3W vs Driver off the tee

[deadsolid...shank]

My driver has been a disaster the past month or so so Ieft it at home yesterday and put in a '16 M1 and cranked it down to 13.5*. Golf is a much easier game when playing from the fairway. The slight distance loss really only hurt me on a couple holes. I obviously had longer approach shots but my irons are my strength.

 

Or so you believe!

[tsecor]

My driver has been a disaster the past month or so so Ieft it at home yesterday and put in a '16 M1 and cranked it down to 13.5*. Golf is a much easier game when playing from the fairway. The slight distance loss really only hurt me on a couple holes. I obviously had longer approach shots but my irons are my strength.

Justin Thomas lost the tour championship on 18 hitting from the rough.....guess the theory didn't work on 18 when it counted

[Nykt1000]

I haven't read all 38 pages but it's interesting that a lot of the conversation revolves around fairway vs rough. At a lot of the courses the rough isn't that bad and is easily playable for most ameturs like myself. I've chopped down my driver to 44" but I still only use my 3wood of the tee. I may get slightly less distance but its easier to control. It comes down to managing my worst shots. Fairway vs rough is not really a big deal. The big issue is rough vs the sticks. In the rough you can play for birdie/par/bogey. When you are near the trees and need to bunt it out because trees are in the way, I am playing for a minimum bogey.

 

If I use a 350m par 4 for example. 3 wood may put me 140m out in the rough but8 at least have a chance to hit the green with a 8iron and make a par. If I'm in the trees and need to bunt out diagonally, my 3rd shot may be 80-120m out. How many times will you get up and down from there.

[tsecor]

# 18 was a possible eagle hole for Thomas but he was buried in the rough and even though he hit the 2nd shot hard, it was well short and he was not accurate with his layup. He is one of the best course managers in the game, but this example clearly shows you what NOT to do...if he had just played for birdie, he would have gone to extra holes but the rough killed him on 2 of his shots. The winner played from the fairway, got bird and walked away with the title.

[lenman73]

What did the winner hit off the tee ?

[tsecor]

don't know. Thomas hit driver.....330 yards i believe...wasn't accurate though......

 

I saw a stat and it showed driving accuracy as of Saturday's round and the leader had a 57% accuracy rate with this driver...very low # but still was in the lead....the guy was hot with the putter and the irons...the golf channel was advocating hitting the 3 wood which was 82% accurate....i said "im right there with ya"!!!

 

But then a wrx caller was on the air and said "he was just shorter on the same line and you guys do not know what you are talking about", then he hung up. LOL

[tsecor]

Shocking stat, or maybe not so much.....

 

Rory Mcilroy led the PGA in driving distance art 317 yards...0 wins. highest finish was 4th

 

Spieth - ranked 75th in distance. 3 wins, a major and lowest scoring avg on tour. GIR was 4th...his putting wasn't as great as people think, but he made huge pressure putts...

 

his approached to the green was where he stood out.....so many theories come into play

[North Butte]

Yeah, someone ought to tell Broadie that approach shot proximity is a key to success on Tour.

 

Where's that eye-roll emoticon when I need it...

[rawdog]

Yeah, someone ought to tell Broadie that approach shot proximity is a key to success on Tour.

 

Where's that eye-roll emoticon when I need it...

 

If you want meaningful analysis instead of GIR nonsense and "so many theories"... PGA tour data from Rory's 36 recorded rounds and Spieth's 68 recorded rounds.

 

Driving Strokes Gained

3. Rory 3.512 strokes over a 4 round tournament

56. Spieth 1.104 strokes over a 4 round tournament

 

Putting Strokes Gained

42. Spieth 1.28 strokes over a 4 round tournament

140. Rory -0.572 strokes over a 4 round tournament

 

Approach Strokes Gained

1. Spieth 3.624 strokes over a 4 round tournament

52. Rory 1.16 strokes over a 4 round tournament

 

Around Green

13. Spieth 1.48 strokes over a 4 round tournament

58. Rory 0.476 strokes over a 4 round tournament

 

Total Strokes Gained

2. Spieth 7.484 strokes over a 4 round tournament

12. Rory 4.576 strokes over a 4 round tournament

 

What stands out is that Rory's advantage off the tee is cancelled out by Jordan's advantage with approach shots. It doesn't mean Rory isn't good off the tee... he was the third best on the PGA Tour off the tee this year.

 

Over the course of an average tournament, Spieth would beat Rory by a little less than three strokes, with about two strokes coming from putting.

 

Still, we're talking about two guys who beat the field by over a shot per round (with Spieth close to 2 shots per round). Two great players.

 

How someone could look at Rory leading the tour in driving distance and strokes gained off the tee, then view how his driving gave him a 3.5 stroke advantage every single tournament as a negative is beyond me.

 

Maybe Rory should give that advantage up and then only gain about one stroke on the field every four rounds?

 

EDIT: Should also note that Spieth entered 23 PGA tournaments, Rory entered 14.

 

Spieth

3 wins

3 seconds

2 thirds

12 top 10s

17 top 25s

20 cuts made

 

AMAZING YEAR

 

Rory

6 top 10s

8 top 25s

12 cuts made

1 rib injury

 

Jordan had a great year, but sheesh, are we really making the leap that Rory hits it far and that's why he doesn't win?

[Ri_Redneck]

You guys aren't going to accomplish much poking at each other with sticks. However, I think we can all agree that the rough at East Lake, in some locations, was at least a 1/2 stroke costing hazard.

 

Fair enough?

 

BT

[deadsolid...shank]

You guys aren't going to accomplish much poking at each other with sticks. However, I think we can all agree that the rough at East Lake, in some locations, was at least a 1/2 stroke costing hazard.

 

Fair enough?

 

BT

 

My goodness, that stuff was nasty! How long has it been since we've seen a pro worry about a 100 yard carry over a hazard?

 

It appeared to me that on #18, no matter how, or if the shot was more accurate or just shorter, getting it in the fairway was paramount.

[tsecor]

its all in good fun. Im ok with people poking me as long as it doesn't get too personal like some guys did prior...

 

I found the eyroll emoji for you. feel free to use it anytime..;)

[tsecor]

You guys aren't going to accomplish much poking at each other with sticks. However, I think we can all agree that the rough at East Lake, in some locations, was at least a 1/2 stroke costing hazard.

 

Fair enough?

 

BT

 

My goodness, that stuff was nasty! How long has it been since we've seen a pro worry about a 100 yard carry over a hazard?

 

It appeared to me that on #18, no matter how, or if the shot was more accurate or just shorter, getting it in the fairway was paramount.

yea it was....JT was not accurate on his drive, he was longer :)

[rawdog]

You guys aren't going to accomplish much poking at each other with sticks. However, I think we can all agree that the rough at East Lake, in some locations, was at least a 1/2 stroke costing hazard.

 

Fair enough?

 

BT

 

That seems plausible. Using outdated metrics (strokes gained not published yet for this tourney), winner hit 60.7% of fairways. Assuming 39.3% of the 56 par 4s and par 5s incurred a half shot penalty for missing the fairway, that's 11 strokes attributed to just missing fairways.

 

Justin Thomas hit more fairways (62.5%), so assuming 37.5% of the 56 par 4s and par 5s incurred a half shot penalty for missing the fairway, that's 10.5 strokes attributed to just missing fairways.

 

So pretty much a wash between first place and second place.

 

To answer the question of what the winner used:

 

"Xander Schauffele is not large in stature at 5-foot-10 and 170 pounds, but he came up big off the tee at the Tour Championship and his prowess with the driver was a major asset in claiming the biggest victory of his career.

 

Using a TaylorMade M2 driver with a 45.75-inch Graphite Design DI-7X shaft tipped one inch, Schauffele ripped a tee shot 347 yards tee shot on the final hole that split the fairway on the par-5 finishing hole. That lead to a solid iron shot just short of the green and two putts from the fringe for the winning birdie. For the week Schauffele averaged an impressive 314.5 yards while hitting more than 60 percent of his fairways."

 

___

 

Xander is 20th in strokes gained off the tee and Justin Thomas is 32nd on PGA Tour.

 

Using the Stenson logic, maybe we should ask two of the top 32 players at driving the ball why they chose a driver over a three wood on the last hole?

 

I love these case by case scenarios that prove nothing :)

[rawdog]

Shocking stat, or maybe not so much.....

 

Rory Mcilroy led the PGA in driving distance art 317 yards...0 wins. highest finish was 4th

 

Spieth - ranked 75th in distance. 3 wins, a major and lowest scoring avg on tour. GIR was 4th...his putting wasn't as great as people think, but he made huge pressure putts...

 

his approached to the green was where he stood out.....so many theories come into play

 

Can you do a comparison of Justin Thomas and Spieth, please?

 

Justin Thomas was 8th in driving distance art 310 yards...5 wins. highest finish was 1st... 5 times. He also won a $10m bonus for the Tour Championship.

 

Spieth was 2nd in total strokes gained, while Thomas was 5th (ie, scoring average).

 

He was about a quarter shot worse per round than Spieth, drove the ball further than Spieth, putted worse than Spieth, but somehow had more wins?

 

How could this be?

[rawdog]

It's just interesting that any argument made about Justin Thomas losing the Tour Championship by using a driver can immediately be answered with the fact that Xander used a driver as well.

 

The two are so similar in driving ability, and they both made the same decision to maximize their chance of winning (assuming, ya know, players know what's optimal for their game).

 

JT averages 309 off the tee, 26 feet from center line, ~55% fairways hit

Xander averages 307 off the tee, 24 feet from center line, ~58% fairways hit

 

Xander executed the shot, JT did not. Xander won, JT lost. Not a whole lot else to read into here.

[deadsolid...shank]

It's just interesting that any argument made about Justin Thomas losing the Tour Championship by using a driver can immediately be answered with the fact that Xander used a driver as well.

 

The two are so similar in driving ability, and they both made the same decision to maximize their chance of winning (assuming, ya know, players know what's optimal for their game).

 

JT averages 309 off the tee, 26 feet from center line, ~55% fairways hit

Xander averages 307 off the tee, 24 feet from center line, ~58% fairways hit

 

Xander executed the shot, JT did not. Xander won, JT lost. Not a whole lot else to read into here.

 

Sometimes you just have to hit a good shot.

[tsecor]

or maybe in the 1st two rounds when JT was less than 40% accurate with his driver, he should have used 3w and saved himself a few shots there.....sometimes being in the rough is just not the place to be, especially on a hole that saw 61 birdies over the weekend (most on this course)....

[rawdog]

or maybe in the 1st two rounds when JT was less than 40% accurate with his driver, he should have used 3w and saved himself a few shots there.....sometimes being in the rough is just not the place to be, especially on a hole that saw 61 birdies over the weekend (most on this course)....

 

JT hit 78.57% of fairways in round 1 and 64.29% in round 2. Strokes gained for those rounds were 2.389 and 1.019, respectively.

 

Were you able to find club-by-club data? That would be neat to see.

[Jack Pearsall]

Visiting, JP played Gannon Muni in Lynn MA last week. It was an incredibly windy day. Thankfully, JP brought DIs instead of hybrids or a five wood.

His driver is too high launching at times and is a bit difficult to launch low. It really takes a perfect strike given the winds. Instead he flattened the three wood and was pretty good low flighting it, and it worked really well. Hit it plenty far given the nature of this muni. Played well given course unfamiliarity and insane wind.

Your results may be different.

Forgot how tough it is to putt into a ridiculous wind...

[Ri_Redneck]

You guys aren't going to accomplish much poking at each other with sticks. However, I think we can all agree that the rough at East Lake, in some locations, was at least a 1/2 stroke costing hazard.

 

Fair enough?

 

BT

 

That seems plausible. Using outdated metrics (strokes gained not published yet for this tourney), winner hit 60.7% of fairways. Assuming 39.3% of the 56 par 4s and par 5s incurred a half shot penalty for missing the fairway, that's 11 strokes attributed to just missing fairways.

 

Justin Thomas hit more fairways (62.5%), so assuming 37.5% of the 56 par 4s and par 5s incurred a half shot penalty for missing the fairway, that's 10.5 strokes attributed to just missing fairways.

 

So pretty much a wash between first place and second place.

 

To answer the question of what the winner used:

 

"Xander Schauffele is not large in stature at 5-foot-10 and 170 pounds, but he came up big off the tee at the Tour Championship and his prowess with the driver was a major asset in claiming the biggest victory of his career.

 

Using a TaylorMade M2 driver with a 45.75-inch Graphite Design DI-7X shaft tipped one inch, Schauffele ripped a tee shot 347 yards tee shot on the final hole that split the fairway on the par-5 finishing hole. That lead to a solid iron shot just short of the green and two putts from the fringe for the winning birdie. For the week Schauffele averaged an impressive 314.5 yards while hitting more than 60 percent of his fairways."

 

___

 

Xander is 20th in strokes gained off the tee and Justin Thomas is 32nd on PGA Tour.

 

Using the Stenson logic, maybe we should ask two of the top 32 players at driving the ball why they chose a driver over a three wood on the last hole?

 

I love these case by case scenarios that prove nothing :)

I said "in some places". There were several shots I saw that we're in the rough, but decent lies. Those times, the rough was no different than the fairway. To do a proper assessment, you would have to know how many shots landed in "those places", not the rough in general. While you work on that, I'm gonna go turn down the ferrules on my new irons.

 

BT

[jewofgolf]

You absolutely cannot make conclusions based on one hole in one situation. You make a plan and stick to it,as a player. JT hit a drive offline, XS did not. Bad shots happen. There is no gaurantee that JT hits the green from the fairway 30 yards back. The percentage play is driver, it just didn't work out.

[rawdog]

You guys aren't going to accomplish much poking at each other with sticks. However, I think we can all agree that the rough at East Lake, in some locations, was at least a 1/2 stroke costing hazard.

 

Fair enough?

 

BT

 

That seems plausible. Using outdated metrics (strokes gained not published yet for this tourney), winner hit 60.7% of fairways. Assuming 39.3% of the 56 par 4s and par 5s incurred a half shot penalty for missing the fairway, that's 11 strokes attributed to just missing fairways.

 

Justin Thomas hit more fairways (62.5%), so assuming 37.5% of the 56 par 4s and par 5s incurred a half shot penalty for missing the fairway, that's 10.5 strokes attributed to just missing fairways.

 

So pretty much a wash between first place and second place.

 

To answer the question of what the winner used:

 

"Xander Schauffele is not large in stature at 5-foot-10 and 170 pounds, but he came up big off the tee at the Tour Championship and his prowess with the driver was a major asset in claiming the biggest victory of his career.

 

Using a TaylorMade M2 driver with a 45.75-inch Graphite Design DI-7X shaft tipped one inch, Schauffele ripped a tee shot 347 yards tee shot on the final hole that split the fairway on the par-5 finishing hole. That lead to a solid iron shot just short of the green and two putts from the fringe for the winning birdie. For the week Schauffele averaged an impressive 314.5 yards while hitting more than 60 percent of his fairways."

 

___

 

Xander is 20th in strokes gained off the tee and Justin Thomas is 32nd on PGA Tour.

 

Using the Stenson logic, maybe we should ask two of the top 32 players at driving the ball why they chose a driver over a three wood on the last hole?

 

I love these case by case scenarios that prove nothing :)

I said "in some places". There were several shots I saw that we're in the rough, but decent lies. Those times, the rough was no different than the fairway. To do a proper assessment, you would have to know how many shots landed in "those places", not the rough in general. While you work on that, I'm gonna go turn down the ferrules on my new irons.

 

BT

 

I know what you said. I was using .5 strokes as a reasonable average. Meaning some lies were worth more and some less than a half stroke penalty. I was agreeing with you. Your post reminded me of the article I read about Erin Hills, where it was estimated the rough cost .45 - .55 strokes per instance. A lot of the quotes I read about East Lake was that the rough was some of the worst players had seen. So I think you were in the ballpark!

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rough-estimate-the-real-effects-of-erin-hills-tall-grass

 

While you were working on your ferrules, I re-laced my shoes!

[tsecor]

You absolutely cannot make conclusions based on one hole in one situation. You make a plan and stick to it,as a player. JT hit a drive offline, XS did not. Bad shots happen. There is no gaurantee that JT hits the green from the fairway 30 yards back. The percentage play is driver, it just didn't work out.

nobody is doing that. we spoke of the 2nd round as well, but hole 18 is a microcosm of a possibility a theory is wrong, especially when you hit a 3w 300 and are 20% more accurate on the week with said club. That's all that is being said...you can still make birdie with a 3w on that hole.....but the play was going for Eagle with a driver...possibly a mistake in theory at that moment

[rawdog]

You absolutely cannot make conclusions based on one hole in one situation. You make a plan and stick to it,as a player. JT hit a drive offline, XS did not. Bad shots happen. There is no gaurantee that JT hits the green from the fairway 30 yards back. The percentage play is driver, it just didn't work out.

nobody is doing that. we spoke of the 2nd round as well, but hole 18 is a microcosm of a possibility a theory is wrong, especially when you hit a 3w 300 and are 20% more accurate on the week with said club. That's all that is being said...you can still make birdie with a 3w on that hole.....but the play was going for Eagle with a driver...possibly a mistake in theory at that moment

 

Asking for a second time where you're getting the club selection info.

[tsecor]

Brandan Hagy was 3rd in distance this year on tour....who? exactly

 

hasn't won a tourney yet....stats are great, theories are great but it doesn't lead to wins or even better scoring....

 

on another note, playing this weekend and trying out a new shaft....woot woot

[sgibbspa]

I usually get killed for pointing out these little details (because for some reason golfers are convinced based on nothing that being in the fairway matters) but it is much, much better to be 260 in the rough than 240 in the fairway. Twenty extra yards off the tee (about 10% in this scenario) is worth almost three tenths of a stroke per hole.

 

So to answer your question: no. It depends on the player of course, but distance and speed are king in this game. Period.

 

Depends on the rough. It gets juicy and thick here in the summer. At least 3" - 4". Unless you are really strong, even controlling a wedge out of the mess is more difficult than a 7 or 8 from the fairway.

And other factors. My home course has tons of trees. I hit the ball super high but most of the time I still have to resort to punching under or hitting a wedge sideways....I'll take the 20 extra yards all day.

[North Butte]

I usually get killed for pointing out these little details (because for some reason golfers are convinced based on nothing that being in the fairway matters) but it is much, much better to be 260 in the rough than 240 in the fairway. Twenty extra yards off the tee (about 10% in this scenario) is worth almost three tenths of a stroke per hole.

 

So to answer your question: no. It depends on the player of course, but distance and speed are king in this game. Period.

 

Depends on the rough. It gets juicy and thick here in the summer. At least 3" - 4". Unless you are really strong, even controlling a wedge out of the mess is more difficult than a 7 or 8 from the fairway.

And other factors. My home course has tons of trees. I hit the ball super high but most of the time I still have to resort to punching under or hitting a wedge sideways....I'll take the 20 extra yards all day.

 

Also, it's often the case that the really narrow-corridor courses with big trees tend to shade the rough and keep it from getting too lush. I've played some of those courses where if you're close enough to the tree line to have to curve the ball (as if I could curve the ball on demand!) or punch in then the grass itself is thin or even non-existent.

[playa]

I play on a VERY tight course and I use driver whenever there are no doglegs or hazards long. This might fly in the face of the popular strategy, but I find on a really tight course there is still a good chance of finding the trees with irons or 3w, so I may as well use driver and be in the trees closer to the hole. Recovery shots get easier the closer you get to the green.

[North Butte]

Sam Snead famously said when a tee shot was really tight he liked to rear back and give his driver a little extra power.