition cover being quite a bit thicker than what one sees today, and perhaps that is why it spun so much more. If that's true, it wouldn't be a problem to produce such a ball today.

> > I saw a chart recently that showed a number of modern tour level balls and their compression ratings. Many of them were over 100, yet if I recall correctly Louisville Golf has deemed those balls safe to use with their persimmon woods. I always believed that most of the damage to woods with two piece balls wasn't due to their compression but was in fact due to the relatively thick, hard, inflexible Surlyn covers of that day.

>

> I'm not so sure about the compression vs cover softness angle. It seems the ball manufacturers look at core compression in their ball construction, and most of the modern balls start with cores lower than their final ATTI tested compression.

>

> The rocks of old were using even firmer cores. Remember the DDH 110 ball from Maxfli? A great deal harder at impact than even the firmer modern multilayer balls, like the ZStar XV, or the old Chrome+.

 

 

I used to play that DDH 110 quite a bit. Never was a wound balata guy as I grew up playing the two piece rocks and with the speed and power I had back then I had no trouble stopping them. Despite its labeling I never did think that DDH was a particularly hard ball. Certainly not anything like the original Molitor.

Stu mentioned the Golden Ram, but the worst feeling balls in my opinion were the original Ram 3D and the Maxfli Blue Max. Both wound, but with surlyn covers as thick and tough as a cheap steak. I always liked the feel of the original Top Flite, and got a big kick out of beating the kids from the rich schools who wouldn't touch anything other than a black Titleist.

The worst damage I ever did to a wood wasn't with a Top Flite, but was with one of the first surlyn Titleist DTs of the mid 1970s. Another wound ball with a thick surlyn cover. That's where the opinion about what really caused damage to wooden woods comes from. Personal experience.

 

 

[BIG STU]

Yep those Blue Max were as hard as Chinese Arithmetic too. Man we sold a lot of those too. Actually I call the days when those balls were introduced as one of the milestones of golf especially for the weekend golfer. No longer did they have to replace a "smiling" ball every few holes or so but they had a durable ball that they could play a while if they did not lose it. I can remember back in the day we sold those old Club Specials .75 each or 3 for $1.50. He bought them in bulk and had them in a huge Lance Cookie jar on the counter. We also sole X-out Titleists and Dunlop balls the same way at the same price. My old man always said the Club Specials were reject Titleists. I do remember the Surlyn covered Golden Ram was the first of the non wound balls we ever sold. Then Maxfli came out with the Blue Max. When those balls came out within a few weeks the sales of X-outs and CS dropped. Of course our lake ball sales never dropped off. He had a friend that recovered lake balls and he split the take with him. He sold those balls "You pick them" 5 for $1. Something else I remember from the hard ball days. We used ones from the lake on the driving range. In the winter I had a little jig and I painted stripes on them for the range

I guess I was lucky being a wound balata guy because I got balls for free. My old man gambled high and only played a ball 2 or 3 holes. The other gamblers were the same way. Between him and all the ones I found I was set.

[NRJyzr]

> @Shallowface said:

> > @NRJyzr said:

> > > @Shallowface said:

> > > > @storm319 said:

> > > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > > @Pablomartin said:

> > > > > > I have been thinking on creating a retro tour where woods played need to be 200cc max and made of actual "wood", no graphite shafts allowed, ballata balls only. Cord grips and metal spikes encouraged. You will drop behind your back. It will be called the "screw titanium-real golfers tour" or STRGT. Winners would get a 20% discount voucher to eat at my grandmas dinner. It would be a total success I'm sure....... I need to see 30 yards backspins again. I'm suffering of PTSD from all these new regulations and nonsense from the USGA and RA and dont have any shell wonderfull world of golf rounds left to see...

> > > > >

> > > > > Some of the guys on here in certain sections do get togethers and play the classic stuff. Someone on here can shed more light on this but didn't Tad Moore try to do a steel shaft blades and persimmon thing in conjunction with the hickory players? I know from reading on here quite a few guys over in the UK get together and play vintage. I think on this southeast coast (NC/SC) only Augie ,Randy and myself play vintage. I did meet a guy a while back that played persimmon and we played some but he moved back to his native Michigan for family reasons. I met one other guy from Charleston SC that played a real mix bag with some hickory clubs ,Vintage steel shafted irons and steel shafted persimmon woods. He was a pretty good player with that set up have not seen him in a while. I know over in the UK that they have a whole Facebook section of vintage players. Some of those guys are members here.

> > > >

> > > > Still a minuscule percentage of the shrinking overall golf market. Low demand plus higher production difficulty/cost means that it is unlikely that any OEM would even consider this.

> > >

> > > While you are likely correct about the overall level of demand, it would not be all that difficult to do a modern ball with balata level spin rates. It was done with the original Spalding Tour Edition. I think a number of people would enjoy the novelty aspect of such a ball and it seems something a niche ball producer might be willing to try.

> > > Isn't the major difference between today's ball and the Tour Edition mostly cover thickness? Seems I recall the Tour Edition cover being quite a bit thicker than what one sees today, and perhaps that is why it spun so much more. If that's true, it wouldn't be a problem to produce such a ball today.

> > > I saw a chart recently that showed a number of modern tour level balls and their compression ratings. Many of them were over 100, yet if I recall correctly Louisville Golf has deemed those balls safe to use with their persimmon woods. I always believed that most of the damage to woods with two piece balls wasn't due to their compression but was in fact due to the relatively thick, hard, inflexible Surlyn covers of that day.

> >

> > I'm not so sure about the compression vs cover softness angle. It seems the ball manufacturers look at core compression in their ball construction, and most of the modern balls start with cores lower than their final ATTI tested compression.

> >

> > The rocks of old were using even firmer cores. Remember the DDH 110 ball from Maxfli? A great deal harder at impact than even the firmer modern multilayer balls, like the ZStar XV, or the old Chrome+.

>

>

> I used to play that DDH 110 quite a bit. Never was a wound balata guy as I grew up playing the two piece rocks and with the speed and power I had back then I had no trouble stopping them. Despite its labeling I never did think that DDH was a particularly hard ball. Certainly not anything like the original Molitor.

> Stu mentioned the Golden Ram, but the worst feeling balls in my opinion were the original Ram 3D and the Maxfli Blue Max. Both wound, but with surlyn covers as thick and tough as a cheap steak. I always liked the feel of the original Top Flite, and got a big kick out of beating the kids from the rich schools who wouldn't touch anything other than a black Titleist.

> The worst damage I ever did to a wood wasn't with a Top Flite, but was with one of the first surlyn Titleist DTs of the mid 1970s. Another wound ball with a thick surlyn cover. That's where the opinion about what really caused damage to wooden woods comes from. Personal experience.

>

>

 

That's a fair point. I've never played anything like the DT or the Maxfli Patriot with a real wood.

 

Another moment where I wish I'd started playing golf earlier in life. ;)

[GSDriver]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> Bigarch wrote:

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> farmer wrote:

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>

>

> Greg Norman played a Spaulding Tour Edition ball that had a synthetic balata cover and spun more than a wound balata ball. If balls were made to spin more, driver designs would be altered to minimize the additional spin, and probably nothing much would change as far as distance is concerned. Norman was as long as his contemporaries, playing a higher spin ball.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> That ball was incredible. Probably spun too much and could have cost him a major back in 1986 when he led all 4 majors on Sunday. I'll never forget the shots he was hitting into greens at Inverness in the PGA. Right before Tway holed out from the bunker on the 72nd hole, Norman hit a shot into the middle of the green that sucked back off of the front and into the rough.

>

>

>

>

> Norman always claimed even to this day that ball cost him some tournaments

 

I played those Tour Editions, they probably spun more than any other ball I've ever played, insane spin, so probably did cost him a couple tourneys at least.

[farmer]

For Big Stu, those Club Specials I remember were the worst ball I ever played. Late 60's-early 70's. I loved the DT's, playable and didn't self-destruct. Not a ball designer, but I imagine it would be possible to make a ball spin as much as those old balatas or Tour Editions. I question whether there would be a big enough market.

[Buzzkill]

Love the DTs from the 1970s too. Balata were great BUT only lasted 3 holes even when struck well - got knocked out of round fast.

[Nomad Golfer]

> @"Kenny Lee Puckett" said:

> try a box of the Wilson Duo Urethane. I will swear that is the closest in terms of the "balata" feel and performance you will get in todays ball market.

I use those with my vintage MacGregor set and yes they're the softest modern balls I've found sofar.

 

[Fellaheen51]

No desire to return to the days of Balata. When one ineffective swing renders the ball unplayable. I've found several modern balls that offer the durability and playability with modern and vintage implements. Further, with classic wood and blade, like using a ball with a little more firmness to it (i.e higher compression?) One in the 70'ish range. Seems to achieve a little more "pop" off the club face when struck with persimmon. Nothing wrong with the various Duos. Although they can feel a bit "mushy" in warmer weather. And do not like the feel of putting with them. Personally, find the Wilson FG Tour a very good ball for "all seasons". And in the late fall, just play the cheapo 50 Elite. I dunno.

 

Although I still have a sleeve plus of Titleist Tour Balata 90 (found a doz at a garage sale a couple of years back). I've hit them, lost them, creased them over time. Furthermore, the unofficial coefficient of bounce test off the garage floor (compared to the Wilson FG's) shows the Tour 90's lacking in the requisite bounce back. Need as much pop as I can get. I'm saving the remainder for.......?

[scomac2002]

> @Fellaheen51 said:

> Although I still have a sleeve plus of Titleist Tour Balata 90 (found a doz at a garage sale a couple of years back). I've hit them, lost them, creased them over time. Furthermore, the unofficial coefficient of bounce test off the garage floor (compared to the Wilson FG's) shows the Tour 90's lacking in the requisite bounce back. Need as much pop as I can get. **I'm saving the remainder for.......?**

 

Ebay? :wink:

 

 

[wkuo3]

> @"BIG STU" said:

My old man gambled high and only played a ball 2 or 3 holes. The other gamblers were the same way. Between him and all the ones I found I was set.

 

Back in the days I played with several guys like that. One guy will exam his Titleist after each hole and toss the ones that's " put of round ". Brand new Titleist....... I make sure I stay close to him and he would ask me "do you want it " ? Heck yes, wound golf balls goes out of round as soon as they left the driver's face. Close to $40 a dozen was like a hundred these days.

My favorite "rock" was TopFlite when it came out, I used it in the Winter months for many years.

 

 

[BIG STU]

> @wkuo3 said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> My old man gambled high and only played a ball 2 or 3 holes. The other gamblers were the same way. Between him and all the ones I found I was set.

>

> Back in the days I played with several guys like that. One guy will exam his Titleist after each hole and toss the ones that's " put of round ". Brand new Titleist....... I make sure I stay close to him and he would ask me "do you want it " ? Heck yes, wound golf balls goes out of round as soon as they left the driver's face. Close to $40 a dozen was like a hundred these days.

> My favorite "rock" was TopFlite when it came out, I used it in the Winter months for many years.

>

>

 

Actually when I got older and started gambling some and playing the Mini Tours I had a ball check gauge. I think it was made out of aluminum or SS. Hung it off the strap loop on my bag. I think it is still on my old white Ping Staff bag which is buried in the far recesses of my storage building across the road

[dlygrisse]

No thanks, learned to play in the 1980’s. I moved to multi layer as soon as they started putting soft covers on them. You were lucky to 3 holes out of those things before they cut or got out of round. They wouldn’t work well with modern equipment either.

[tiderider]

> @"Nomad Golfer" said:

> > @"Kenny Lee Puckett" said:

> > try a box of the Wilson Duo Urethane. I will swear that is the closest in terms of the "balata" feel and performance you will get in todays ball market.

> I use those with my vintage MacGregor set and yes they're the softest modern balls I've found sofar.

>

 

what's the distance difference compared to a proV/similar ball and a modern driver? ... i'm watching a Shell match from '94 between faldo/norman and they were hitting 7 irons at about 150, at Sunningdale ... couldn't really get a good number on a driver, though faldo did have a persimmon driver ... would've thought it was metal by then ...

[Nomad Golfer]

They don't go as far as modern clubs & balls but then I'm using vintage clubs where a modern #4 wood would go further than my old #1. I don't use them with later club set, just the Titleist NXT Tour S. The duos are easier on the vintage woods as well, much like the Balata balls.

[braincramp52]

I can honestly say I've never missed balata balls for a single minute. Durability was 0. I like using the same ball for several rounds.

[dcopp7]

I can tell you the Slazenger RAW Soft Feel ball is outstanding with vintage woods and irons.

[Shallowface]

> @NRJyzr said:

 

> >

> >

>

> That's a fair point. I've never played anything like the DT or the Maxfli Patriot with a real wood.

>

> Another moment where I wish I'd started playing golf earlier in life. ;)

No one ever talked about core compression back then. It's more of modern marketing tool.

It seems to me if one had a 70s/80s era 100 compression wound balata ball, and a 100 compression Surlyn covered two piece ball, those two golf balls have the same degree of firmness. So why would the two piece ball be any more damaging to a wooden head than the wound balata? Furthermore, why do those two golf balls feel nothing alike?

I believe the difference is the hard, thick and relatively inflexible Surlyn cover of that day. And it became even more of an issue when the weather was cold.

There's no way to do this, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that if a core compression test was done on the wound core of a 100 compression wound ball versus the core of a two piece ball from that era, that the wound core might actually be firmer.

 

 

[Pablomartin]

Yikes!! Thaaanks. You made my day

[Pablomartin]

I got in touch with a titleist contact recently to see if they had the recipe of the balata ball. I wanted to see if they would be kind enough to pass it on ? my idea is to try to launch a crowdfunding campaign to create it again cheaply say somewhere in China so the player that wants, could play with that ball. I think short courses could give you a dozen together with their greenfees so their courses would play long and fun again. I don't see why not. The reason they spun so much was not just the softness of them but the inner ball which made the ball spin "twice". Don't you guys remember when the ball would stop on the green for half a second before it would go nuts and spin back 40 yards!? Omg!! You would just hold your breath to see if it would spin on the axis or not. When it didn't take on the axis of rotation the ball had so much juice that it would spun while not moving. I heard a ball once reached new Zealand. It was said it was someone who had hit a 50 yard bunker shot using two balls setting them one behind the other. Who does that nowadays!??!! How about golf going into the FUN route and not the EASY -more distance, more forgiving, highly embarrassing knee height dropping- that they have brought unto us!. It was always a GAME. Games are supposed to be fun. Am I crazy?

[Pablomartin]

And how about opening a box of those that came with its own paper like a ferrero rocher! The amount of hours I spent in lakes and out of bounds looking for balata balls and later the professional ball. Finding one in good shape was like finding a truffle. Oh man. Bring this days back! Yes, you will have to play three or four balls a round of you hack it, but your persimmon driver will go down to your kid and will save on having to buy a new tuna can driver every 6 months. So I think is better for your pocket anyways.

[BIG STU]

Pablo--- I am going to make you drool here I still have a couple of Dunlop 65s ( 1.62 English size as we called them) still in their little wrappers. I think it has been explored before but I would say there is less than a half of 1% of all the folks playing golf today play vintage golf like we do. No way anyone could make a profit by retooling and making them. As far as the modern Toyota on a stick as I call them most folks do not realize COR has been maxed out for some time. The only thing the manufactures have going for them is moving weight around with those fancy sliders. Those fancy sliders are nothing that us old timers have not done with lead tape over the years.

[BIG STU]

Yep those Club Specials were reject Titleists that were not even good enough to be XXX out Titleists. My old man showed me one day by rolling a couple across the table with his hands and then rolling a Titleist. those Club Specials would wobble. I actually liked the DTs for some reason I could spin the heck out of them and of course they went further than the old balata. Now I will say they did not feel as good as balata especially off the putter

[mocokid]

We used to get them 2/$1, pay $5 green fee and play 36 holes, back in the day in NJ.

[BIG STU]

I remember we had them on the counter in a big old Lance cookie jar and I think they were 3 for $1. There was another cookie jar with lake balls beside it 5 for $1. Funny thing in the post above the computer blanked out X-out because I guess I used 3 or 4 Xs in a row. This is really starting to get to me with this computer update mess. It ain't like I used a cuss word or something