Let's Get Real: 200 Yards

[bladehunter]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1403564435' post='9561517']
I read somewhere that only 10% in the world of Golf actually breaks into the 80's consistently. So lets say there are 10million Golfers, only 1million could break 80's consistently.

That leaves 9 million people struggling to to make no better than bogey golf or worse. Now Im sure there is more than 10million golfers but thats just a number example.

Moving the tees are not the only problem as anyone can hit a lucky 200 yard driver. Unfortunately thats is what many "average golfers" think, they might get lucky to hit that 200+ yard drive. But realistically, they will shank it, hook it, top it, drop kick it 50 yards max.... Out of 18 holes 14 of which you can use driver, they will hit maybe 1 driver that is good maybe 2. The rest are all over the creation.

Now that person will use a 4 iron, a 3 wood whatever long iron/hybrid/wood to hit and what.... maybe advance forward 50 more yards at best. The cycle continues. Till they are laying 6 10 yards from the green, chipping for 7 putting 8 or 9.

We have all seen it.

I dont have a good solution, but what could work is, if they guy takes more than 2 shots to reach the average distance of a second shot to the hole, pick up and place the ball at the 150 marker and have at it.

Example, 400 Yard par 4, 250 to to the 150yard marker, If the guy takes 2 swipes and doesnt reach the 150, pick up and drop at that marker and go from there. (Driver, duff off tee 50 yards, 3 wood duff 30 yards, they only moved 80yards total, good gawd if we have to wait to they hit another 170 yards total to get to the 150.....pick up and go to the 150 marker)

Shortening the course, wont help and asking the course to modify the course would only increase cost to play. So its really up to the player to say hey I need to work on my driver, to make this game easier, lets drop the ball at distance that I know I can hit it.

Here is another example of choice rather than ego, a scratch handicap not playing in a tournament/for money etc and only for fun. The ball is on a root of a tree, hitting it could injure them. Does the scratch player move the ball back a little as not to injure themselves, again no money game just out there. I would assume they would move the ball. Knowing the risks and their ability its not worth it.

So whats the different from a 30 handicap trying to hit over water thats 200 yards carry. Hit it, but drop it after the water and call it a day, why keep trying to hit over the water?

*steps off soap box*
[/quote]


so whats the carry to the pin off this root????

[Exactice808]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1403566220' post='9561701']
[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1403564435' post='9561517']
I read somewhere that only 10% in the world of Golf actually breaks into the 80's consistently. So lets say there are 10million Golfers, only 1million could break 80's consistently.

That leaves 9 million people struggling to to make no better than bogey golf or worse. Now Im sure there is more than 10million golfers but thats just a number example.

Moving the tees are not the only problem as anyone can hit a lucky 200 yard driver. Unfortunately thats is what many "average golfers" think, they might get lucky to hit that 200+ yard drive. But realistically, they will shank it, hook it, top it, drop kick it 50 yards max.... Out of 18 holes 14 of which you can use driver, they will hit maybe 1 driver that is good maybe 2. The rest are all over the creation.

Now that person will use a 4 iron, a 3 wood whatever long iron/hybrid/wood to hit and what.... maybe advance forward 50 more yards at best. The cycle continues. Till they are laying 6 10 yards from the green, chipping for 7 putting 8 or 9.

We have all seen it.

I dont have a good solution, but what could work is, if they guy takes more than 2 shots to reach the average distance of a second shot to the hole, pick up and place the ball at the 150 marker and have at it.

Example, 400 Yard par 4, 250 to to the 150yard marker, If the guy takes 2 swipes and doesnt reach the 150, pick up and drop at that marker and go from there. (Driver, duff off tee 50 yards, 3 wood duff 30 yards, they only moved 80yards total, good gawd if we have to wait to they hit another 170 yards total to get to the 150.....pick up and go to the 150 marker)

Shortening the course, wont help and asking the course to modify the course would only increase cost to play. So its really up to the player to say hey I need to work on my driver, to make this game easier, lets drop the ball at distance that I know I can hit it.

Here is another example of choice rather than ego, a scratch handicap not playing in a tournament/for money etc and only for fun. The ball is on a root of a tree, hitting it could injure them. Does the scratch player move the ball back a little as not to injure themselves, again no money game just out there. I would assume they would move the ball. Knowing the risks and their ability its not worth it.

So whats the different from a 30 handicap trying to hit over water thats 200 yards carry. Hit it, but drop it after the water and call it a day, why keep trying to hit over the water?

*steps off soap box*
[/quote]


so whats the carry to the pin off this root????
[/quote]


HAHAHAAHAH YOU SONNVA !@#$%^&*!!!!!!!!!!

[Pigems]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1403565288' post='9561609']
[quote name='mesquite2' timestamp='1403545621' post='9558993']
Michelle Wie last week on the Golf Channel said her 7 iron distance was 155 yards, so I can see where the average golfer would hit a 5 iron about the same distance. Trouble is that they mostly all play the blues, because " the whites are too short". I hear it all the time.
[/quote]

This is the other thing....Michelle Wie can hit her 7 Iron 155 yards 95% of the time on demand how she wants to when she wants to, with the flight she wants.

The average golfer, may hit their 7 iron 155 but if its clean crisp, but do they know how to hit a draw, fade, high, low etc. They have no Idea, they just know that at the driving range the ball lands somewhere by the 150 marker. Out of a basket of 100 balls at the 150 marker... .maybe 1 ball will actually hit the marker. The rest of the balls could be left, right 20 yards from it.....

So averages of distance doesnt mean consistency, ball striking and dispersion.... But "GolfWRX I can hit a 300 yard drive.... but I have no Idea where..... 300 yards left into the parking lot...300 yards right into the houses...... But GOLFWRX I can Still hit it 300 yards!!!!!!!".....ppfffff wtf ever.....
[/quote]

If I swing with every last bit I have in me I can drive a ball 300 yards in any direction...Except for Straight lol

But with my regular slower smoother swing I can hit it 230-245 relatively straight all day long

[Pigems]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1403566220' post='9561701']
[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1403564435' post='9561517']
I read somewhere that only 10% in the world of Golf actually breaks into the 80's consistently. So lets say there are 10million Golfers, only 1million could break 80's consistently.

That leaves 9 million people struggling to to make no better than bogey golf or worse. Now Im sure there is more than 10million golfers but thats just a number example.

Moving the tees are not the only problem as anyone can hit a lucky 200 yard driver. Unfortunately thats is what many "average golfers" think, they might get lucky to hit that 200+ yard drive. But realistically, they will shank it, hook it, top it, drop kick it 50 yards max.... Out of 18 holes 14 of which you can use driver, they will hit maybe 1 driver that is good maybe 2. The rest are all over the creation.

Now that person will use a 4 iron, a 3 wood whatever long iron/hybrid/wood to hit and what.... maybe advance forward 50 more yards at best. The cycle continues. Till they are laying 6 10 yards from the green, chipping for 7 putting 8 or 9.

We have all seen it.

I dont have a good solution, but what could work is, if they guy takes more than 2 shots to reach the average distance of a second shot to the hole, pick up and place the ball at the 150 marker and have at it.

Example, 400 Yard par 4, 250 to to the 150yard marker, If the guy takes 2 swipes and doesnt reach the 150, pick up and drop at that marker and go from there. (Driver, duff off tee 50 yards, 3 wood duff 30 yards, they only moved 80yards total, good gawd if we have to wait to they hit another 170 yards total to get to the 150.....pick up and go to the 150 marker)

Shortening the course, wont help and asking the course to modify the course would only increase cost to play. So its really up to the player to say hey I need to work on my driver, to make this game easier, lets drop the ball at distance that I know I can hit it.

Here is another example of choice rather than ego, a scratch handicap not playing in a tournament/for money etc and only for fun. The ball is on a root of a tree, hitting it could injure them. Does the scratch player move the ball back a little as not to injure themselves, again no money game just out there. I would assume they would move the ball. Knowing the risks and their ability its not worth it.

So whats the different from a 30 handicap trying to hit over water thats 200 yards carry. Hit it, but drop it after the water and call it a day, why keep trying to hit over the water?

*steps off soap box*
[/quote]


so whats the carry to the pin off this root????
[/quote]


Carry is 145, but you gotta keep it under that branch, and then get it up over that tree

[TJCDAS]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1403564435' post='9561517']
I read somewhere that only 10% in the world of Golf actually breaks into the 80's consistently. So lets say there are 10million Golfers, only 1million could break 80's consistently.

That leaves 9 million people struggling to to make no better than bogey golf or worse. Now Im sure there is more than 10million golfers but thats just a number example.

Moving the tees are not the only problem as anyone can hit a lucky 200 yard driver. Unfortunately thats is what many "average golfers" think, they might get lucky to hit that 200+ yard drive. But realistically, they will shank it, hook it, top it, drop kick it 50 yards max.... Out of 18 holes 14 of which you can use driver, they will hit maybe 1 driver that is good maybe 2. The rest are all over the creation.

Now that person will use a 4 iron, a 3 wood whatever long iron/hybrid/wood to hit and what.... maybe advance forward 50 more yards at best. The cycle continues. Till they are laying 6 10 yards from the green, chipping for 7 putting 8 or 9.

We have all seen it.

I dont have a good solution, but what could work is, if they guy takes more than 2 shots to reach the average distance of a second shot to the hole, pick up and place the ball at the 150 marker and have at it.

Example, 400 Yard par 4, 250 to to the 150yard marker, If the guy takes 2 swipes and doesnt reach the 150, pick up and drop at that marker and go from there. (Driver, duff off tee 50 yards, 3 wood duff 30 yards, they only moved 80yards total, good gawd if we have to wait to they hit another 170 yards total to get to the 150.....pick up and go to the 150 marker)

Shortening the course, wont help and asking the course to modify the course would only increase cost to play. So its really up to the player to say hey I need to work on my driver, to make this game easier, lets drop the ball at distance that I know I can hit it.

Here is another example of choice rather than ego, a scratch handicap not playing in a tournament/for money etc and only for fun. The ball is on a root of a tree, hitting it could injure them. Does the scratch player move the ball back a little as not to injure themselves, again no money game just out there. I would assume they would move the ball. Knowing the risks and their ability its not worth it.

So whats the different from a 30 handicap trying to hit over water thats 200 yards carry. Hit it, but drop it after the water and call it a day, why keep trying to hit over the water?

*steps off soap box*
[/quote]

Breaking 80 puts you in the 98th percentile, only 2% break 80.

[bladehunter]

sorry guys I couldn't resist....on a serious note though my mind would want to hit it...if it were 8 iron or less I could pick it off 99 out of 100 ...the 100th time id go to the ER... I tell people im self taught at everything..they think that's an admirable trait..it really just means I hurt myself and or screw up a lot..while everyone else listens to the good advice of others...

[TJCDAS]

[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1403567087' post='9561807']
[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1403565288' post='9561609']
[quote name='mesquite2' timestamp='1403545621' post='9558993']
Michelle Wie last week on the Golf Channel said her 7 iron distance was 155 yards, so I can see where the average golfer would hit a 5 iron about the same distance. Trouble is that they mostly all play the blues, because " the whites are too short". I hear it all the time.
[/quote]

This is the other thing....Michelle Wie can hit her 7 Iron 155 yards 95% of the time on demand how she wants to when she wants to, with the flight she wants.

The average golfer, may hit their 7 iron 155 but if its clean crisp, but do they know how to hit a draw, fade, high, low etc. They have no Idea, they just know that at the driving range the ball lands somewhere by the 150 marker. Out of a basket of 100 balls at the 150 marker... .maybe 1 ball will actually hit the marker. The rest of the balls could be left, right 20 yards from it.....

So averages of distance doesnt mean consistency, ball striking and dispersion.... But "GolfWRX I can hit a 300 yard drive.... but I have no Idea where..... 300 yards left into the parking lot...300 yards right into the houses...... But GOLFWRX I can Still hit it 300 yards!!!!!!!".....ppfffff wtf ever.....
[/quote]

If I swing with every last bit I have in me I can drive a ball 300 yards in any direction...Except for Straight lol

But with my regular slower smoother swing I can hit it 230-245 relatively straight all day long
[/quote]

How many "years" has it been since you have attempted a slower smooth driver swing?

[Pigems]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1403567994' post='9561925']
sorry guys I couldn't resist....on a serious note though my mind would want to hit it...if it were 8 iron or less I could pick it off 99 out of 100 ...the 100th time id go to the ER... I tell people im self taught at everything..they think that's an admirable trait..it really just means I hurt myself and or screw up a lot..while everyone else listens to the good advice of others...
[/quote]


In most cases the only time ill move my ball is if I think I might damage a club, I heal for free, My clubs dont

[Pigems]

[quote name='TJCDAS' timestamp='1403568078' post='9561929']
[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1403567087' post='9561807']
[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1403565288' post='9561609']
[quote name='mesquite2' timestamp='1403545621' post='9558993']
Michelle Wie last week on the Golf Channel said her 7 iron distance was 155 yards, so I can see where the average golfer would hit a 5 iron about the same distance. Trouble is that they mostly all play the blues, because " the whites are too short". I hear it all the time.
[/quote]

This is the other thing....Michelle Wie can hit her 7 Iron 155 yards 95% of the time on demand how she wants to when she wants to, with the flight she wants.

The average golfer, may hit their 7 iron 155 but if its clean crisp, but do they know how to hit a draw, fade, high, low etc. They have no Idea, they just know that at the driving range the ball lands somewhere by the 150 marker. Out of a basket of 100 balls at the 150 marker... .maybe 1 ball will actually hit the marker. The rest of the balls could be left, right 20 yards from it.....

So averages of distance doesnt mean consistency, ball striking and dispersion.... But "GolfWRX I can hit a 300 yard drive.... but I have no Idea where..... 300 yards left into the parking lot...300 yards right into the houses...... But GOLFWRX I can Still hit it 300 yards!!!!!!!".....ppfffff wtf ever.....
[/quote]

If I swing with every last bit I have in me I can drive a ball 300 yards in any direction...Except for Straight lol

But with my regular slower smoother swing I can hit it 230-245 relatively straight all day long
[/quote]

How many "years" has it been since you have attempted a slower smooth driver swing?
[/quote]

Well ive been playing for 16 years sooooo....roughly 16 years?

[Sebmour]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1403565959' post='9561673']
[quote name='Sebmour' timestamp='1403565558' post='9561633']
I came to that conclusion and I had members test it at my club. They played faster, played better and enjoyed it more. They won't play from there all the time because of the social pressure and jugement they get from other members. It's sad honestly!
[/quote]

hello fellow Montrealer!

We do a weekly skins at my course, and late in the season we'll play from the ladies tees some of the weekends and yes it is a lot of fun. You get guys making 6-8 birdies in a round and guys shooting 65....We talk about it being a lot of fun....but at the end of the day i don't think people want to play from there every week

If higher handicaps/beginners want to play from there....i really don't think anyone would mock them or anything....would that happen at your course?
[/quote]

Maybe not mock them but they will judge and ask them why are they playing from the ladies tee...Cranky old dudes will always be cranky old dudes.

[Sean2]

[quote name='bk52' timestamp='1403545602' post='9558989']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403534089' post='9557237'] It takes a bit of courage to move up. Most golfers simply don't have the balls to do so. They are afraid of what other will say or think, even though deep down they might love to move up. [/quote]

A bit of hyperbole being used here.

Most golfers, outside the once or twice a season player, make rational decisions as to the tee selected. If one maintains a handicap, playing an unrated set of tees makes little sense. Teeing it forward to a set of tees rated solely for women doesn't work. Others just go along with their buddies and play whatever tee they select. They are often perfectly happy shooting 100+ because golf is more about the social aspects than score. If score really mattered, they would be taking lessons. To me, it is a small group of players who secretly desire to play shorter sets of tees but are concerned about the reaction of their friends. They are unlikely to make a change despite all the encouragement from the media and others.

There is no universal formula for making golf fun. I happen to agree that shooting in the 70's on a relatively short set of tees is a lot more fun than grinding out 105 from some enormously long set of tees. But there are those who appreciate the challenge more than the ultimate score. Defining for others what is "fun" is not something we should attempt.
[/quote]

Than why do I see people throwing clubs, cursing and what not? Then again, perhaps that is how they show they are having fun.

[Sean2]

[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403546035' post='9559071']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1403545436' post='9558973']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403540181' post='9558221']
[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1403538358' post='9557917']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403536231' post='9557587']
Again we assume that they just striped their 200 yard tee ball. Let's do this math problem. Hole A is 350 yards. Player tops his drive 30 feet. What's he hitting next? Hole B is 310 yards. Player tops his drive 30 feet. What's he hitting next?

If you want to debate whether a guy who is a 15 handicap should move up from the back tees, that's one thing. But that guy, just by definition of having a handicap and having it be under 30 is probably already in the top 10% of golfers.
[/quote]

Seems like you are being obtuse on purpose. Using an extreme strawman to help prop up your disagreement does not really help anyone in a discussion forum, or real life.

The fact is that a vast majority of golfers are not going to hit the ball 30yds on every shot. It's been shown that the average is 200yds. Unlike GolfWRX average, that is likely a [u][b]true[/b][/u] median distance, illustrated on a bell curve over some sample population size, number of courses, etc.

Further, the ball does not need to be stripped. Let's say they worm-burn it 180, on a 360yd par 4. Now they have 180 left. If that tee was up at 320, they would have 140 left. HUGE difference.
[/quote]

I think the reason I am being obtuse is because I view the entire Tee It Forward movement as obtuse. Not sure why my example is an extreme strawman but the "Iron Byron" hypothetical players that everyone who is in support of Tee It Forward uses are completely valid. It just seems to me like the Tee It Forward crowd looks at everything in a vacuum. Is it easier to hit a 9 iron than a 5 iron? Yes, I would agree that it is. But it's always based on the assumption that the player in question can actually make appropriate contact with the shot that gets them to the 9 iron and can then make appropriate contact with the 9 iron itself. It ignores things like directional mishits, poor contact, duffs, whiffs, misses, etc. and points solely to the length of the club in someone's hands as the dictating factor for how quickly that person can move around the course and how much they'll enjoy it. I would submit that bad golfers are just bad, and moving them around on tee boxes doesn't do MUCH for them or anybody else.
[/quote]

An 18 hole par three course takes 2.5 hours to play - walking - in 100 degree heat, and 90% humidity. Wonder why it only takes 2.5 hours for 18? Let me think......
[/quote]

Great. Then could you and the rest of the Tee It Forward crowd please go play there? Seems like everyone gets what they want - I stay at courses of a reasonable length and accept that rounds take 4+/- hours, and you can go play a par 3 course in 2.5 hours. My courses get less crowded, and you have less crowd to deal with.

EDIT: Waiting on the response "but I don't want to play a par 3 course." [b]Well guess what, I don't want to play a 5400 yard regular course.[/b] As paying guests/members, shouldn't we both be entitled to what we want?
[/quote]

What "Tee it Forward" crowd? The only one I hear talking about it is Jack Nicklaus. I don't hear about it at our local golf courses.

In my original post I [b]suggested[/b] that the [b]average[/b] golfer [b]might[/b] enjoy himself if he played between 5400 - 5700 yards. I also said that most on this forum probably don't represent the average golfer.

No one said YOU MUST play from 5400 yards.

Where do some of you guys come up with this stuff?

[BillyZ2]

Here's a local course that is a good test @ 6253 from the White tees (middle). When I get to the 446 par 4 it takes two great hits by me to reach the green. Although one time I hit over the green with my 5 wood approach shot. My landing distance is usually at about the 200 yard marker. One 400 yard hole per 9 is plenty enough.

[Medic]

Sean, great post. (as usual)

When I have a new Paramedic training with me I always tell them the same bad news. Noone is ever as good as they think they are. In any aspect of their lives.
My goal is to get them to have a realistic approach to the way I teach - minimum intervention for maximum effects. The more you do, the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. And you are probably spending too much time on scene doing it.

To your point most golfers believe that they are better than they really are. So taking on 6600 for the average Joe seems quite natural. Sadly they don't seem to realize that their "280 drive" was actually more like 200 carry and about 15 of roll for a total under 220. And this was their long drive.

But...

The courses are largely to blame.

Few of them post signs on the first tee indicating which tee you should play if your "normal score" (since so many players have no handicap) is such and such number. Imagine pulling up to the first tee and stopping at the tips. There is a sign "This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." And as you move to the other tees each one is well marked telling players where they should play.

Few courses truly empower their Marshals. They are nothing more than roving mall cops. Sure, they look tough and all with the fancy cart and radio but in reality they have no powers of arrest. They need to have real and very perceived power - follow their instructions or find yourself booted with no refund and no return.

Few courses offer a try out on the range. Imagine you get all warmed up and then you go and demonstrate your skills in front of a range marshal who then gives you a scorecard that shows the color tee marker you have been approved to play. Hit some great drives, mid irons, short irons, and chips and you can play from the tips. Slice it all over the place, hit some worm burners, or swing and miss and your card is going to indicate the very front "kiddy tees".

Finally few courses offer classes in true etiquette. And few courses also care enough to openly advertise a strict policy on pace of play.

There are a lot of threads on this. Most don't hit on the real issue. People simply are never as good as they think they are.

[Sean2]

[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1403549597' post='9559587']
[quote name='mikes919' timestamp='1403549468' post='9559573']
The problem isn't that the average golfer only hits the ball 200 yards. It's how he gets it there.

First he pulls out his brand new SLDR and a brush tee, and hits a massive 80 yard banana slice that ends up three fairways over. Then after waiting for the guys on the next fairway to play through, he spends 5 minutes searching for his Pinnacle. He finally decides to stop looking and take a drop, just into the rough. Then he tops it twice before foot-wedging it back onto the fairway, 200 yards from the tee. Then he'll wait for the group in front of him to get at least 350 yards out, before deciding which club to hit.

Moving up a teebox isn't going to speed up this guy. And all it takes is one or two on a course to slow the whole place down.
[/quote]

Short, succinct, and 100% correct. Just don't say it in front of a Tee It Forward guy or he'll clock you over the head with a black tee marker that he stole from his course in the middle of the night.
[/quote]

Hey CL, who peed in your Wheaties? Why so defensive? No one said YOU have to move up? Reading your posts one would think there is a plethora of Tee if Forward police at every tee box across the United States, making sure everyone play from 5400 yards.

[DavePelz4]

Well that's gonna leave a mark.

[Pigems]

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403569354' post='9562051']
Sean, great post. (as usual)

When I have a new Paramedic training with me I always tell them the same bad news. Noone is ever as good as they think they are. In any aspect of their lives.
My goal is to get them to have a realistic approach to the way I teach - minimum intervention for maximum effects. The more you do, the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. And you are probably spending too much time on scene doing it.

To your point most golfers believe that they are better than they really are. So taking on 6600 for the average Joe seems quite natural. Sadly they don't seem to realize that their "280 drive" was actually more like 200 carry and about 15 of roll for a total under 220. And this was their long drive.

But...

The courses are largely to blame.

Few of them post signs on the first tee indicating which tee you should play if your "normal score" (since so many players have no handicap) is such and such number. Imagine pulling up to the first tee and stopping at the tips. [b]There is a sign "This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult [/b]and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." And as you move to the other tees each one is well marked telling players where they should play.

Few courses truly empower their Marshals. They are nothing more than roving mall cops. Sure, they look tough and all with the fancy cart and radio but in reality they have no powers of arrest. They need to have real and very perceived power - follow their instructions or find yourself booted with no refund and no return.

Few courses offer a try out on the range. Imagine you get all warmed up and then you go and demonstrate your skills in front of a range marshal who then gives you a scorecard that shows the color tee marker you have been approved to play. Hit some great drives, mid irons, short irons, and chips and you can play from the tips. Slice it all over the place, hit some worm burners, or swing and miss and your card is going to indicate the very front "kiddy tees".

Finally few courses offer classes in true etiquette. And few courses also care enough to openly advertise a strict policy on pace of play.

There are a lot of threads on this. Most don't hit on the real issue. People simply are never as good as they think they are.
[/quote]

Exactly like they do on ski hills, a beginner skier wouldn't go down the Double Black Diamond run

[Startzel]

[quote name='highergr0und' timestamp='1403543180' post='9558661']
I think the problem here is that skill and distance are not directly related. Being long should make the game easier, but that's often not the case.

I can also pretty much guarantee that pros playing for the same money and rankings would jump at the chance to tee it forward. They want to score and are less concerned with the vanity of handicaps and thinking that they played a course at its hardest.
[/quote]

And I have no experience with people playing the wrong tees for this very reason. Everyone I know tries to play as far forward to make it easier. All the mens leagues play from the whites and not the tips. All the seniors still long enough to play from the whites jump to play from the senior tees to go low.

[diehllane]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1403569288' post='9562041']
Here's a local course that is a good test @ 6253 from the White tees (middle). When I get to the 446 par 4 it takes two great hits by me to reach the green. Although one time I hit over the green with my 5 wood approach shot. My landing distance is usually at about the 200 yard marker. One 400 yard hole per 9 is plenty enough.
[/quote]
I actually really like how this scorecard suggests which tees to play based on the handicap...including showing which women should be playing the white and blues. That helps to prevent any specific set from being the "women's" tees.
If only all scorecards went to this system...new golfers would learn to play the correct tees for their swing, rather than their gender.

[Medic]

[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1403570117' post='9562153']

Exactly like they do on ski hills, a beginner skier wouldn't go down the Double Black Diamond run
[/quote]

Perfect post Pig. But they might go down the DBD. Once. And frankly it gives me job security knowing that there are some who would dare.

But seriously, I think I might be onto something with the range marshal idea. Things that make you say/think "Hmmmmmmm......."

[diehllane]

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403569354' post='9562051']
Sean, great post. (as usual)

When I have a new Paramedic training with me I always tell them the same bad news. Noone is ever as good as they think they are. In any aspect of their lives.
My goal is to get them to have a realistic approach to the way I teach - minimum intervention for maximum effects. The more you do, the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. And you are probably spending too much time on scene doing it.

To your point most golfers believe that they are better than they really are. So taking on 6600 for the average Joe seems quite natural. Sadly they don't seem to realize that their "280 drive" was actually more like 200 carry and about 15 of roll for a total under 220. And this was their long drive.

But...

The courses are largely to blame.

Few of them post signs on the first tee indicating which tee you should play if your "normal score" (since so many players have no handicap) is such and such number. Imagine pulling up to the first tee and stopping at the tips. There is a sign "This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." And as you move to the other tees each one is well marked telling players where they should play.

Few courses truly empower their Marshals. They are nothing more than roving mall cops. Sure, they look tough and all with the fancy cart and radio but in reality they have no powers of arrest. They need to have real and very perceived power - follow their instructions or find yourself booted with no refund and no return.

Few courses offer a try out on the range. Imagine you get all warmed up and then you go and demonstrate your skills in front of a range marshal who then gives you a scorecard that shows the color tee marker you have been approved to play. Hit some great drives, mid irons, short irons, and chips and you can play from the tips. Slice it all over the place, hit some worm burners, or swing and miss and your card is going to indicate the very front "kiddy tees".

Finally few courses offer classes in true etiquette. And few courses also care enough to openly advertise a strict policy on pace of play.

There are a lot of threads on this. Most don't hit on the real issue. People simply are never as good as they think they are.
[/quote]

I would hope the sign at the first tee tips would include this one little prepositional phrase: [color=#282828]"This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76 [b]for 18 holes[/b]; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." [/color]

[Medic]

[quote name='diehllane' timestamp='1403570464' post='9562203']

I would hope the sign at the first tee tips would include this one little prepositional phrase: [color=#282828]"This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76 [b]for 18 holes[/b]; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." [/color]
[/quote]

Perfect!

I left out a really important part!!!

[Pigems]

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403570318' post='9562177']
[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1403570117' post='9562153']
Exactly like they do on ski hills, a beginner skier wouldn't go down the Double Black Diamond run
[/quote]

Perfect post Pig. But they might go down the DBD. Once. And frankly it gives me job security knowing that there are some who would dare.

But seriously, I think I might be onto something with the range marshal idea. Things that make you say/think "Hmmmmmmm......."
[/quote]

I used to be that guy, DBD first time skiing - check,
attempt to do a backflip first time on snow blades - check,
get bear mased while walking home one night - check,
nail two of your fingers together with an air spiker - check,
have a full bundle of shingles fall off a roof and land on your ankle - check,
walk down a flight of stairs that hasnt been built yet - check
slice the inside of your thigh 8" with your own hockey skate and keep playing - check, and I could go on.

Im no longer a shoot first and ask questions later type anymore needless to say

On the marshall/tryout to see what tees hou play idea, the hottest night clubs are the ones that are the hardest to get into. So may e the hottest course would be the one that wont let you play the tips, or play at all because you didnt make the cut

[Sean2]

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403569354' post='9562051']
Sean, great post. (as usual)

When I have a new Paramedic training with me I always tell them the same bad news. Noone is ever as good as they think they are. In any aspect of their lives.
My goal is to get them to have a realistic approach to the way I teach - minimum intervention for maximum effects. The more you do, the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. And you are probably spending too much time on scene doing it.

To your point most golfers believe that they are better than they really are. So taking on 6600 for the average Joe seems quite natural. Sadly they don't seem to realize that their "280 drive" was actually more like 200 carry and about 15 of roll for a total under 220. And this was their long drive.

But...

The courses are largely to blame.

Few of them post signs on the first tee indicating which tee you should play if your "normal score" (since so many players have no handicap) is such and such number. Imagine pulling up to the first tee and stopping at the tips. There is a sign "This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." And as you move to the other tees each one is well marked telling players where they should play.

Few courses truly empower their Marshals. They are nothing more than roving mall cops. Sure, they look tough and all with the fancy cart and radio but in reality they have no powers of arrest. They need to have real and very perceived power - follow their instructions or find yourself booted with no refund and no return.

Few courses offer a try out on the range. Imagine you get all warmed up and then you go and demonstrate your skills in front of a range marshal who then gives you a scorecard that shows the color tee marker you have been approved to play. Hit some great drives, mid irons, short irons, and chips and you can play from the tips. Slice it all over the place, hit some worm burners, or swing and miss and your card is going to indicate the very front "kiddy tees".

Finally few courses offer classes in true etiquette. And few courses also care enough to openly advertise a strict policy on pace of play.

There are a lot of threads on this. Most don't hit on the real issue. People simply are never as good as they think they are.
[/quote]

I, on the other hand, think I am worse than I probably really am. (I read too much Dostoyevsky...he will do that too you).

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do...as some seem to suggest. However, between people's egos and fear of what others will think, they do make the game more difficult.

For example, last year I went to this course new to me. They had five sets of tee boxes, including senior tees. Being a senior I figured, why not. I get to the first tee and there are three other guys all around my age. Two are together, and the other is a soloist like me.

The twosome ask, "What tees are you playing?" And I say the senior tees. "We always play the blue tees," one of the guys responds in a stentorian voice. They look at the other guy and ask him the same thing. You can see he is really conflicted. He's looking back and forth and finally asks me if I am really going to play the senior tees. I say that I am. Finally, he decides to join me.

The "blues brothers" shot in the mid-90's and if they were having fun they certainly had a weird way of showing it. The other guy who joined me was so excited. He couldn't shut up about shooting his lowest score ever, finally reaching this and that par 4 in regulation, hitting an iron on three of the par threes, and having the most fun playing golf than he can remember. He said he always played the blues before. He thanked me profusely for having the "courage" to play the senior tees (his word, not mine).

[Startzel]

[quote name='diehllane' timestamp='1403570464' post='9562203']I would hope the sign at the first tee tips would include this one little prepositional phrase: [color=#282828]"This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76 [b]for 18 holes[/b]; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." [/color]
[/quote]

</p>Would the sign also display score limits for types of clubs? If you're not shooting a 76 you are required to play GI irons? If you don't hit your 9 iron farther than 130 you must play modern lofts instead of traditional irons?

[Medic]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403571133' post='9562295']
He thanked me profusely for having the "courage" to play the senior tees (his word, not mine).
[/quote]

The "Range Marshal" would also be taking note of distances off the drive. Hit it straight - great. But that still would not net you a gold card. (Gold = tips) Now this Range Marshal would need to know the distances on the range. And he would call out, "Ok, this time I want you to hit to the green flag on the left. It is 142 yards." Sort of like a driving test (Division of Motor Vehicles comparison)

Once you are issued a tee color he radios into the pro shop and at the end of your round you pick up your course ID card in your tee color. "Range Marshal to pro shop. Player Sean blue card. Player Jim blue card. Over"

Then, when you come back to the same course you simply show your tee card and a photo ID and you don't have to go through the Range Marshal again.

[diehllane]

[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403571554' post='9562375']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403571133' post='9562295']
He thanked me profusely for having the "courage" to play the senior tees (his word, not mine).
[/quote]

The "Range Marshal" would also be taking note of distances off the drive. Hit it straight - great. But that still would not net you a gold card. (Gold = tips) Now this Range Marshal would need to know the distances on the range. And he would call out, "Ok, this time I want you to hit to the green flag on the left. It is 142 yards." Sort of like a driving test (Division of Motor Vehicles comparison)

Once you are issued a tee color he radios into the pro shop and at the end of your round you pick up your course ID card in your tee color. "Range Marshal to pro shop. Player Sean blue card. Player Jim blue card. Over"

Then, when you come back to the same course you simply show your tee card and a photo ID and you don't have to go through the Range Marshal again.
[/quote]
This reminds me of using the pool at summer camp when I was in Boy Scouts...
If you wanted that Blue band, you had to dive in the deep end, swim down to the other end and back.
For a Green, you had to at least jump in and swim. This meant you had to get permission to head to the deep end and prove yourself to the lifeguard when you were swimming.
For an Orange, you just had to know where the pool was.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1403571133' post='9562295']
[quote name='Medic' timestamp='1403569354' post='9562051']
Sean, great post. (as usual)

When I have a new Paramedic training with me I always tell them the same bad news. Noone is ever as good as they think they are. In any aspect of their lives.
My goal is to get them to have a realistic approach to the way I teach - minimum intervention for maximum effects. The more you do, the more likely it is that something is going to go wrong. And you are probably spending too much time on scene doing it.

To your point most golfers believe that they are better than they really are. So taking on 6600 for the average Joe seems quite natural. Sadly they don't seem to realize that their "280 drive" was actually more like 200 carry and about 15 of roll for a total under 220. And this was their long drive.

But...

The courses are largely to blame.

Few of them post signs on the first tee indicating which tee you should play if your "normal score" (since so many players have no handicap) is such and such number. Imagine pulling up to the first tee and stopping at the tips. There is a sign "This tee is meant for golfers whose normally score 72 to 76; golfers who score more than this will find this tee extremely difficult and may lead to a slow pace of play with associated penalties as per course policy." And as you move to the other tees each one is well marked telling players where they should play.

Few courses truly empower their Marshals. They are nothing more than roving mall cops. Sure, they look tough and all with the fancy cart and radio but in reality they have no powers of arrest. They need to have real and very perceived power - follow their instructions or find yourself booted with no refund and no return.

Few courses offer a try out on the range. Imagine you get all warmed up and then you go and demonstrate your skills in front of a range marshal who then gives you a scorecard that shows the color tee marker you have been approved to play. Hit some great drives, mid irons, short irons, and chips and you can play from the tips. Slice it all over the place, hit some worm burners, or swing and miss and your card is going to indicate the very front "kiddy tees".

Finally few courses offer classes in true etiquette. And few courses also care enough to openly advertise a strict policy on pace of play.

There are a lot of threads on this. Most don't hit on the real issue. People simply are never as good as they think they are.
[/quote]

I, on the other hand, think I am worse than I probably really am. (I read too much Dostoyevsky...he will do that too you).

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do...as some seem to suggest. However, between people's egos and fear of what others will think, they do make the game more difficult.

For example, last year I went to this course new to me. They had five sets of tee boxes, including senior tees. Being a senior I figured, why not. I get to the first tee and there are three other guys all around my age. Two are together, and the other is a soloist like me.

The twosome ask, "What tees are you playing?" And I say the senior tees. "We always play the blue tees," one of the guys responds in a stentorian voice. They look at the other guy and ask him the same thing. You can see he is really conflicted. He's looking back and forth and finally asks me if I am really going to play the senior tees. I say that I am. Finally, he decides to join me.

The "blues brothers" shot in the mid-90's and if they were having fun they certainly had a weird way of showing it. The other guy who joined me was so excited. He couldn't shut up about shooting his lowest score ever, finally reaching this and that par 4 in regulation, hitting an iron on three of the par threes, and having the most fun playing golf than he can remember. He said he always played the blues before. He thanked me profusely for having the "courage" to play the senior tees (his word, not mine).
[/quote]

What if the Blues Brothers, with the stentorian voices, had fun and you just didn't judge them correctly? What if they were happy to shoot what they did? Why does score have to equal happiness?

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1403568176' post='9561943']
[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1403567994' post='9561925']
sorry guys I couldn't resist....on a serious note though my mind would want to hit it...if it were 8 iron or less I could pick it off 99 out of 100 ...the 100th time id go to the ER... I tell people im self taught at everything..they think that's an admirable trait..it really just means I hurt myself and or screw up a lot..while everyone else listens to the good advice of others...
[/quote]


In most cases the only time ill move my ball is if I think I might damage a club, I heal for free, My clubs dont
[/quote]

My thoughts are a 180 from that. I can order a new club, but recovering from a wrist injury might ruin my season. Or worse.

[DavePelz4]

There is a certain irony in saying someone should be able to play whatever clubs they choose but can't play whatever tees they choose.