Backstopping needs to be stopped

[North Butte]

How about when a ball hits a flagstick and kicks back in the water in the Masters. OK with that? Because players could certainly wait and send a caddie forward to pull that sucker before they hit!

[North Butte]

Like it or don't, the Rules do NOT impose an affirmative responsibility on each player to yell, "STOP WAIT A MINUTE MY BALL IS UNMARKED ON THE GREEN!!!!" and sprint up there any time another player's shot might possibly benefit from the ball's position. The Rules may be idiotic in some ways but they aren't that idiotic.

Correct, you do not have to take action like that and should not. However if you are in position and will not interfere with the play of another player, you should mark your ball if you believe it, or any other ball, would "assist" the play of another player. It's not crazy, it's common practice. You simply walk onto the green, mark and lift your ball. Of course if you're 100-yards away, it would be out of the question. But, if you're on or near the green and your ball might assist another competitor, you should mark you're ball or ask for another ball to be marked it it would assist.

 

"Should" is a tricky word for Rules writers. There are plenty of things that someone thinks "should" be done but that it's wickedly impractical to actually legislate in a Rule.

 

That particular Rule is written the only way it could possibly be workable. It says you can not conspire with another player to deliberately gain an advantage, which is correct. That's enforceable. But given that some judgment is required in when marking makes sense, you'll have to settle for being holier than thou because the Rule simply can't impose your sense of justice on the discretion a player is exercising. Can't be done.

[youraway2]

How about when a ball hits a flagstick and kicks back in the water in the Masters. OK with that? Because players could certainly wait and send a caddie forward to pull that sucker before they hit!

Yep, just as Phil did when he asked Bones to go forward and remove the flagstick, I believe it was at Pebble Beach.

[ClintDagger]

I was taught in college to "protect the field" when you can. Even good college players can put the ball around the pin from most lies around the green. No one is advocating marking the ball from drives or approach shots. But once everyone is in the vicinity of the green, everyone would usually mark, especially for shots that were just a few feet from the pin. Now college players have to carry their own bags, wipe down their own clubs, rake their own bunkers. Etcetera. So that wasn't necessarily the first priority if pace of play is a factor. Tour guys have caddies and I would think would be in an even better position to mark when greenside shots are being played. To me it's about using common sense and should something happen, it's not the end of the world. But I think people would want to mark whenever they within reason can.

 

That makes perfect sense and is completely reasonable. But it still boils down to how do you regulate when it has to be marked?

 

Even your statement "most lies around the green" is way to ambiguous to use it in a rule.

I'm not advocating it being a rule. I think Tour golfers would gladly try to mark as often as they can if the PGA Tour just sent out a letter asking them to be wary of the issue.

[North Butte]

How about when a ball hits a flagstick and kicks back in the water in the Masters. OK with that? Because players could certainly wait and send a caddie forward to pull that sucker before they hit!

Yep, just as Phil did when he asked Bones to go forward and remove the flagstick, I believe it was at Pebble Beach.

 

Unless the people running tournaments get the stick out of their collective Jacksie the day will come when every player sends someone to pull flags before hitting short approaches, every ball on every green will be marked before the next player even begins his "routine", the player will have his caddie lie down on the green to watch his ball with a magnifying glass and make sure it is marked correctly and not moving and every round will take 12 hours to complete.

 

The urge to somehow eliminate any good or bad break from a game played outdoors on a 100+ acre playing field is preposterous.

[DancingShadows]

Like it or don't, the Rules do NOT impose an affirmative responsibility on each player to yell, "STOP WAIT A MINUTE MY BALL IS UNMARKED ON THE GREEN!!!!" and sprint up there any time another player's shot might possibly benefit from the ball's position. The Rules may be idiotic in some ways but they aren't that idiotic.

Correct, you do not have to take action like that and should not. However if you are in position and will not interfere with the play of another player, you should mark your ball if you believe it, or any other ball, would "assist" the play of another player. It's not crazy, it's common practice. You simply walk onto the green, mark and lift your ball. Of course if you're 100-yards away, it would be out of the question. But, if you're on or near the green and your ball might assist another competitor, you should mark you're ball or ask for another ball to be marked it it would assist.

 

Who cares about the specific specific number? It should be a reasonable distance, 30 yards or less, even 50. Who cares about the number by the single yardage. I'm confident a rules committee constituted of the best PGA and R&A officials would think of something fitting that would replace current rule.

[youraway2]

Like it or don't, the Rules do NOT impose an affirmative responsibility on each player to yell, "STOP WAIT A MINUTE MY BALL IS UNMARKED ON THE GREEN!!!!" and sprint up there any time another player's shot might possibly benefit from the ball's position. The Rules may be idiotic in some ways but they aren't that idiotic.

Correct, you do not have to take action like that and should not. However if you are in position and will not interfere with the play of another player, you should mark your ball if you believe it, or any other ball, would "assist" the play of another player. It's not crazy, it's common practice. You simply walk onto the green, mark and lift your ball. Of course if you're 100-yards away, it would be out of the question. But, if you're on or near the green and your ball might assist another competitor, you should mark you're ball or ask for another ball to be marked it it would assist.

 

"Should" is a tricky word for Rules writers. There are plenty of things that someone thinks "should" be done but that it's wickedly impractical to actually legislate in a Rule.

 

That particular Rule is written the only way it could possibly be workable. It says you can not conspire with another player to deliberately gain an advantage, which is correct. That's enforceable. But given that some judgment is required in when marking makes sense, you'll have to settle for being holier than thou because the Rule simply can't impose your sense of justice on the discretion a player is exercising. Can't be done.

I don't disagree with you at all, the integrity is on the player or players. If they agreed, in any way, they should be disqualified. But it's on them, and they would have to live with it. If they didn't agree, then they didn't violate a Rule of Golf.

 

Decision 22/7

 

Ball Assisting Fellow-Competitor on Putting Green; Procedure for Referee If Competitor Does Not Lift Ball

 

Q.In stroke play, a competitor's ball is in a position to assist the play of a fellow-competitor and the competitor is in a position to lift the ball under Rule 22-1 without delaying the fellow-competitor's play. However, the competitor does not take any action to invoke the Rule. Would a referee be justified in intervening and requesting the competitor to invoke the Rule to protect himself and the rest of the field?

 

A.Yes. If the competitor were to object, there would be strong evidence of an agreement not to lift the ball for the purpose of assisting the fellow-competitor in breach of Rule 22-1. The referee would be justified in so advising the competitors involved and warning that failure to lift the ball would result in disqualification under Rule 22-1.

[VNutz]

Man, the winter silly argument season has started early this year.

[PostandGhost]

This is cheating just like in Nascar when drivers allow other drivers from the same ownership to block and/or draft behind them in order to beat third party drivers. Remember in Talladega nights? Finau and Kokrak basically did a little Shake and Bake.

[bscinstnct]

This is cheating just like in Nascar when drivers allow other drivers from the same ownership to block and/or draft behind them in order to beat third party drivers. Remember in Talledega nights? Finau and Kokrak basically did a little Shake and Bake.

 

[Dpavs]

I was taught in college to "protect the field" when you can. Even good college players can put the ball around the pin from most lies around the green. No one is advocating marking the ball from drives or approach shots. But once everyone is in the vicinity of the green, everyone would usually mark, especially for shots that were just a few feet from the pin. Now college players have to carry their own bags, wipe down their own clubs, rake their own bunkers. Etcetera. So that wasn't necessarily the first priority if pace of play is a factor. Tour guys have caddies and I would think would be in an even better position to mark when greenside shots are being played. To me it's about using common sense and should something happen, it's not the end of the world. But I think people would want to mark whenever they within reason can.

 

A player lost his PGA card recently because a leaf hit his ball while it was moving. Perhaps we should apply common sense to other areas of the rule book before worrying too much about this one? Especially when common sense dictates that a player would be helped by that ball sitting on the green about 0.01% of the time.

 

That was actually a really weird example of how not knowing the rules can hurt you. He lost his chance to get his card because he did not know that under the rules he should have replaced his ball and replayed the stroke without penalty which would have given him another chance to sink that short putt. Anyway my point is that in this case, knowing Rule 19-1 would have really helped him but instead he putted out and then to add to the error he proceeded to sign an incorrect score card at the end of the round. All in total costing him 4 strokes. What a shame it was.

[CallawayLefty]

I was taught in college to "protect the field" when you can. Even good college players can put the ball around the pin from most lies around the green. No one is advocating marking the ball from drives or approach shots. But once everyone is in the vicinity of the green, everyone would usually mark, especially for shots that were just a few feet from the pin. Now college players have to carry their own bags, wipe down their own clubs, rake their own bunkers. Etcetera. So that wasn't necessarily the first priority if pace of play is a factor. Tour guys have caddies and I would think would be in an even better position to mark when greenside shots are being played. To me it's about using common sense and should something happen, it's not the end of the world. But I think people would want to mark whenever they within reason can.

 

A player lost his PGA card recently because a leaf hit his ball while it was moving. Perhaps we should apply common sense to other areas of the rule book before worrying too much about this one? Especially when common sense dictates that a player would be helped by that ball sitting on the green about 0.01% of the time.

 

That was actually a really weird example of how not knowing the rules can hurt you. He lost his chance to get his card because he did not know that under the rules he should have replaced his ball and replayed the stroke without penalty which would have given him another chance to sink that short putt. Anyway my point is that in this case, knowing Rule 19-1 would have really helped him but instead he putted out and then to add to the error he proceeded to sign an incorrect score card at the end of the round. All in total costing him 4 strokes. What a shame it was.

 

Yeah, I just think it should be an "at his option" thing. He can either replay it or play it as it lies and as affected by the impediment. But no penalty. It highlights the stupidity of some of the rules. For example, what happens if you hit a tree and then a leaf falls and hits your ball? Can you replay? How can you even tell? Stupid.

[cvhookem63]

This is cheating just like in Nascar when drivers allow other drivers from the same ownership to block and/or draft behind them in order to beat third party drivers. Remember in Talladega nights? Finau and Kokrak basically did a little Shake and Bake.

 

Finau racing Kokrak to hit his shot before the ball is marked

 

[JerseyBoy]

If this had happened on one of the last couple holes and Finau had won, I think more would be upset about it.

 

It's going to take this happening in a big situation in the spot light, for them to do something about it

 

That was a $200 000 shot though. He ended up solo second.

[PostandGhost]

This is cheating just like in Nascar when drivers allow other drivers from the same ownership to block and/or draft behind them in order to beat third party drivers. Remember in Talladega nights? Finau and Kokrak basically did a little Shake and Bake.

 

Finau racing Kokrak to hit his shot before the ball is marked

 

 

This is not protecting the field!

[golfgirlrobin]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

Wow, guess you never read the Rules. First of all if the ball at rest is moved it must be replaced, not knocked away and have a worse putt. Second, the player was of course trying to hole the shot, and as an added benefit he was using another players ball to "assist" him of he missed the hole. Third the player, Kokrat, who intentionally left his ball in a position to assist, did a disservice to himself and the entire field, and if left the ball in place intentionally to "assist" the he should be disqualified. If in any way the two players agreed, even if not verbally, to leave a ball in place to assist, then they are both disqualified.

 

The only reason this ball should have been left, unmarked, was if the player wasn't in a nearby position to mark and not interfere with the play of the ball from the other player. I believe Kokrat was nearby, even standing on the fringe of the green.

 

I believe it was intentional and just anther example of bending or manipulating the Rules on the PGA Tour.

 

You believe it was intentional. That's an opinion that could only be proven if you heard Kokrak say it or could read his mind. Finau was in the bunker and said after the round that he didn't even know that the ball was there.

You're absolutely correct, but I believe it was intentional, but I do not know, so you're correct. As for Finau saying he didn't know the ball even there, give me a break!

 

If that ball had been between him and the hole, you can bet he would have seen it and had it marked.

[Bushwood Country Club]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

THIS

[spbrooks]

If your good enough to stop your ball off another 1.68" ball from 30' away on purpose... god bless ya!

[Bushwood Country Club]

How about when a ball hits a flagstick and kicks back in the water in the Masters. OK with that? Because players could certainly wait and send a caddie forward to pull that sucker before they hit!

AND THIS....

[Bushwood Country Club]

Man, the winter silly argument season has started early this year.

WORD...

[Mr. Herbert]

What proof do you have that this is a recent trend?

 

As I said I've seen it my own eyes, been watching golf since the early/mid 80s (in person and on TV) and while there is infinitely more coverage nowadays as I noted in various posts my recall is in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario, that appears to have changed.

 

https://twitter.com/...665174834061312

 

https://twitter.com/...972755239038976

 

https://twitter.com/...009814291165185

 

https://twitter.com/...783148382281728

 

Another member posted these from Twitter as some recent examples.

 

Are you really trying to say that you can recall from 30 years ago watching players always run up and mark their balls? Certainly you can understand why I might have a hard time believing that.

 

Its not just me, golf writers are writing about it. I've never said players run up and mark their balls. I've noted this several times, in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario but I don't see that now. Its noticeable for that reason, not claiming I recall every shot I've watched in my life.

 

So if it's not players running up and marking their balls, exactly what do you mean when you say "every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario"? What other kind of efforts were they making?

[RobertBaron]

This can't really be legitimate concern.

[OldTomMorris]

So if it's not players running up and marking their balls, exactly what do you mean when you say "every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario"? What other kind of efforts were they making?

 

In recent times there have been incidents highlighted on Twitter which I remember seeing while watching coverage where the players have been at or around the green and chip shots, bunkers shots etc have been played with a ball adjacent to the whole - in these incidents there was no conceivable reason for the ball not to be marked. Historically the ball would have been marked in these instances.

 

Geoff Shackleford has been highlighting this for a while now. I get it that not everyone sees it the same but its definitely becoming more of a common practice so if anything it will be more of an issue in the future especially if someone happens to win an event after doing this.

[DancingShadows]

 

If that ball had been between him and the hole, you can bet he would have seen it and had it marked.

 

This sums it up perfectly. If the ball had been impeding his shot he would as sure as the sun sets have seen the ball and had it marked, BUT because it wasn't impeding him and only stood to help him he left it unmarked.

 

He obviously lied to the media saying he didn't see it because if he acknowledged he saw it then they ask why he didn't have it marked.

 

Every guy on tour does this and until they make a simple change to stop it this won't ever end.

[Valtiel]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

THIS

 

Even though I think this is a fairly silly argument overall, NO. NOT THIS.

 

The only thing more concerning than this being blown out of proportion is that the above post has been liked and agreed with so many times. Both points are wrong.

 

#1, It has nothing to do with a players intent to hit the ball, it has to do with the probability of the event happening given the other ball's proximity to the hole. To use an extreme example; if there were 6 balls around/beyond the hole then you could NOT try to hit any of them and still have a decent chance of doing so and thus gain an advantage. Given that, we can agree that 1 ball around/beyond the hole presents the same possible benefit to a lesser degree regardless of that player's intentions.

 

#2, The ball on the green gets replaced if it is moved. Every one of you knuckleheads that liked and quoted the above post needs to go read the rule book if you didn't already know that.

 

Now that this topic seems to actually be taken seriously by some people, here is the reality:

 

There is too much of a slippery slope here to make it a rule. Divots in fairways, which more likely impact anyone playing later in the day, present a greater threat to "protecting the field" than this backstopping idea. Also, statistically speaking, there has to be pretty close to an equal chance of the "backstop" actually hurting the player attempting to take advantage of it. If Finau's ball hits a little bit left or right of center at that speed then it caroms off into no man's land. You COULD make the argument that at the speed a carom would be that bad the ball was going to end up far away from the hole anyway, but that starts to become nit picky.

 

Back to the slippery slope part; the entire thing is too big a can of worms to able to write a single rule that solves it. How close do the players have to be to the green? How do you determine intent? How to you keep it from impacting pace of play too much? Bottom line is that it is a rarity that has close to an equal chance of hurting as much as it helps and thus does not warrant a rule change.

[deadsolid...shank]

How about when a ball hits a flagstick and kicks back in the water in the Masters. OK with that? Because players could certainly wait and send a caddie forward to pull that sucker before they hit!

Yep, just as Phil did when he asked Bones to go forward and remove the flagstick, I believe it was at Pebble Beach.

 

I mentioned that somewhere earlier YA, I think it was Torrey Pines.

[rangersgoalie]

So if it's not players running up and marking their balls, exactly what do you mean when you say "every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario"? What other kind of efforts were they making?

 

In recent times there have been incidents highlighted on Twitter which I remember seeing while watching coverage where the players have been at or around the green and chip shots, bunkers shots etc have been played with a ball adjacent to the whole - in these incidents there was no conceivable reason for the ball not to be marked. Historically the ball would have been marked in these instances.

 

Geoff Shackleford has been highlighting this for a while now. I get it that not everyone sees it the same but its definitely becoming more of a common practice so if anything it will be more of an issue in the future especially if someone happens to win an event after doing this.

 

Of course, Shackelford will high light anything he can take drive by potshots at tour pros. Guy is still mad he wasn't good enough to play regularly on his college team, let alone further. :taunt:

[DancingShadows]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

THIS

 

Apparently you two need to reread the rule book, if the player whose ball is already on the green is smacked it replaced as close to the original position as possible with no strokes.

 

 

Which is why players choose to leave the ball, because it helps out their buddy and cant hurt them in any way.

[sfiggins]

Can't wait for this to happen in the US Open just to see the ham-handed USGA make a mess of the ruling.

[cvhookem63]

Can't wait for this to happen in the US Open just to see the ham-handed USGA make a mess of the ruling.

 

The way the rule is currently worded, there is no ruling. The ball that was hit is just replaced. The only ruling would be that both players be disqualified if they are deemed to have colluded together to not remove the ball.