Let's Get Real: 200 Yards

[CallawayLefty]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1403538358' post='9557917']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403536231' post='9557587']
Again we assume that they just striped their 200 yard tee ball. Let's do this math problem. Hole A is 350 yards. Player tops his drive 30 feet. What's he hitting next? Hole B is 310 yards. Player tops his drive 30 feet. What's he hitting next?

If you want to debate whether a guy who is a 15 handicap should move up from the back tees, that's one thing. But that guy, just by definition of having a handicap and having it be under 30 is probably already in the top 10% of golfers.
[/quote]

Seems like you are being obtuse on purpose. Using an extreme strawman to help prop up your disagreement does not really help anyone in a discussion forum, or real life.

The fact is that a vast majority of golfers are not going to hit the ball 30yds on every shot. It's been shown that the average is 200yds. Unlike GolfWRX average, that is likely a [u][b]true[/b][/u] median distance, illustrated on a bell curve over some sample population size, number of courses, etc.

Further, the ball does not need to be stripped. Let's say they worm-burn it 180, on a 360yd par 4. Now they have 180 left. If that tee was up at 320, they would have 140 left. HUGE difference.
[/quote]

I think the reason I am being obtuse is because I view the entire Tee It Forward movement as obtuse. Not sure why my example is an extreme strawman but the "Iron Byron" hypothetical players that everyone who is in support of Tee It Forward uses are completely valid. It just seems to me like the Tee It Forward crowd looks at everything in a vacuum. Is it easier to hit a 9 iron than a 5 iron? Yes, I would agree that it is. But it's always based on the assumption that the player in question can actually make appropriate contact with the shot that gets them to the 9 iron and can then make appropriate contact with the 9 iron itself. It ignores things like directional mishits, poor contact, duffs, whiffs, misses, etc. and points solely to the length of the club in someone's hands as the dictating factor for how quickly that person can move around the course and how much they'll enjoy it. I would submit that bad golfers are just bad, and moving them around on tee boxes doesn't do MUCH for them or anybody else.

At minimum, it's extremely paternalistic. When you look at players on a case by case basis, of course there are players that should be moving up a tee box. But it's not always the case, and more importantly, it's not up to YOU (I mean the collective you, not you in particular) what tees someone else plays. What if every time you wanted to go for the green from 200 yards I came up and pulled your 4 iron out of your hands and handed you a wedge and said "sorry man, that's a really low percentage shot and you're probably going to hold up the group behind you when you miss the green, just hit 2 wedges instead so that way you'll enjoy the game more." What if you're a good 4 iron player? What if you don't take a long time to play? What if you just want to hit your 4 iron because you paid $63 to be here the same way that the a**hole behind you who's barking at you to speed it up did?

Before about 3 years ago, all of these problems were solved by marshalls. Now we have to have a whole movement so that golf course developers can push a more streamlined product that ultimately does nothing for the game than sell more rounds on new courses that shouldn't have been built in the first place.

EDIT: You know what's funny by the way? You NEVER see marshalls anymore. When I was a kid, that same marshall would drive by 2 or 3 times per 9. Always checking up on people's pace, always forcing people to let other people play through etc. The same golf course developers that want to cram Tee it Forward down our throats won't even pay $10 an hour for a marshall to carry out the same purpose. Sad state of affairs.

[nyknicks4412]

I can hit my 5 iron about 200+ yards on my best swing...just started playing this year. I still can barely break 100. Distances are not the sole factor in golf to determine a players speed. I actually found I played faster when I hit my 5 iron 140 because at least then I was rarely hitting a blind shot.

[diehllane]

[quote name='ReidStylez' timestamp='1403532877' post='9557027']
With 6,100 - 6,200 yard tee boxes you'll have plenty of 320 - 360 yard Par 4's vs 400+ and hardly if any 180+ yard Par 3's.
[/quote]
My regular course, white tees, sits at 6164.
1 par 4 over 400. 1 par 3 over 180.
A few par 4s are between those 2 ranges though... 375, 387, 374.
There is a par 5 over 600 yards... which would be a 4-shot hole for a golfer driving 200. If they went driver, 3 iron (if the 5 goes 150 and driver 200, 3 would likely be 180), 3 iron, that would still only be like 560 maybe. That is for perfect shots each time. The other par 5 on the back is 556. That's basically that driver, 3 iron, 3 iron. Granted, the back 9 is almost 6 yards longer than the front (3378 vs 2786). The gold tees (seniors) are actually longer on the back than the whites on the front. It almost seems like for an average golfer, they need to split tees to play on this course with those numbers.

[shaffe]

Just an assumption, but a lot of posts in this tread probably need to be edited to say, "I hit my ____ iron _____ yards on my best swing" .... Not, "I hit my ____ iron ____ yards."

... Carry on ...

[shortstop20]

Teeing it forward is fun. I'm an 11 handicap and I play the 6200 yard tees.

If I had to hit woods or long irons into every green I'd hit the range or quit!

[nyknicks4412]

[quote name='shaffe' timestamp='1403541309' post='9558381']
Just an assumption, but a lot of posts in this tread probably need to be edited to say, "I hit my ____ iron _____ yards on my best swing" .... Not, "I hit my ____ iron ____ yards."

... Carry on ...
[/quote]

Edited

[shaffe]

[quote name='nyknicks4412' timestamp='1403542284' post='9558531']
[quote name='shaffe' timestamp='1403541309' post='9558381']
Just an assumption, but a lot of posts in this tread probably need to be edited to say, "I hit my ____ iron _____ yards on my best swing" .... Not, "I hit my ____ iron ____ yards."

... Carry on ...
[/quote]

Edited
[/quote]

Nice! ... My 5 iron is good for anything from 65-180yds! It's a very versatile, yet unpredictable club.

[shortstop20]

[quote name='nyknicks4412' timestamp='1403542284' post='9558531']
[quote name='shaffe' timestamp='1403541309' post='9558381']
Just an assumption, but a lot of posts in this tread probably need to be edited to say, "I hit my ____ iron _____ yards on my best swing" .... Not, "I hit my ____ iron ____ yards."

... Carry on ...
[/quote]

Edited
[/quote]

At least you're honest! [size=4] [/size]

[nyknicks4412]

[quote name='shortstop20' timestamp='1403542528' post='9558563']
[quote name='nyknicks4412' timestamp='1403542284' post='9558531']
[quote name='shaffe' timestamp='1403541309' post='9558381']
Just an assumption, but a lot of posts in this tread probably need to be edited to say, "I hit my ____ iron _____ yards on my best swing" .... Not, "I hit my ____ iron ____ yards."

... Carry on ...
[/quote]

Edited
[/quote]

At least you're honest!
[/quote]

I figured the I can barely break 100 would speak for itself haha

I think distance can be a factor but I think an even larger factor is pace of play education. I've played with people that expect a 6 hour round...if everyone goes into it with that attitude it'll never improve.

[highergr0und]

I think the problem here is that skill and distance are not directly related. Being long should make the game easier, but that's often not the case.

I can also pretty much guarantee that pros playing for the same money and rankings would jump at the chance to tee it forward. They want to score and are less concerned with the vanity of handicaps and thinking that they played a course at its hardest.

[Ballgofarboy]

The key here is AVERAGE: We get to see and play behind a number of BELOW average players.

200 yds off the tee, sounds about right after watching some of the stuff I see in simulators. Not saying those are any more accurate.

Most of you are right, shortening up the course would not be at all fun. EGO or lack of knowledge of the game keep most from playing it forward. And the word FUN and GOLF do they really go together??

GOLF IS PAIN and FRUSTRATION lets face it, that is what most of us are here for!!!

[hollabachgt]

[quote name='cphrey' timestamp='1403534179' post='9557265']
I get who this is directed at but a 5500-6000 yd course would be incredibly boring to me...that is an issue.
[/quote]

Why would that be boring? would it be the lack of options to hit driver off of the tee or the quantity of birdie putts you'll have?

People seem to relate challenge to length and how hard a course is, but can't the same be said for the opposite. Is it not also a challenge to try and shoot 65 on a short course?

[cphrey]

[quote name='hollabachgt' timestamp='1403544349' post='9558825'][quote name='cphrey' timestamp='1403534179' post='9557265']
I get who this is directed at but a 5500-6000 yd course would be incredibly boring to me...that is an issue.
[/quote]

Why would that be boring? would it be the lack of options to hit driver off of the tee or the quantity of birdie putts you'll have?

People seem to relate challenge to length and how hard a course is, but can't the same be said for the opposite. Is it not also a challenge to try and shoot 65 on a short course?[/quote]

I play golf bc I enjoy the challenge and going backwards to tees I played before HS just doesn't appeal to me. Just trying to point out that tee it forward really doesn't work for all players. I would be fine with the occasional short course but of my every day course was 5300 yds or something id get bored fast.

[CallawayLefty]

[quote name='hollabachgt' timestamp='1403544349' post='9558825']
[quote name='cphrey' timestamp='1403534179' post='9557265']
I get who this is directed at but a 5500-6000 yd course would be incredibly boring to me...that is an issue.
[/quote]

Why would that be boring? would it be the lack of options to hit driver off of the tee or the quantity of birdie putts you'll have?

People seem to relate challenge to length and how hard a course is, but can't the same be said for the opposite. Is it not also a challenge to try and shoot 65 on a short course?
[/quote]

Sure. I think that is fun. But am I not within my "golfing rights" to choose when I want to do it and when I want to play from further back? The Tee it Forward regime would have all courses stick dynamite under their back two tee boxes.

[cphrey]

[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403544762' post='9558885'][quote name='hollabachgt' timestamp='1403544349' post='9558825']
[quote name='cphrey' timestamp='1403534179' post='9557265']
I get who this is directed at but a 5500-6000 yd course would be incredibly boring to me...that is an issue.
[/quote]

Why would that be boring? would it be the lack of options to hit driver off of the tee or the quantity of birdie putts you'll have?

People seem to relate challenge to length and how hard a course is, but can't the same be said for the opposite. Is it not also a challenge to try and shoot 65 on a short course?
[/quote]

Sure. I think that is fun. But am I not within my "golfing rights" to choose when I want to do it and when I want to play from further back? The Tee it Forward regime would have all courses stick dynamite under their back two tee boxes.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. Just bc my dad should play a 5000 yd course doesn't mean everyone else has to. If I shoot 78 on a 6900 yd course then 70 on a 6000 yd course, the former would be a much better feat IMO

[rcain1us]

[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403544762' post='9558885']
[quote name='hollabachgt' timestamp='1403544349' post='9558825']
[quote name='cphrey' timestamp='1403534179' post='9557265']
I get who this is directed at but a 5500-6000 yd course would be incredibly boring to me...that is an issue.
[/quote]

Why would that be boring? would it be the lack of options to hit driver off of the tee or the quantity of birdie putts you'll have?

People seem to relate challenge to length and how hard a course is, but can't the same be said for the opposite. Is it not also a challenge to try and shoot 65 on a short course?
[/quote]

Sure. I think that is fun. But am I not within my "golfing rights" to choose when I want to do it and when I want to play from further back? The Tee it Forward regime would have all courses stick dynamite under their back two tee boxes.
[/quote]

If the course is under 6000 yards I am not even going to play it and I don't consider myself long by any stretch of the imagination (at least not WRX standards).

I can carry my drive around 240 and usually am in the 265 range. From the blues on most of the courses I play this is 125-150 yard second shot if I am in the fairway which is a GW - 8i for me.

I play with shorter golfers that's what the forward tees are for, I play with my dad he hits a good shot from the whites and I hit from the blues and we are often within a club of each other. We both play from the whites and I may be 50 yards beyond him and if one of us if off line it takes Longer for us to play out of the same cart.

The problem isn't the courses it the guys that can't reach the ladies tee but insist on playing the back tees - but then they paid the same green fees I did

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403540181' post='9558221']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1403538358' post='9557917']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403536231' post='9557587']
Again we assume that they just striped their 200 yard tee ball. Let's do this math problem. Hole A is 350 yards. Player tops his drive 30 feet. What's he hitting next? Hole B is 310 yards. Player tops his drive 30 feet. What's he hitting next?

If you want to debate whether a guy who is a 15 handicap should move up from the back tees, that's one thing. But that guy, just by definition of having a handicap and having it be under 30 is probably already in the top 10% of golfers.
[/quote]

Seems like you are being obtuse on purpose. Using an extreme strawman to help prop up your disagreement does not really help anyone in a discussion forum, or real life.

The fact is that a vast majority of golfers are not going to hit the ball 30yds on every shot. It's been shown that the average is 200yds. Unlike GolfWRX average, that is likely a [u][b]true[/b][/u] median distance, illustrated on a bell curve over some sample population size, number of courses, etc.

Further, the ball does not need to be stripped. Let's say they worm-burn it 180, on a 360yd par 4. Now they have 180 left. If that tee was up at 320, they would have 140 left. HUGE difference.
[/quote]

I think the reason I am being obtuse is because I view the entire Tee It Forward movement as obtuse. Not sure why my example is an extreme strawman but the "Iron Byron" hypothetical players that everyone who is in support of Tee It Forward uses are completely valid. It just seems to me like the Tee It Forward crowd looks at everything in a vacuum. Is it easier to hit a 9 iron than a 5 iron? Yes, I would agree that it is. But it's always based on the assumption that the player in question can actually make appropriate contact with the shot that gets them to the 9 iron and can then make appropriate contact with the 9 iron itself. It ignores things like directional mishits, poor contact, duffs, whiffs, misses, etc. and points solely to the length of the club in someone's hands as the dictating factor for how quickly that person can move around the course and how much they'll enjoy it. I would submit that bad golfers are just bad, and moving them around on tee boxes doesn't do MUCH for them or anybody else.
[/quote]

An 18 hole par three course takes 2.5 hours to play - walking - in 100 degree heat, and 90% humidity. Wonder why it only takes 2.5 hours for 18? Let me think......

[bk52]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403534089' post='9557237'] It takes a bit of courage to move up. Most golfers simply don't have the balls to do so. They are afraid of what other will say or think, even though deep down they might love to move up. [/quote]

A bit of hyperbole being used here.

Most golfers, outside the once or twice a season player, make rational decisions as to the tee selected. If one maintains a handicap, playing an unrated set of tees makes little sense. Teeing it forward to a set of tees rated solely for women doesn't work. Others just go along with their buddies and play whatever tee they select. They are often perfectly happy shooting 100+ because golf is more about the social aspects than score. If score really mattered, they would be taking lessons. To me, it is a small group of players who secretly desire to play shorter sets of tees but are concerned about the reaction of their friends. They are unlikely to make a change despite all the encouragement from the media and others.

There is no universal formula for making golf fun. I happen to agree that shooting in the 70's on a relatively short set of tees is a lot more fun than grinding out 105 from some enormously long set of tees. But there are those who appreciate the challenge more than the ultimate score. Defining for others what is "fun" is not something we should attempt.

[mesquite2]

Michelle Wie last week on the Golf Channel said her 7 iron distance was 155 yards, so I can see where the average golfer would hit a 5 iron about the same distance. Trouble is that they mostly all play the blues, because " the whites are too short". I hear it all the time.

[CallawayLefty]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1403545436' post='9558973']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403540181' post='9558221']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1403538358' post='9557917']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403536231' post='9557587']
Again we assume that they just striped their 200 yard tee ball. Let's do this math problem. Hole A is 350 yards. Player tops his drive 30 feet. What's he hitting next? Hole B is 310 yards. Player tops his drive 30 feet. What's he hitting next?

If you want to debate whether a guy who is a 15 handicap should move up from the back tees, that's one thing. But that guy, just by definition of having a handicap and having it be under 30 is probably already in the top 10% of golfers.
[/quote]

Seems like you are being obtuse on purpose. Using an extreme strawman to help prop up your disagreement does not really help anyone in a discussion forum, or real life.

The fact is that a vast majority of golfers are not going to hit the ball 30yds on every shot. It's been shown that the average is 200yds. Unlike GolfWRX average, that is likely a [u][b]true[/b][/u] median distance, illustrated on a bell curve over some sample population size, number of courses, etc.

Further, the ball does not need to be stripped. Let's say they worm-burn it 180, on a 360yd par 4. Now they have 180 left. If that tee was up at 320, they would have 140 left. HUGE difference.
[/quote]

I think the reason I am being obtuse is because I view the entire Tee It Forward movement as obtuse. Not sure why my example is an extreme strawman but the "Iron Byron" hypothetical players that everyone who is in support of Tee It Forward uses are completely valid. It just seems to me like the Tee It Forward crowd looks at everything in a vacuum. Is it easier to hit a 9 iron than a 5 iron? Yes, I would agree that it is. But it's always based on the assumption that the player in question can actually make appropriate contact with the shot that gets them to the 9 iron and can then make appropriate contact with the 9 iron itself. It ignores things like directional mishits, poor contact, duffs, whiffs, misses, etc. and points solely to the length of the club in someone's hands as the dictating factor for how quickly that person can move around the course and how much they'll enjoy it. I would submit that bad golfers are just bad, and moving them around on tee boxes doesn't do MUCH for them or anybody else.
[/quote]

An 18 hole par three course takes 2.5 hours to play - walking - in 100 degree heat, and 90% humidity. Wonder why it only takes 2.5 hours for 18? Let me think......
[/quote]

Great. Then could you and the rest of the Tee It Forward crowd please go play there? Seems like everyone gets what they want - I stay at courses of a reasonable length and accept that rounds take 4+/- hours, and you can go play a par 3 course in 2.5 hours. My courses get less crowded, and you have less crowd to deal with.

EDIT: Waiting on the response "but I don't want to play a par 3 course." Well guess what, I don't want to play a 5400 yard regular course. As paying guests/members, shouldn't we both be entitled to what we want?

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403546035' post='9559071']
Great. Then could you and the rest of the Tee It Forward crowd please go play there? Seems like everyone gets what they want - I stay at courses of a reasonable length and accept that rounds take 4+/- hours, and you can go play a par 3 course in 2.5 hours. My courses get less crowded, and you have less crowd to deal with.

EDIT: Waiting on the response "but I don't want to play a par 3 course." Well guess what, I don't want to play a 5400 yard regular course. As paying guests/members, shouldn't we both be entitled to what we want?
[/quote]

<<<ZOOM>>> Sound of the point going completely over your head. Your contention is that closer distances, from tee to green, do not equate to anything in either the time taken, or ease of play. Counterpoint is that if that were true, and believable, an 18 hole par three course should take 4+ hours to complete. Except it doesn't. A super crowded par 3 course here in suburban DC takes 2.5 hours - max.

Also, you do understand that a course moving a set of tees forward doesn't close off the other tee boxes, right? The courses aren't suddenly going to plant mums in the 7400++yd Championship Back Tee Machismo Tips that only 4 indexes, or better, can play who think they hit it 330yds on all drives. No sir. Those will still be open, and available. By all means, head back there and show us what that's all about. Be sure to have your USGA card on you, or on file in the pro shop, and have them radio ahead to give you the clearance. Impressed I say, impressed.

What we're talking about, at least what I am talking about, is that the course take the middle set of tees that most of the men would play (my course has five sets), and move them up -- with no indication that has been done. Making a 6500yd course from the whites play 6000yds for a couple days. Study it. Monitor it. See what it does for THEIR COURSE, THEIR players -- and then adapt. Make the whites play so that a 200yd drive yields an accompanying 7i to the green.

By all means though, as I stated in my original post, leave those manly, hairy chested back tees (blue) and Championship Machismo tees (black/green) alone, and playing a full 6700 and 7400yds. In fact, place those two sets in such a way that the 245 to 320yd drives see the narrowest landing area, most hazards, and longest native area growth. We would not want those two sets of tees to reward ANYTHING but a stripped 300 yarder on the sprinklers. Period.

[bladehunter]

tee it forward is a great idea for no other reason than to speed up pace of play...

.But on a trip recently to play some mountain courses (extreme elevation drops) we had a marshall try to get my group to move up from the back tees on the 1st hole...we respectfully declined and he was a bit miffed to say the least...Opening hole is a straight down hill 430 yard par 4.... Im playing with my 15 year old nephew who is scratch and in several amateur state tournamnets etc against older kids....Has all the shots blah blah blah.... He leads off and steps up with driver, then gos back to the bag for 3 wood and proceeds to gut one down the middle... So I pull 3 wood and put one equal distance but on the right hand rough.... we drive by the marshall who wont speak to us by now... We get to our balls and we are left with 155 yards each..... now yes the hole dropped several hundred feet so we aren't claiming 300 yard 3 woods on a normal basis , but the point is if we moved up to the mens or seniors tees we would have been playing drive the green all day.... which is a par 3 course... so tee it forward is not a fit all for people or courses.... I can tee it forward on a 6000 yard course and it feels like cheating.... each par 5 is a long par 4 and it turns several par 4s into driver , pitch-n-putt....or driver eagle putt if im lucky..thats not to say I don't hit errant shots ..I do or else youd be watching me on tv...but ..isn't that cheating? I mean if I lower the hoop in basketball it is, if I use a corked bat it is, why isn't it here? I don't know its a question without any one single answer to me

[diehllane]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1403547689' post='9559285']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403546035' post='9559071']
Great. Then could you and the rest of the Tee It Forward crowd please go play there? Seems like everyone gets what they want - I stay at courses of a reasonable length and accept that rounds take 4+/- hours, and you can go play a par 3 course in 2.5 hours. My courses get less crowded, and you have less crowd to deal with.

EDIT: Waiting on the response "but I don't want to play a par 3 course." Well guess what, I don't want to play a 5400 yard regular course. As paying guests/members, shouldn't we both be entitled to what we want?
[/quote]

<<<ZOOM>>> Sound of the point going completely over your head. Your contention is that closer distances, from tee to green, do not equate to anything in either the time taken, or ease of play. Counterpoint is that if that were true, and believable, an 18 hole par three course should take 4+ hours to complete. Except it doesn't. A super crowded par 3 course here in suburban DC takes 2.5 hours - max.

Also, you do understand that a course moving a set of tees forward doesn't close off the other tee boxes, right? The courses aren't suddenly going to plant mums in the 7400++yd Championship Back Tee Machismo Tips that only 4 indexes, or better, can play who think they hit it 330yds on all drives. No sir. Those will still be open, and available. By all means, head back there and show us what that's all about. Be sure to have your USGA card on you, or on file in the pro shop, and have them radio ahead to give you the clearance. Impressed I say, impressed.

What we're talking about, at least what I am talking about, is that the course take the middle set of tees that most of the men would play (my course has five sets), and move them up -- with no indication that has been done. Making a 6500yd course from the whites play 6000yds for a couple days. Study it. Monitor it. See what it does for THEIR COURSE, THEIR players -- and then adapt. Make the whites play so that a 200yd drive yields an accompanying 7i to the green.

By all means though, as I stated in my original post, leave those manly, hairy chested back tees (blue) and Championship Machismo tees (black/green) alone, and playing a full 6700 and 7400yds. In fact, place those two sets in such a way that the 245 to 320yd drives see the narrowest landing area, most hazards, and longest native area growth. We would not want those two sets of tees to reward ANYTHING but a stripped 300 yarder on the sprinklers. Period.
[/quote]
Wouldn't they need new scorecards for this?
I mean... I'd notice right away if the scorecard distance and my distance at the tee box were 40 yards off on 2 consecutive holes.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='bk52' timestamp='1403545602' post='9558989']
Most golfers, outside the once or twice a season player, make rational decisions as to the tee selected.[/quote]

Not from what I've ever seen. Recreational players are making poor, poor choices on yardage.

[quote]If one maintains a handicap, playing an unrated set of tees makes little sense. Teeing it forward to a set of tees rated solely for women doesn't work.[/quote]

USGA and PGA tell us that most of the ~25,000,000 golfers worldwide do not keep an index of any sort, and are not interested in doing so.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='diehllane' timestamp='1403547922' post='9559315']
Wouldn't they need new scorecards for this?
I mean... I'd notice right away if the scorecard distance and my distance at the tee box were 40 yards off on 2 consecutive holes.[/quote]

Only if the change were permanent, as I understand it.

Also, people on a golf forum are not indicative of the casual golfer. Why would someone who is not even marking a score care that the par 3 was 140 today and not 170? So the par 5 is not playing 577 today, it's playing 527. Think that would matter to folks not on GolfWRX?

Again, not that I've seen.

[CallawayLefty]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1403547689' post='9559285']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403546035' post='9559071']
Great. Then could you and the rest of the Tee It Forward crowd please go play there? Seems like everyone gets what they want - I stay at courses of a reasonable length and accept that rounds take 4+/- hours, and you can go play a par 3 course in 2.5 hours. My courses get less crowded, and you have less crowd to deal with.

EDIT: Waiting on the response "but I don't want to play a par 3 course." Well guess what, I don't want to play a 5400 yard regular course. As paying guests/members, shouldn't we both be entitled to what we want?
[/quote]

<<<ZOOM>>> Sound of the point going completely over your head. Your contention is that closer distances, from tee to green, do not equate to anything in either the time taken, or ease of play. Counterpoint is that if that were true, and believable, an 18 hole par three course should take 4+ hours to complete. Except it doesn't. A super crowded par 3 course here in suburban DC takes 2.5 hours - max.

Also, you do understand that a course moving a set of tees forward doesn't close off the other tee boxes, right? The courses aren't suddenly going to plant mums in the 7400++yd Championship Back Tee Machismo Tips that only 4 indexes, or better, can play who think they hit it 330yds on all drives. No sir. Those will still be open, and available. By all means, head back there and show us what that's all about. Be sure to have your USGA card on you, or on file in the pro shop, and have them radio ahead to give you the clearance. Impressed I say, impressed.

What we're talking about, at least what I am talking about, is that the course take the middle set of tees that most of the men would play (my course has five sets), and move them up -- with no indication that has been done. Making a 6500yd course from the whites play 6000yds for a couple days. Study it. Monitor it. See what it does for THEIR COURSE, THEIR players -- and then adapt. Make the whites play so that a 200yd drive yields an accompanying 7i to the green.

By all means though, as I stated in my original post, leave those manly, hairy chested back tees (blue) and Championship Machismo tees (black/green) alone, and playing a full 6700 and 7400yds. In fact, place those two sets in such a way that the 245 to 320yd drives see the narrowest landing area, most hazards, and longest native area growth. We would not want those two sets of tees to reward ANYTHING but a stripped 300 yarder on the sprinklers. Period.
[/quote]

Oh yeah, look at me, such an animal and braggart suggesting that I should be able to play 6,600 yard tees off of a 4 handicap without somebody scowling at me. You may also have noticed (or failed to notice) that I haven't said a word about how far I hit the ball. How do you know I'm not a 4 handicap that hits his driver 240 but still would like to play from 6,600 yards. And when the hell did 6,600 yards become the tee box reserved for manly and hairy chested players? I remember the first course I grew up playing being 6,400 from the tips and everybody always talking about how short it was back in the EARLY to MID 1990s before we even had titanium drivers.

This is what I mean. It's just scorched earth with the Tee it Forward crowd. You're either "in" and play from 5,400 yards or "out" and play from something longer. There is no further analysis beyond that question. If some nondescript PGA tour player walked up and set his non-staff carry bag down by the black tees, he'd have grimaces from the starter and everybody on the practice green. It doesn't matter to them that he's about to shoot 66 from those tees, just that he's not conforming to their narrow worldview.

[Goldenhawk]

200 yards. No problem. Most GolfWRXer's will tell you that they can get there with a PW from the latest and greatest TM iron with even more stronger lofts.

[highergr0und]

I think the real problem is those that tee it forward don't see the drop in score they expect. People shoot 80 at 7000 yards, expect to shoot around 70 at 5500-6000, and actually end up still shooting around 75 or so.

I wish I had a par 3 course around me.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403532131' post='9556915']
I have read, on more then one occasion, that the average male drives the ball around 200 yards.

200. Yards.

Now, this does not apply to the typical member of this forum, however, it does bring up a few questions.

If such is the case, and the average middle tee box is 6100 to 6200 hundred yards, then the average golfer is very hard pressed to hit most of the par 4's in regulation, since he is probably hitting a hybrid or fairway wood into them. Not to mentions those 180 to 200 yard par 3's.

How much fun is that?

One can extrapolate from that yardage that perhaps his 5-iron may go around 150. If so, and taking the formula from Golf Digest (distance one hit's a 5-iron multiplied by 36), then our intrepid golfer should be playing from about 5400 yards, or stretch it to 5700.

Shocking yes. Probably realistic too.

And, this distance would allow for a few things:

1. Our golfer would be much less frustrated.

2. He would actually get to hit those nice new irons he just purchased.

3. He might actually have more than one birdie putt a round.

4. He would start posting lower scores.

5. Minimizing 180 yard forced carries that our golfer has no realistic chance of pulling off.

6. Maybe, just maybe one of the reasons people leave the game is out of frustration. And, one of those frustrations may be he has no realistic chance of posting a decent score from 6100-6200 yard.

Yes, I know a huge part of this game is ego driven, but golf courses could move the tee boxes up, and have the same color makers.

Anyway, I just thought I throw this out there. I know 5400 to 5700 sounds paltry by GolfWRX standards, but what is the purpose of the game? Having fun, enjoying yourself, or walking off the 18th green miserable and pissed off?

Let's be a bit more realistic, let's have a bit more fun, and perhaps more people will enjoy themselves, and fewer people will leave the game.
[/quote]

There are a lot of assumptions made here that might not necessarily be correct.

The first is that score equates to fun. Not always the case. To a lot of people, golf is about having fun, enjoying a beautiful course and the time with their friends. As someone mentioned a really low score on a really easy course might not provide the satisfaction/fun that a higher score on a really, really tough course provided. The second is that the players strike the ball well but are just lacking distance. How many of us know someone who hits a driver consistently 200, a 5 iron consistently 150, a wedge consistently 100. etc. as compared to someone who hits the ball infrequently? If they hit the ball consistently, then the premise could be correct. Third, how do we know that they are not playing their new irons?

In reality, it's consistency that is lacked. If people are leaving the game, have they tried to improved through lessons, etc. Maybe what's really frustrating them is people telling them what to do and how they should enjoy the game.

[mikes919]

The problem isn't that the average golfer only hits the ball 200 yards. It's how he gets it there.

First he pulls out his brand new SLDR and a brush tee, and hits a massive 80 yard banana slice that ends up three fairways over. Then after waiting for the guys on the next fairway to play through, he spends 5 minutes searching for his Pinnacle. He finally decides to stop looking and take a drop, just into the rough. Then he tops it twice before foot-wedging it back onto the fairway, 200 yards from the tee. Then he'll wait for the group in front of him to get at least 350 yards out, before deciding which club to hit.

Moving up a teebox isn't going to speed up this guy. And all it takes is one or two on a course to slow the whole place down.