Let's Get Real: 200 Yards

[Pigems]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403573641' post='9562651']
There is a certain irony in saying someone should be able to play whatever clubs they choose but can't play whatever tees they choose.
[/quote]

But the best things in life money can't buy, i like the idea of earning your tee privilages

There are far to many things that can be just purchased these days, i like knowing i flat out earned something rather just baught it.

[Medic]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403573641' post='9562651']
There is a certain irony in saying someone should be able to play whatever clubs they choose but can't play whatever tees they choose.
[/quote]

Yes, there is. Good point.

Perhaps the assigned tees could/should be used when the tee sheet is full.

The idea is to keep things going. AND, nothing is permanent. Practice, get better, and see the Range Marshal again to see if perhaps you might be able to dial it back a tee or two.

I played with a gentleman (quite literally) from the UK and he said that you can't just show up and play just any course. You essentially have to take a sort of a test to play at more popular links. And if the course is filled and you are showing signs of being a beginner they won't let you go out.

BTW, he had the most genuine course etiquette - was a true pleasure to have joined up with him.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403571133' post='9562295']
The other guy who joined me was so excited. He couldn't shut up about shooting his lowest score ever, finally reaching this and that par 4 in regulation, hitting an iron on three of the par threes, and having the most fun playing golf than he can remember. He said he always played the blues before. He thanked me profusely for having the "courage" to play the senior tees (his word, not mine).[/quote]

This is what it's about. Quite simply if you enjoy shooting 78 from the tips, do it. If you enjoy shooting 74 from the whites, do it. If you enjoy shooting 120 from the reds, do it. Just don't hold up the course. Right?

[duffer987]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403572988' post='9562569']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403571133' post='9562295']
I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do...as some seem to suggest. However, between people's egos and fear of what others will think, they do make the game more difficult.

For example, last year I went to this course new to me. They had five sets of tee boxes, including senior tees. Being a senior I figured, why not. I get to the first tee and there are three other guys all around my age. Two are together, and the other is a soloist like me.

The twosome ask, "What tees are you playing?" And I say the senior tees. "We always play the blue tees," one of the guys responds in a stentorian voice. They look at the other guy and ask him the same thing. You can see he is really conflicted. He's looking back and forth and finally asks me if I am really going to play the senior tees. I say that I am. Finally, he decides to join me.

The "blues brothers" shot in the mid-90's and if they were having fun they certainly had a weird way of showing it. The other guy who joined me was so excited. He couldn't shut up about shooting his lowest score ever, finally reaching this and that par 4 in regulation, hitting an iron on three of the par threes, and having the most fun playing golf than he can remember. He said he always played the blues before. He thanked me profusely for having the "courage" to play the senior tees (his word, not mine).
[/quote]

What if the Blues Brothers, with the stentorian voices, had fun and you just didn't judge them correctly? What if they were happy to shoot what they did? Why does score have to equal happiness?
[/quote]

Indeed; however, I think this round has made such an impact but to only leave one way for him to look at it



[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1395750160' post='8945753']
Last year went to a municipal that had senior tees. I am a senior so I thought to myself, why not? I was paired with a twosome and a single, all around my age. They asked what tees I was going to play. The twosome said, "We always play the blues," very authoritatively. The single was really struggling. He kept looking back and forth.

"You really playing the senior tees?"
"Sure, why not?" I replied.

He finally joined me. The "blues brothers" shot in the mid-90s. My fellow "senior tee" guy was over joyed. He said it was the best round he ever shot. The first time he ever reached this and that hole in regulation. First time he used an iron on this and that par three. He said he always played the blue tees. He was SO happy. It was nice to see.
[/quote]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1390255756' post='8496935']
For example, last year I went to a muni I haven't played in a few years. The scorecard indicated they had senior tees. I said to myself, "Hey, I'm a senior, I'll give it a go."

I went to the first tee and there were three gentlemen there: a twosome and another single, all around my age. One of the twosome asked me what tees I would be playing. I said the senior tees. In a stentorian voice he said, "We always play the blues." He turned to the other single and asked, "What about you?" You could see guy really struggling with this one. "Are you really going to play the senior tees?" he asked me. "Yeah," I responded. He decided to join me.

The "blues brothers" proceeded to enjoy the entire course, perhaps shooting in the mid-90s. The other single was very excited: "I've never reached that hole in regulation; never used an iron on that par three; never had two birdies before; shot my personal best; never had so much fun," etc. He told me I had a lot of "*alls" to play the senior tees, and in the past he always played the blue tees.

This happened on a couple of occasions (whites instead of blues). In any case, it seems a number of golfers don't tee it forward because they are afraid to. Afraid what their friends will say. Afraid what the people they are paired with will say.
[/quote]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1389643669' post='8453459']
Last year I went to this course that had five sets of tee boxes, including senior tees. I said, "Why not, I'm a senior?" So I was paired with three other guys, all about my age (late 50s). Two were paired together. I told them what I was up to. In a stentorian voice one of the twosome said, "We always play the blues." You could see the other single was really struggling. His ego was putting up a mighty battle. Finally he decided to join me on the senior tees.

At the end of the round the "Blues" brothers shot in the mid-90s. The other single was so excited. He shot an 82, a career low. He kept saying how this was the first time he ever reached this and that par 4 in regulation, and how that's the first birdie he had in ages, and he hasn't had that much fun playing golf in years (he usually plays the blue tees). He was so happy and it was really nice to see. :-)
[/quote]

Been upgraded to being courageous now though! Rosa Parks of the tee box

[JimNewton]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403573641' post='9562651']
There is a certain irony in saying someone should be able to play whatever clubs they choose but can't play whatever tees they choose.
[/quote]

Well the point is when someone plays the very wrong tee it starts to affect others around them. If there's nobody around and you drive the ball 100 yards, sure play the championship tees if you'd like. (have fun with that...)

[Mr22putt]

Yes...I believe the average male drive is only 200 yards.

The average males shoots in the mid to high 90's....maybe worse.
They also spray the ball.
For every 220-230 yd drive there's a 170-180 yard whiff.

[Asiz]

My most enjoyable rounds are from the red tees. But I feel a tangible stigma from not only the men but especially the women when they see me teeing off from the reds. Now, when that gets fixed, I'm all for teeing forward.

[duffer987]

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403574013' post='9562725']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403573641' post='9562651']
There is a certain irony in saying someone should be able to play whatever clubs they choose but can't play whatever tees they choose.
[/quote]

Yes, there is. Good point.

Perhaps the assigned tees could/should be used when the tee sheet is full.

The idea is to keep things going. AND, nothing is permanent. Practice, get better, and see the Range Marshal again to see if perhaps you might be able to dial it back a tee or two.

I played with a gentleman (quite literally) from the UK and he said that you can't just show up and play just any course. You essentially have to take a sort of a test to play at more popular links. And if the course is filled and you are showing signs of being a beginner they won't let you go out.

BTW, he had the most genuine course etiquette - was a true pleasure to have joined up with him.
[/quote]

Actually playing in the UK/Ireland would largely remove the need to even have a tee debate, as a lot of clubs simply set up two sets of tees on the day, you could even call them mens and ladies if that is not too patriarchal

There is no 'test' as such - or I've not seen one - modest courses wouldn't ask and the big marquee ones simply may ask that you show your handicap card or letter from your club before you tee off or if you are spraying it all over the shop.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='JimNewton' timestamp='1403574639' post='9562817']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403573641' post='9562651']
There is a certain irony in saying someone should be able to play whatever clubs they choose but can't play whatever tees they choose.
[/quote]

Well the point is when someone plays the very wrong tee it starts to affect others around them. If there's nobody around and you drive the ball 100 yards, sure play the championship tees if you'd like. (have fun with that...)
[/quote]

Jim is the same true with club choice?

[ruascott]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1403564435' post='9561517']
I read somewhere that only 10% in the world of Golf actually breaks into the 80's consistently. So lets say there are 10million Golfers, only 1million could break 80's consistently.

That leaves 9 million people struggling to to make no better than bogey golf or worse. Now Im sure there is more than 10million golfers but thats just a number example.

Moving the tees are not the only problem as anyone can hit a lucky 200 yard driver. Unfortunately thats is what many "average golfers" think, they might get lucky to hit that 200+ yard drive. But realistically, they will shank it, hook it, top it, drop kick it 50 yards max.... Out of 18 holes 14 of which you can use driver, they will hit maybe 1 driver that is good maybe 2. The rest are all over the creation.

Now that person will use a 4 iron, a 3 wood whatever long iron/hybrid/wood to hit and what.... maybe advance forward 50 more yards at best. The cycle continues. Till they are laying 6 10 yards from the green, chipping for 7 putting 8 or 9.

We have all seen it.

I dont have a good solution, but what could work is, if they guy takes more than 2 shots to reach the average distance of a second shot to the hole, pick up and place the ball at the 150 marker and have at it.

Example, 400 Yard par 4, 250 to to the 150yard marker, If the guy takes 2 swipes and doesnt reach the 150, pick up and drop at that marker and go from there. (Driver, duff off tee 50 yards, 3 wood duff 30 yards, they only moved 80yards total, good gawd if we have to wait to they hit another 170 yards total to get to the 150.....pick up and go to the 150 marker)

Shortening the course, wont help and asking the course to modify the course would only increase cost to play. So its really up to the player to say hey I need to work on my driver, to make this game easier, lets drop the ball at distance that I know I can hit it.

Here is another example of choice rather than ego, a scratch handicap not playing in a tournament/for money etc and only for fun. The ball is on a root of a tree, hitting it could injure them. Does the scratch player move the ball back a little as not to injure themselves, again no money game just out there. I would assume they would move the ball. Knowing the risks and their ability its not worth it.

So whats the different from a 30 handicap trying to hit over water thats 200 yards carry. Hit it, but drop it after the water and call it a day, why keep trying to hit over the water?

*steps off soap box*
[/quote]

You're percentages about breaking 80 are probably correct, but you then jump to the conclusion that everyone else are total duffs that can't advance the ball 100 yards off the tee. That's a total inaccurate assumption for the vast majority of players.

Most guys will make decent contact off the tee, but maybe spray it around a bit. Yes they don't pure every shot, but they aren't hitting like you describe.

Not that many 30+ handicaps play that much golf. It's mainly 10 to 20 players out there...and they are nothing like you describe.

[DavePelz4]

The OP isn't following the thread but...if the group in front of you is on, or ahead of pace, do you care about their tee box choice, score or choice of clubs?

[Pigems]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403575745' post='9562969']
The OP isn't following the thread but...if the group in front of you is on, or ahead of pace, do you care about their tee box choice, score or choice of clubs?
[/quote]

If theyre on pace I couldnt care if they were playing with Crochet Mallets

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403575745' post='9562969']
The OP isn't following the thread but...if the group in front of you is on, or ahead of pace, do you care about their tee box choice, score or choice of clubs?[/quote]

If they are in position on the course, and on pace, or ahead of pace: Tee off from the treeline 100yds behind every tee box if you like. Use driver for every shot. Or carry 14 wedges.

If they are two holes back, but "on pace" for whatever arbitrary number the course set, and I am leaning on a club often, then I start to care.

ETA: When I was in Scotland several years back, I believe the starter house at St. Andrews had a sign that stated they expected a round to be completed in 3.5 hours. It's not like St. Andrew's is easy, right?

[duffer987]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403575745' post='9562969']
The OP isn't following the thread but...if the group in front of you is on, or ahead of pace, do you care about their tee box choice, score or choice of clubs?
[/quote]

I don't give a toss with the group I'm actually in, if we're making good time and enjoying ourselves. Unless there is a pint on the line, then yes to the score

I think to really show you have the courage to tee it up from wherever, you shouldn't be confined by the construct of the traditional 'tee box'.
On a short par 3, tee it up from the previous hole's green... still don't have a birdie? No prob, tee it up from the 200 marker on a par 5 = 3 putt birdie!
That's the kind of disruptive, out-of-the-box, paradigm shifting answer to getting real about tees!

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1403575970' post='9562997']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403575745' post='9562969']
The OP isn't following the thread but...if the group in front of you is on, or ahead of pace, do you care about their tee box choice, score or choice of clubs?
[/quote]

If theyre on pace I couldnt care if they were playing with Crochet Mallets
[/quote]

Maybe they'll make us new putter covers at the 19th hole.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='ABgolfer2' timestamp='1403576543' post='9563099']
[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1403575970' post='9562997']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403575745' post='9562969']
The OP isn't following the thread but...if the group in front of you is on, or ahead of pace, do you care about their tee box choice, score or choice of clubs?
[/quote]

If theyre on pace I couldnt care if they were playing with Crochet Mallets
[/quote]

Maybe they'll make us new putter covers at the 19th hole.
[/quote]

Real croquet players use blades, not croquet mallets.

[SHIVAN]

Likely been posted before, but I was in search of a picture of the starter house admonition from St. Andrews for 3.5 hours and found this:

[url]http://www.popeofslope.com/paceofplay/[/url]

[Sean2]

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403571554' post='9562375']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403571133' post='9562295']
He thanked me profusely for having the "courage" to play the senior tees (his word, not mine).
[/quote]

The "Range Marshal" would also be taking note of distances off the drive. Hit it straight - great. But that still would not net you a gold card. (Gold = tips) Now this Range Marshal would need to know the distances on the range. And he would call out, "Ok, this time I want you to hit to the green flag on the left. It is 142 yards." Sort of like a driving test (Division of Motor Vehicles comparison)

Once you are issued a tee color he radios into the pro shop and at the end of your round you pick up your course ID card in your tee color. "Range Marshal to pro shop. Player Sean blue card. Player Jim blue card. Over"

Then, when you come back to the same course you simply show your tee card and a photo ID and you don't have to go through the Range Marshal again.
[/quote]

Interesting concept Jim. I can imagine how some folks would react to that though when they discovered how far they actually hit the ball and/or being told what tees they have to hit from. :-)

[Sean2]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403572988' post='9562569']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403571133' post='9562295']
[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403569354' post='9562051']
Sean, great post. (as usual)

When I have a new Paramedic training with me I always tell them the same bad news. Noone is ever as good as they think they are. In any aspect of their lives.
My goal is to get them to have a realistic approach to the way I teach - minimum intervention for maximum effects. The more you do, the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. And you are probably spending too much time on scene doing it.

To your point most golfers believe that they are better than they really are. So taking on 6600 for the average Joe seems quite natural. Sadly they don't seem to realize that their "280 drive" was actually more like 200 carry and about 15 of roll for a total under 220. And this was their long drive.

But...

The courses are largely to blame.

Few of them post signs on the first tee indicating which tee you should play if your "normal score" (since so many players have no handicap) is such and such number. Imagine pulling up to the first tee and stopping at the tips. There is a sign "This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." And as you move to the other tees each one is well marked telling players where they should play.

Few courses truly empower their Marshals. They are nothing more than roving mall cops. Sure, they look tough and all with the fancy cart and radio but in reality they have no powers of arrest. They need to have real and very perceived power - follow their instructions or find yourself booted with no refund and no return.

Few courses offer a try out on the range. Imagine you get all warmed up and then you go and demonstrate your skills in front of a range marshal who then gives you a scorecard that shows the color tee marker you have been approved to play. Hit some great drives, mid irons, short irons, and chips and you can play from the tips. Slice it all over the place, hit some worm burners, or swing and miss and your card is going to indicate the very front "kiddy tees".

Finally few courses offer classes in true etiquette. And few courses also care enough to openly advertise a strict policy on pace of play.

There are a lot of threads on this. Most don't hit on the real issue. People simply are never as good as they think they are.
[/quote]

I, on the other hand, think I am worse than I probably really am. (I read too much Dostoyevsky...he will do that too you).

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do...as some seem to suggest. However, between people's egos and fear of what others will think, they do make the game more difficult.

For example, last year I went to this course new to me. They had five sets of tee boxes, including senior tees. Being a senior I figured, why not. I get to the first tee and there are three other guys all around my age. Two are together, and the other is a soloist like me.

The twosome ask, "What tees are you playing?" And I say the senior tees. "We always play the blue tees," one of the guys responds in a stentorian voice. They look at the other guy and ask him the same thing. You can see he is really conflicted. He's looking back and forth and finally asks me if I am really going to play the senior tees. I say that I am. Finally, he decides to join me.

The "blues brothers" shot in the mid-90's and if they were having fun they certainly had a weird way of showing it. The other guy who joined me was so excited. He couldn't shut up about shooting his lowest score ever, finally reaching this and that par 4 in regulation, hitting an iron on three of the par threes, and having the most fun playing golf than he can remember. He said he always played the blues before. He thanked me profusely for having the "courage" to play the senior tees (his word, not mine).
[/quote]

What if the Blues Brothers, with the stentorian voices, had fun and you just didn't judge them correctly? What if they were happy to shoot what they did? Why does score have to equal happiness?
[/quote]

Well, let's see. When you have fun do you do the following:

1. Swear?

2. Make an excuse for every shot you mishit?

3. Toss your club in disgust?

4. Stomp off the green before everyone has finished playing the hole?

Yes, perhaps they WERE having fun. Yes, perhaps I DID misjudge them.

[DavePelz4]

What about the stentorian voices?

[Sean2]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1403574534' post='9562809']

Been upgraded to being courageous now though! Rosa Parks of the tee box
[/quote]

Not even. :-)

[Sean2]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403577447' post='9563245']
What about the stentorian voices?
[/quote]

What about them? Does being obtuse come naturally, or is it something you have had to work at?

[DavePelz4]

1. I don't swear.
2. I hit bad shots. Too often.
3. I have never tossed a club.
4. I don't stomp...it can leave marks on the green and I have too much respect for the course and the people I play with.

In spite of how bad I can play, it's always fun because of my friends, a great course and I know tomorrow could be better. I'm just happy that I'm not judged because I play GI clubs, from a tee I can play in 4 hours and that no one has done something inappropriate in my breakfast cereal, in a stentorian voice.

[Break81]

Shorter players are better suited for executive courses. I have no problem with anyone playing a championship course as long as they play ready golf. I have played with older guys who can barely drive 180 and they shoot mid-low 80's. They keep the ball in play and are deadly from 50 yards in.

But yeah they need to build more executive courses for the beginners and shorter hitters and for the youth players as well.

[Sean2]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403577976' post='9563293']
1. I don't swear.
2. I hit bad shots. Too often.
3. I have never tossed a club.
4. I don't stomp...it can leave marks on the green and I have too much respect for the course and the people I play with.

In spite of how bad I can play, it's always fun because of my friends, a great course and I know tomorrow could be better. I'm just happy that I'm not judged because I play GI clubs, from a tee I can play in 4 hours and that no one has done something inappropriate in my breakfast cereal, in a stentorian voice.
[/quote]

You asked me the following:

[color=#0000cd]"What if the Blues Brothers, with the stentorian voices, had fun and you just didn't judge them correctly?"[/color]

This is what THEY did! I thought you could figure that out. This was my response:

[color=#0000cd]Well, let's see. When you have fun do you do the following:

1. Swear?

2. Make an excuse for every shot you mishit?

3. Toss your club in disgust?

4. Stomp off the green before everyone has finished playing the hole?[/color]

Now, most people could probably figure out that the aforementioned does not equate with fun. But then again, perhaps not...

[Whatsinthebag]

Followed a group on Sunday who fit this discussion. Playing from the 6500 tees, they would typically hit it out about 100 yards and then wait to hit their next shot. I would like to see golf courses require a handicap and then have the players go off the appropriate tees. I'm tired of getting behind guys who play the wrong tees and then wait in the fairway to hit when they have no realistic chance of getting there. If they forced you to play from the right set of tees, the rounds would be faster and more enjoyable to everyone. The tee it forward plan is definitely not working.

[Pigems]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403576714' post='9563131']
[quote name='ABgolfer2' timestamp='1403576543' post='9563099']
[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1403575970' post='9562997']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1403575745' post='9562969']
The OP isn't following the thread but...if the group in front of you is on, or ahead of pace, do you care about their tee box choice, score or choice of clubs?
[/quote]

If theyre on pace I couldnt care if they were playing with Crochet Mallets
[/quote]

Maybe they'll make us new putter covers at the 19th hole.
[/quote]

Real croquet players use blades, not croquet mallets.
[/quote]

I smell i new thread coming, Mallets vs Blades on CroquetWRX

[Sean2]

[quote name='Whatsinthebag' timestamp='1403578675' post='9563397']
Followed a group on Sunday who fit this discussion. Playing from the 6500 tees, they would typically hit it out about 100 yards and then wait to hit their next shot. I would like to see golf courses require a handicap and then have the players go off the appropriate tees. I'm tired of getting behind guys who play the wrong tees and then wait in the fairway to hit when they have no realistic chance of getting there. If they forced you to play from the right set of tees, the rounds would be faster and more enjoyable to everyone. The tee it forward plan is definitely not working.
[/quote]

500 yard par five. 200 yard tee shot. 300 yards to the green. They wait for the green to clear to hit their second shots. In the mean time the tee box gets stacked. :-)

[Startzel]

Thank you for the doing the research duffer. I was thinking to myself, I know I've read this story at least half a dozen times.

I couldn't give a bippity bop which tee someone plays.

[Titleist 670]

I still think slow players will be slow and fast players will be fast. Asking "what is the fun of shooting 100 (or whatever score)" is kind of silly. Someone who shoots 65s could ask someone who shoots 80 what is the fun of shooting 80? Go play a 4500 yard course.

The person who shoots 80 would say "well I play in 3 hours, why do you care?"

If people play 6500 yards in 3 hours, I couldn't care less.