The Sandbagging Madness has to stop...

[Argonne69]

Rosebud

 

What a lovely and typical Italian name for a restaurant :taunt:

 

The original Rosebud on Taylor Street in Little Italy is still open for business. Dang, I now have a craving for baked ziti and grilled calamari.

 

[PJ72]

[quote name='wadesworld' timestamp='1409680205' post='10050619']
One of the big problems with the handicap system is that so few people know the rules of handicaps, or misunderstand them, and can then either unintentionally sandbag, or intentionally.

For example, many people believe that if you break a single rule of golf, the round cannot count for handicap purposes. So if the person doesn't want the round to count, he simply picks up a gimme putt, and now not only does he feel justified in not turning the round in, but in fact, feels like he's the flag bearer for integrity because he didn't turn in a round where a rule was broken (never mind the fact he didn't penalize himself).

Similarly, most people believe if you don't finish a round, you can't turn in a score.

As others have said, it's not an easy problem to solve in the US because of the large number of people who play only on public courses. Although one has to be a member of a "club" (traditional, local or even online) to establish a handicap, the reality is, in anything other than a country-club environment, you're not likely to get called out by the handicap chairman.

So it falls on tournament directors to have some backbone and disqualify obvious cheaters. In a single-round event, it's hard to DQ someone who shots [b]10 or even 15 shots below their normal[/b]. As a 15-handicap I once shot a legit 79 (including a hole-in-one). I've shot a number of 81's, 82's and 83's. But I also have the 94's, 98's and 100's which keep me hovering around 15. However, in a multi-round event, multiple days of a high-handicapper shooting in the 70's or even low-80's gross should likely be grounds for immediate disqualification.
[/quote]

Shooting 10 shots below handicap is extremely rare. That's a net 62 or 46 points stableford.

Shooting 15 shots below is just unbelievable - and it should be treated as that. That's a nett 57 or 51 points!

A 16-18 handicapper shooting 10-12 over is reasonable because they hit the ball decent but lack consistency. The 24-28 handicapper shooting 10 -12 over is impossible really because they don't put the ball near the green in regulation.


The best scores at my club over the past 3 years have been 46 points (18 hcp played to 8) and a nett 64 (me with 71 playing off 7!).

[DH48]

What is sad is that someone playing the round of their life finds himself having to defend his actions.

Take me for instance. Middle of last year I was a 14 index. In January I quit smoking and my swing went to hell. I got as high as a 22 index back in June (with an R by the way because of a mid 80s round in a tournament last summer). Thinks are turning around and I'm working my way back down (19) currently. Over the weekend I shot a 43 on the first 9, on that 9 I three putted 3 times and left a birdy putt on the lip. That round was good by my standards and with a hot putter could have been sub 40--for a 19 index.

It gets even worse when people like me travel or just play 9 hole matches. I've shot one under for 9 when I was 17 index, blew up on the back and wound up with an 82 so 10 over on the back. My home course is very narrow with lots of hazards and out of bounds and my biggest problem is off the tee. I've played Pinehurst #2 and Torrey Pines a number of times and never been over 88 on either because they have so much more room off the tee (I can play from rough it is the penalty strokes that kill me) and I get better the closer I get to the hole.

I say this to say that not everyone you run into who shoots a good nine or plays well in a tourney is a sandbagger. Unfortunately, we all assume that they are.

Now obviously guys shooting well below two days in a row are clearly cheaters. What we need to do is a better job of peer review. The problem is at most clubs no one wants to be the bad guy. But that just needs to happen.

[larrybud]

All you have to do is look at the OPs posting of this guy's scoring history to see what's going on. Except for the two T scores he just posted, his differential range is from 20.1 to 27. Tell me another 20 handicapper who is THAT consistent? Ridiculous. Hell, show me a 2 handicapper who is that consistent. They're completely fake scores, or he posted his high ones, and doubled up on them any time he shot a low score, so that he still had a score posted for when he played.

Internet postings have completely eliminated any kind of "peer review", and I really don't think that ever existed except in the most exclusive country clubs, where everybody knows everyone else.

10 years ago I played in Michigan Publinx NET tournaments. I was an 8 at the time. Same 4-5 guys were always at the top. I would look up their GAM handicap, and they wouldn't post their good T scores. I informed the committee, never got a response, so I quit.

Talk with your dollars. Inform the committee, and if they don't do anything, quit.

[Imp]

Friend of mine is a 12 index, and shot 74 on Sunday. He was on fire and that bested his best round ever on this course by about 4 strokes.

--kC

[xxjonesyxx]

What I don't understand about the American system (Well one of the many things I don't, if I'm honest) Is the poster above that said I was a 14 in January, and was a 22 in in June. (I understand the calculations etc that make that happen) In Congu, the MOST you can go out for any tournament round is 0.1 shot. Doesn't matter if u are a 6 capper that shoots 100, or a 6 that shoots 82, you will only go out 0.1 shots. This means that it takes a long time to go out in your handicap: for example if you played 20 tournament rounds over the year and played badly in every one, you will only go out two shots.
I believe this is much more satisfactory, your hcp shouldn't be based upon you current form or how you have been playing for the last few months or whatever, it should be based on your career, If you are badly out of form, and playing poor and want to compete and get back to your best, do something about, it take lessons, put the practice in. Don't just think I'm still competitive as I'm getting a load more shots back now.
If through getting older your game is slowly getting a little worse, your handicap will follow that trend but slowly, as it should do, also in cases of ill health etc, It is possible to get an adjustment to reflect that in the annual review, but that would be a very rare scenario.

Neil

[Marrrk]

I've always wondered why the USGA handicapping system doesn't just issue two handicaps, a regular and a tournament. If you're going to play in tournaments, you have to use your tourney cap, and it's based only on your tourney rounds. (For your first tournament, maybe you just get 75-80% of your regular, then it's all tourney rounds after that.)

And it shouldn't be that hard to keep people from entering inflated, fake tournament rounds. They should have to indicate the tournament they played in and similarly, the tournaments should have to inform the USGA of their existence to be eligible.

Am I missing something?

[dan360]

If I could cover my life's expenses just flying around the country entering club tourneys and breaking sandbagger's clubs in two, I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat.

I live relatively within my means for those interested in a contract.

[larrybud]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1410039165' post='10076467']
I've always wondered why the USGA handicapping system doesn't just issue two handicaps, a regular and a tournament. If you're going to play in tournaments, you have to use your tourney cap, and it's based only on your tourney rounds. (For your first tournament, maybe you just get 75-80% of your regular, then it's all tourney rounds after that.)

And it shouldn't be that hard to keep people from entering inflated, fake tournament rounds. They should have to indicate the tournament they played in and similarly, the tournaments should have to inform the USGA of their existence to be eligible.

Am I missing something?
[/quote]

Yes, most people don't play enough tournament rounds to establish a handicap. I mean, I probably play 7 T rounds a year, and that's probably on the very high end for most amateurs with regular jobs. My handicap changes way faster than the system can keep up. After 20 T rounds, I'd have a handicap in which my half my scores were 1.5 years old!

[Marrrk]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1410094315' post='10078813'][quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1410039165' post='10076467']
I've always wondered why the USGA handicapping system doesn't just issue two handicaps, a regular and a tournament. If you're going to play in tournaments, you have to use your tourney cap, and it's based only on your tourney rounds. (For your first tournament, maybe you just get 75-80% of your regular, then it's all tourney rounds after that.)

And it shouldn't be that hard to keep people from entering inflated, fake tournament rounds. They should have to indicate the tournament they played in and similarly, the tournaments should have to inform the USGA of their existence to be eligible.

Am I missing something?
[/quote]

Yes, most people don't play enough tournament rounds to establish a handicap. I mean, I probably play 7 T rounds a year, and that's probably on the very high end for most amateurs with regular jobs. My handicap changes way faster than the system can keep up. After 20 T rounds, I'd have a handicap in which my half my scores were 1.5 years old![/quote]

I'm sympathetic to that. But if the goal is to cut down on sandbagging, then a hybrid of USGA/CONGU seems to be the best bet. It's not perfect, but the nature of handicapping in general ensures nothing will be perfect.

Someone mentioned earlier that the USGA system allows for too much fluctuation, and I agree. So in your example, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a tourney handicap composed of mostly scores from over a year ago. Far preferable to me than easier sandbagging. Of course, others may disagree.

[larrybud]

So how would you give someone a handicap in their first 5 tournament rounds?

[Marrrk]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1410128435' post='10080891']
So how would you give someone a handicap in their first 5 tournament rounds?
[/quote]

I'm not sure. How is it done with CONGU? Maybe 75% of your regular handicap to start, and then the special new computation begins after you have 3 tourney rounds. Perhaps the T cap is tied into the regular cap, and if the deviation between the two is too extreme, the T cap is rendered invalid. Whatever it is, the important thing is that the system spits out a special tournament cap that is harder to sandbag.

But I'm really just spitballing. I don't like the idea of un-flighted net tournaments at all. So once you combine this special cap idea with flighted-only events, you can solve a lot of problems.

[Imp]

I'm an 11.7 index, course HC is 13. I shot a 78 yesterday. Lowest round for me ever. (+7 front including a ball OB and one in a hazard, even par back.) On the back, I hit 8 of the 9 fairways (short on a 210 par 3) and 7 GIR. It's the best, most consistant round I'd ever played and the guys were happy for me to see me finally do it.

Lowest I ever got on this course is 84, and it's my home course.

--kC

[deadsolid...shank]

I like the idea of a tournament handicap, but it some areas it's just not feasible.

In our four month tournament season, there is ONE stroke play tournament. All the state tourneys are at least a five or six hour drive (we host the state am abut once every 15 years). Could probably go into the Denver area and find some, but that is still three and half hours of driving time.

I don't know if other areas are experiencing this type of situation or not. We are in a fairly rural, ag based setting where the average age of golfers is creeping towards (or there already) retirement. Most of these players don't want to play their own ball, team formats are the dominant choice.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1410179549' post='10083237']
I'm an 11.7 index, course HC is 13. I shot a 78 yesterday. Lowest round for me ever. (+7 front including a ball OB and one in a hazard, even par back.) On the back, I hit 8 of the 9 fairways (short on a 210 par 3) and 7 GIR. It's the best, most consistant round I'd ever played and the guys were happy for me to see me finally do it.

Lowest I ever got on this course is 84, and it's my home course.

--kC
[/quote]

Very nice round...congrats!

[DavePelz4]

Just for entertainment purposes, I went back to see how Mr. SB has played since shooting hit 80/81 rounds. Apparently his game has slipped back to his pre-tournament form. How sad.

Scoring Record Handicap History
MM/YY Score Type Rating Slope Diff
9/14 93 H 71.1 129 19.2
9/14 93 H 71.1 129 19.2
8/14 80 T 68.6 120 10.7
8/14 81 T 68.3 122 11.8

[wadesworld]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1410128435' post='10080891']
So how would you give someone a handicap in their first 5 tournament rounds?
[/quote]

Simple solution. They get a handicap of 0.

Gives them no chance to win unless they're already a near-scratch player, but hey - if you want a tourney handicap, you have to pay your dues by playing those 5 tourneys first.

[Argonne69]

[quote name='wadesworld' timestamp='1410378475' post='10096937']
[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1410128435' post='10080891']
So how would you give someone a handicap in their first 5 tournament rounds?
[/quote]

Simple solution. They get a handicap of 0.

Gives them no chance to win unless they're already a near-scratch player, but hey - if you want a tourney handicap, you have to pay your dues by playing those 5 tourneys first.
[/quote]

Seems a bit harsh, as it would discourage the vast majority of players from ever playing their first tournament, nevermind 5. Instead, what if they were given the same handicap as the lowest player in the field? Basically, they would be starting out at the top of the heap.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1410292454' post='10091053']
Just for entertainment purposes, I went back to see how Mr. SB has played since shooting hit 80/81 rounds. Apparently his game has slipped back to his pre-tournament form. How sad.

Scoring Record Handicap History
MM/YY Score Type Rating Slope Diff
9/14 93 H 71.1 129 19.2
9/14 93 H 71.1 129 19.2
8/14 80 T 68.6 120 10.7
8/14 81 T 68.3 122 11.8
[/quote]

I'm curious - what has the (I assume) inevitable exceptional T score reduction done to his index?

dave

[Medic]

I play in two leagues. One stroke play and one match. One guy got called out when, as a 22 cap, he shot an 81 during a tourney. He has since started posting lower scores and his cap has dropped by about 50% in two months.

In the other league everyone has a league handicap. All players start with a 12 and are adjusted with each passing tourney. Since everyone in that league has been around for literally years all of the caps are now legit - whatever they shot in the tournies over the years (one tourney per month) is their cap.

[Matt97GT]

I had the privilege of being invited to a member-guest tournament. My partner and I were paired up with the team that won it all. Both of them were 13 handicaps "officially" but playing at 10 for the tournament adjustment. They shot gross scores of 76 and 67 (!!!!). The guy had 6 birdies and was bogey free until he 3 putted on 17. That's a net 57. My partner and I just laughed and he said "well, that's the best 10 capper you'll ever see."

Truly remarkable to watch though.

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1410733223' post='10116815']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1410292454' post='10091053']
Just for entertainment purposes, I went back to see how Mr. SB has played since shooting hit 80/81 rounds. Apparently his game has slipped back to his pre-tournament form. How sad.

Scoring Record Handicap History
MM/YY Score Type Rating Slope Diff
9/14 93 H 71.1 129 19.2
9/14 93 H 71.1 129 19.2
8/14 80 T 68.6 120 10.7
8/14 81 T 68.3 122 11.8
[/quote]

I'm curious - what has the (I assume) inevitable exceptional T score reduction done to his index?

dave
[/quote]

Hi Dave...

His index has dropped from a 19.1 to a 15.9.

[mark m]

[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1410799270' post='10120603']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1410733223' post='10116815']
[quote name='DavePelz4' timestamp='1410292454' post='10091053']
Just for entertainment purposes, I went back to see how Mr. SB has played since shooting hit 80/81 rounds. Apparently his game has slipped back to his pre-tournament form. How sad.

Scoring Record Handicap History
MM/YY Score Type Rating Slope Diff
9/14 93 H 71.1 129 19.2
9/14 93 H 71.1 129 19.2
8/14 80 T 68.6 120 10.7
8/14 81 T 68.3 122 11.8
[/quote]

I'm curious - what has the (I assume) inevitable exceptional T score reduction done to his index?

dave
[/quote]

Hi Dave...

His index has dropped from a 19.1 to a 15.9.
[/quote]

Daves: he is 15.9R

He would be 16.9 except for being reduced one stroke for exceptional tournament performance. The reason for just a 1 stroke reduction is he has 7 'T' scores in his record.

I would like to ask a hypothetical question. Assume he does the same thing going forward into next season (as he did last year) and he shoots non-tournament rounds with differentials between 19 - 26 and any new tournament scores are in the same range. Let's say his HI is around 17-18. The handicap committee doesn't do anything about his situation. He enters the tournament. You are on the tournament committee for this same tournament next August.

[b]Question for all here: What do you do? [/b]

You want to protect the field. Recall that he was a 19.1 which means he would have received 20 strokes in the recent tournament. They cut his handicap to 17 for this tournament - probably by using an average of his 2 good scores from the same tournament in 2013 (17.3 & 14.5) - and he still won. The differentials from those 2 rounds this year are 10.7 & 11.8. They are by far the best scores in his record. How low can he go? What is his potential?

There are basically 3 choices:

1. You do nothing. You go with his handicap at the time.
2. You cut him like the tournament committee did this year. Using the same basic method, you would give him something like 11-13 course handicap for this tournament (same courses, same tees).
3. You do something different.

Just food for thought. It's no fun having to deal with this stuff. The best situation would be for the HC to have a meeting with this player. Ask about the other 3 tournaments he played in. Were they individual formats or team events? What were the prizes? And ask about his non-tournament rounds and if he tries hard all the time? Find out if he posts all his scores. Etc. It needs to happen or participation will continue to go south.

[DavePelz4]

Ironically, the exact same situation happened last year with the person who won. He played off a 14, hadn't posted anything lower than 85 up to that point and shot -24 net to blow away the field. After the tournament, his index was adjusted down to a 12 or 12 something. After posting another low tournament round it was adjusted down again to 11.6. In this year's tournament he played off 10.3 and shot rounds of 79-74 and finished at -13 in a tie for third.

It does appear that he's posted some more scores including several in the 70's.

These tournaments pay out between $3-$500 depending on the size of the field.

I don't expect that they are making any changes and the size of the field will continue to dwindle. At that point maybe they'll start to look more closely or do something about it.

The World AM uses this as their approach to sandbagging. More courses need to consider this approach.

[color=#666666]The Handicap Committee will aggressively monitor scores for golf handicap inaccuracies. The following is an overview of the steps taken to ensure an equitable stroke tournament. Past players have gone through our score history program comparing a player’s incoming index with past performances. New players have gone through a rigorous screening process analyzing their incoming index. During the tournament, scores are also adjusted when exceptional rounds are posted. Players with a handicap adjustment during the event are noted by a “ADJ” next to their name on the flight score sheets. If a player reaches a specified threshold for exceptional play, the committee will research that player, including past tournament scores, handicap indexes and rankings. At the end of this review, a decision is made whether or not to disqualify the competitor. A player may be disqualified without being adjusted as well. All tournament committee decisions are final. - See more at: http://www.worldamgolf.com/fair-handicaps/handicap-monitoring/#sthash.p8Sz43ej.dpuf[/color]

[Bingo1976]

[quote name='wadesworld' timestamp='1410378475' post='10096937']
[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1410128435' post='10080891']
So how would you give someone a handicap in their first 5 tournament rounds?
[/quote]

Simple solution. They get a handicap of 0.

Gives them no chance to win unless they're already a near-scratch player, but hey - if you want a tourney handicap, you have to pay your dues by playing those 5 tourneys first.
[/quote]

Or they can only play if they have 5 rounds submitted under the watch of a club member who is not otherwise known to them.

[TRT]

I was on a handicap committee at a club for more than ten years, and have seen several automatic reductions in index for exceptional tournament play. Seeing an index with an "R" always makes me smile, especially if it was imposed because of a career weekend in something like the 'couples classic'. I really, really do not like out of town guests playing under their handicaps on a tough course that they have never before played, and always followed up that sort of performance with a call to their home course.

Mr. Nick also had an "R" last summer, presumable from play in the same tournament. Doesn't his club have an active handicap committee?

Our club discussed using Dean Knuth's "Tournament Point System" method of further index reductions for repeated winners of large field net events, but eventually decided that it would be too uncomfortable...

[DavePelz4]

[quote name='TRT' timestamp='1413852464' post='10322531']
I was on a handicap committee at a club for more than ten years, and have seen several automatic reductions in index for exceptional tournament play. Seeing an index with an "R" always makes me smile, especially if it was imposed because of a career weekend in something like the 'couples classic'. I really, really do not like out of town guests playing under their handicaps on a tough course that they have never before played, and always followed up that sort of performance with a call to their home course.

Mr. Nick also had an "R" last summer, presumable from play in the same tournament. Doesn't his club have an active handicap committee?

Our club discussed using Dean Knuth's "Tournament Point System" method of further index reductions for repeated winners of large field net events, but eventually decided that it would be too uncomfortable...
[/quote]

His index is at park district course so the handicap committee is rather nonexistent.

[jt78129]

Sandbagging has put me right off my brief experiment with playing tournaments.
Only been playing a couple of years and I joined a men's club at a local muni course.
Played a few tournaments and saw the same members winning the high handicap flight I was in. Thought that was weird.
Played with some members on non tournament days and their disdain for the club, the handicap committee and the members was shocking.
Looking at the previous results basically one 25+ handicapper has won about 40% of the net tournaments over the past 3, 4 years. It is widely acknowledged that he is a sandbagger but he is the club captain, on the handicap committee, in charge of tournament organizing and basically key to the club continuing. Hence not being called on it in any serious way.
The club used to be really popular; waiting list to get in, waiting lists to get into tournaments and a vibrant group. Now it is desperate for members and can't fill the tee sheets for tournaments.
Aging members retiring and other factors play a part but I'm sure this guy is a huge factor in people just drifting away from the club. He is why I won't be back.
It is actually quite sad as the days of this 80 year old men's club seem numbered.

[MountainKing]

i used to work at Naperbrook and I can tell you the Director of Golf out there/Springbrook could give two craps about these kind of problems, all he cares about is collecting money. Sandbagging has always been a problem in this event and the city tournament as well but as long as people pay they turn a blind eye to it. He was horrible to work for, it's the Provow way or the highway.

[DavePelz4]

Tim HATES me. He will not even make eye contact because I posed him a hypothetical rules question after a Sr Tourney infraction involving a guy from the Weds PM pro am skins game. Turned out to be a friend of his and he did nothing. He has avoided me since that.