Backstopping needs to be stopped

[gioguy21]

so wait, we're talking about FInau as if he is the bad guy -- why are we insisting it is on HIM to protect the field?

 

if it was such a big deal to protect the field, wouldn't Kokrak be up in arms about it, complaining he insisted he was going to mark to protect the field and Finau hit anyway? ...nope, b/c it didn't happen.

 

kokrak didn't think it was a big deal so, why are we making it a big deal?

[OldTomMorris]

What proof do you have that this is a recent trend?

 

As I said I've seen it my own eyes, been watching golf since the early/mid 80s (in person and on TV) and while there is infinitely more coverage nowadays as I noted in various posts my recall is in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario, that appears to have changed.

 

https://twitter.com/...665174834061312

 

https://twitter.com/...972755239038976

 

https://twitter.com/...009814291165185

 

https://twitter.com/...783148382281728

 

Another member posted these from Twitter as some recent examples.

[mwkbmw]

Such a non issue. Literally dumber than talking about what pants Ian poulter is wearihg .... no way on the planet anyone is hitting a ball on the green on purpose. Why not just hole it if this is so ?

 

I don't think this issue is that hard to understand. I don't believe anyone is actually aiming for the ball, but it's mere presence gives the player an advantage by acting as a potential, additional backstop.

I have been playing golf many years and been on this site for many years. If it is such a big deal why is this the first time I have seen it come up? I don't consider myself to be uninformed...

 

I'm in the aforementioned camp of these guys not having enough talent to hit that ball...just hit it in the hole and move on if that talent exists!

 

The reason its come up I believe and I've noticed it with my own eyes is there has been a recent trend of players not marking the ball whereas in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario.

 

What proof do you have that this is a recent trend?

 

There is a thread on GolfWRX about it.

[dmac4g]

This has to be the greatest troll thread in all of GolfWRX history.

[sfiggins]

More than once I've heard Johnny Miller say something to the effect that he can't believe a guy isn't marking his ball or asking his opponent to mark their ball.

 

Now I understand what he means.

[straightshot7]

It's clear that players are deliberately not marking the ball (especially evident in team golf situations) in order for their playing partner to gain an advantage.

 

Maybe not all of the time (sometimes it's simply a situation where marking the ball would require an abnormal/excessive wait) but definitely some of the time.

 

In my opinion, that is not in the spirit of the game, and players should mark whenever it's reasonably possible. And they should be required to whenever possible.

 

To deliberately want a ball left there as a backstop is cheap and borderline cheating in my opinion. It's excessively "using the rules to your advantage".

 

A good player shouldn't want or need the ball left there. But I can understand if they think every player is doing it, then they would feel it only fair to do the same.

 

The Tour needs to unilaterally outlaw this in a reasonable way.

[bladehunter]

But how ?

[caniac6]

If Finau was good enough to use the ball as a backstop, why didn't he just aim at the hole?

[mosesgolf]

Some of you are giving Tour players way too much credit. They're not THAT good. :D

[OldTomMorris]

If Finau was good enough to use the ball as a backstop, why didn't he just aim at the hole?

 

Yes a player isn't good enough to guarantee they can hit the flag, thats the point. If there is an unmarked ball in close proximity to the hole and a backstop is more likely to help the player than hurt the player then if the ball remains unmarked for the shot it doubles their chances of hitting something.

[OldTomMorris]

Some of you are giving Tour players way too much credit. They're not THAT good. :D

 

Its about probability though, two backstops are better than one (the flag).

 

I actually believe some of them are that good.

[MidwestGolfBum]

If Finau was good enough to use the ball as a backstop, why didn't he just aim at the hole?

 

Yes a player isn't good enough to guarantee they can hit the flag, thats the point. If there is an unmarked ball in close proximity to the hole and a backstop wouldn't hurt the player then if the ball remains unmarked for the shot it doubles their chances of hitting something.

 

What's to say that they don't hit either of those backstops (ball or flag) and end up in a worse spot? In the few times I have seen it happen live in my golfing life, there isn't one that I can remember that was in favor of the player who didn't wait for somebody to mark typically ending up in a worse spot than had the ball just kept going in a straight line past the hole.

 

I'm asking this to be a contrarian, I certainly don't see why the playing competitors would want to leave the ball there to give any kind of an advantage to another guy, regardless of how good of a friend they are outside of team competition.

[JerseyBoy]

Really weird question. When I read "backstopping" I seriously thought this was going to be about guys pitching into the grandstands and ricocheting their ball onto the green somehow. Is that allowed?

[OldTomMorris]

If Finau was good enough to use the ball as a backstop, why didn't he just aim at the hole?

 

Yes a player isn't good enough to guarantee they can hit the flag, thats the point. If there is an unmarked ball in close proximity to the hole and a backstop wouldn't hurt the player then if the ball remains unmarked for the shot it doubles their chances of hitting something.

 

What's to say that they don't hit either of those backstops (ball or flag) and end up in a worse spot? In the few times I have seen it happen live in my golfing life, there isn't one that I can remember that was in favor of the player who didn't wait for somebody to mark typically ending up in a worse spot than had the ball just kept going in a straight line past the hole.

 

I'm asking this to be a contrarian, I certainly don't see why the playing competitors would want to leave the ball there to give any kind of an advantage to another guy, regardless of how good of a friend they are outside of team competition.

 

Of course there is an element of risk, its a calculated gamble. If the gamble wasn't worth it the player would have the ball marked.

 

With the Finau scenario, the only realistic way he could stop it would be to hit something, the majority of the time the only thing to hit is the flag.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

this won't be regulated because as others mentioned there just isn't a great way to do it. this falls among the many other unwritten rules and golf etiquette. if you chip close, mark your ball before the other player plays his shot. this involves green side shots, not approaches and not tee shots. it really isn't all that hard to do. as others have mentioned, its rare and probably doesn't really come into play all that often, but why not address it when it does.

 

just as tapping your spike marks down after putting out or avoiding stepping in someones line on the green, its not that hard to mark your ball to protect the field.

[gioguy21]

this won't be regulated because as others mentioned there just isn't a great way to do it. this falls among the many other unwritten rules and golf etiquette. if you chip close, mark your ball before the other player plays his shot. this involves green side shots, not approaches and not tee shots. it really isn't all that hard to do. as others have mentioned, its rare and probably doesn't really come into play all that often, but why not address it when it does.

 

just as tapping your spike marks down after putting out or avoiding stepping in someones line on the green, its not that hard to mark your ball to protect the field.

 

"it's rare and probably doesn't really come into play all that often" -- well, right there should tell you that it's not really an issue.

 

as for addressing it when it does -- both players addressed it just fine IMO. it wasn't the duty of Finau to MAKE Kokrak mark, and if Kokrak was too busy doing whatever it was he was doing to mark -- so be it. he didnt' ask finau to wait. end of story.

 

what's to address? the public's notion, AFTER the fact, that he should've marked?

 

you said it yourself, 'there's no great way to do it'...so, how should we address it then?

[North Butte]

I always tell people to run up there and mark the ball before I hit my shot. I also ask them, while they're there, go ahead and lay their putter down behind the hole rather than them having to carry it around and all...

[TreyWingbat]

That putter trick has taken a lot of strokes off my game... I'm not sure why more people don't do it. I also lay down the flagstick parallel to my putts so it acts like a bumper when about to putt...

[Mr. Herbert]

What proof do you have that this is a recent trend?

 

As I said I've seen it my own eyes, been watching golf since the early/mid 80s (in person and on TV) and while there is infinitely more coverage nowadays as I noted in various posts my recall is in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario, that appears to have changed.

 

https://twitter.com/...665174834061312

 

https://twitter.com/...972755239038976

 

https://twitter.com/...009814291165185

 

https://twitter.com/...783148382281728

 

Another member posted these from Twitter as some recent examples.

 

Are you really trying to say that you can recall from 30 years ago watching players always run up and mark their balls? Certainly you can understand why I might have a hard time believing that.

[cvhookem63]

This has to be the greatest troll thread in all of GolfWRX history.

 

Idk...it has got some pretty large shoes to fill to get that designation

[OldTomMorris]

What proof do you have that this is a recent trend?

 

As I said I've seen it my own eyes, been watching golf since the early/mid 80s (in person and on TV) and while there is infinitely more coverage nowadays as I noted in various posts my recall is in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario, that appears to have changed.

 

https://twitter.com/...665174834061312

 

https://twitter.com/...972755239038976

 

https://twitter.com/...009814291165185

 

https://twitter.com/...783148382281728

 

Another member posted these from Twitter as some recent examples.

 

Are you really trying to say that you can recall from 30 years ago watching players always run up and mark their balls? Certainly you can understand why I might have a hard time believing that.

 

Its not just me, golf writers are writing about it. I've never said players run up and mark their balls. I've noted this several times, in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario but I don't see that now. Its noticeable for that reason, not claiming I recall every shot I've watched in my life.

[golfing_penguin]

But if we're talking about protecting the field because Finau wanted the backstop, what's stopping every other player in every other field doing when they get the chance?

 

And don't you people ask "Do you want me to mark that?" when someone is playing a short shot? Makes it their choice. Like it is for every. single. one of them

[youraway2]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

Wow, guess you never read the Rules. First of all if the ball at rest is moved it must be replaced, not knocked away and have a worse putt. Second, the player was of course trying to hole the shot, and as an added benefit he was using another players ball to "assist" him of he missed the hole. Third the player, Kokrat, who intentionally left his ball in a position to assist, did a disservice to himself and the entire field, and if left the ball in place intentionally to "assist" the he should be disqualified. If in any way the two players agreed, even if not verbally, to leave a ball in place to assist, then they are both disqualified.

 

The only reason this ball should have been left, unmarked, was if the player wasn't in a nearby position to mark and not interfere with the play of the ball from the other player. I believe Kokrat was nearby, even standing on the fringe of the green.

 

I believe it was intentional and just anther example of bending or manipulating the Rules on the PGA Tour.

[cvhookem63]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

Wow, guess you never read the Rules. First of all if the ball at rest is moved it must be replaced, not knocked away and have a worse putt. Second, the player was of course trying to hole the shot, and as an added benefit he was using another players ball to "assist" him of he missed the hole. Third the player, Kokrat, who intentionally left his ball in a position to assist, did a disservice to himself and the entire field, and if left the ball in place intentionally to "assist" the he should be disqualified. If in any way the two players agreed, even if not verbally, to leave a ball in place to assist, then they are both disqualified.

 

The only reason this ball should have been left, unmarked, was if the player wasn't in a nearby position to mark and not interfere with the play of the ball from the other player. I believe Kokrat was nearby, even standing on the fringe of the green.

 

I believe it was intentional and just anther example of bending or manipulating the Rules on the PGA Tour.

 

You believe it was intentional. That's an opinion that could only be proven if you heard Kokrak say it or could read his mind. Finau was in the bunker and said after the round that he didn't even know that the ball was there.

[youraway2]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

Wow, guess you never read the Rules. First of all if the ball at rest is moved it must be replaced, not knocked away and have a worse putt. Second, the player was of course trying to hole the shot, and as an added benefit he was using another players ball to "assist" him of he missed the hole. Third the player, Kokrat, who intentionally left his ball in a position to assist, did a disservice to himself and the entire field, and if left the ball in place intentionally to "assist" the he should be disqualified. If in any way the two players agreed, even if not verbally, to leave a ball in place to assist, then they are both disqualified.

 

The only reason this ball should have been left, unmarked, was if the player wasn't in a nearby position to mark and not interfere with the play of the ball from the other player. I believe Kokrat was nearby, even standing on the fringe of the green.

 

I believe it was intentional and just anther example of bending or manipulating the Rules on the PGA Tour.

 

You believe it was intentional. That's an opinion that could only be proven if you heard Kokrak say it or could read his mind. Finau was in the bunker and said after the round that he didn't even know that the ball was there.

You're absolutely correct, but I believe it was intentional, but I do not know, so you're correct. As for Finau saying he didn't know the ball even there, give me a break!

[North Butte]

Like it or don't, the Rules do NOT impose an affirmative responsibility on each player to yell, "STOP WAIT A MINUTE MY BALL IS UNMARKED ON THE GREEN!!!!" and sprint up there any time another player's shot might possibly benefit from the ball's position. The Rules may be idiotic in some ways but they aren't that idiotic.

[Cwebb]

If this had happened on one of the last couple holes and Finau had won, I think more would be upset about it.

 

It's going to take this happening in a big situation in the spot light, for them to do something about it

[North Butte]

If this had happened on one of the last couple holes and Finau had won, I think more would be upset about it.

 

It's going to take this happening in a big situation in the spot light, for them to do something about it

 

So when they "do something about it" where is the limit? In a greenside bunker? Within 40 yards of the green? 50 yards? Send you caddie forward before hitting approach shots just in case a ball needs to be marked?

[Cwebb]

If this had happened on one of the last couple holes and Finau had won, I think more would be upset about it.

 

It's going to take this happening in a big situation in the spot light, for them to do something about it

 

So when they "do something about it" where is the limit? In a greenside bunker? Within 40 yards of the green? 50 yards? Send you caddie forward before hitting approach shots just in case a ball needs to be marked?

 

I don't know what the answer is. I just know that I'm not Ok with this happening on the 17th green and 71st hole of the Masters

[youraway2]

Like it or don't, the Rules do NOT impose an affirmative responsibility on each player to yell, "STOP WAIT A MINUTE MY BALL IS UNMARKED ON THE GREEN!!!!" and sprint up there any time another player's shot might possibly benefit from the ball's position. The Rules may be idiotic in some ways but they aren't that idiotic.

Correct, you do not have to take action like that and should not. However if you are in position and will not interfere with the play of another player, you should mark your ball if you believe it, or any other ball, would "assist" the play of another player. It's not crazy, it's common practice. You simply walk onto the green, mark and lift your ball. Of course if you're 100-yards away, it would be out of the question. But, if you're on or near the green and your ball might assist another competitor, you should mark you're ball or ask for another ball to be marked it it would assist.