Playing golf in Vancouver Canada (NO POLITICS!)

[mukster]

Played Meadow Gardens yesterday. They have temp greens until it thaws. We played 4 temp greens before we got onto the real greens. Not ideal, but at this time of the year it is great to get out and play.

[The Beav]

14 hours ago, Shushwap said:

I was talking with a local course owner the other day and he thinks golf is going to take a hit in the next few years when people start to renew those massive mortgages...

Most people are over extended... They have the big house the new car the line of credit... Credit cards and now $150 plus rounds of golf...

It has to start shaking the tree in the next couple of years...

You'd think so right?  But somehow in BC the money train just keeps on flowing haha.

[knock it close]

19 hours ago, Shushwap said:

I was talking with a local course owner the other day and he thinks golf is going to take a hit in the next few years when people start to renew those massive mortgages...

Most people are over extended... They have the big house the new car the line of credit... Credit cards and now $150 plus rounds of golf...

It has to start shaking the tree in the next couple of years...

I think that's inevitable and there would be some regression even without the economic pain that might be coming. Think about how many people took up the game during covid or even got back into it because there wasn't a whole lot else to do and their schedules likely allowed for more time, I think we'd see that bubble burst a little no matter what. 

[Golfnuck]

On 10/30/2023 at 12:34 PM, The Beav said:

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.  Which courses do you think have the potential to be a Morgan-esque facility? 

 

I'm holding my breath that I'll be able to find a reasonable membership option for my son (6) and I to play in the future. 

 

Interest rates haven't kicked me in the teeth yet but I have that to look forward to in 2026.

 

I think Swaneset during their prime was a Morgan-esque facility but now it will take a lot of money to get back into shape.

 

The other course with potential is Meadow Garden.  I have always liked the golf course and the club house has good bones.

 

I don't know why the Korean group that bought the old Pagoda Ridge decided to buy that course way out of Vancouver.  I am not sure that will succeed as a private club catering mainly to Asians.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Golfnuck

[myspinonit]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:41 AM, knock it close said:

I think that's inevitable and there would be some regression even without the economic pain that might be coming. Think about how many people took up the game during covid or even got back into it because there wasn't a whole lot else to do and their schedules likely allowed for more time, I think we'd see that bubble burst a little no matter what. 

Concur. I sure stopped for a while years ago when even  one weekend round a week was pushing the envelope  budget-wise even on a  muni.  Back issues were also a big part of it though.

 

Then again,  skiers are forking out such bucks for  a day on the slopes (how the heck can a family afford a day at Whistler), and concert tickets etc. I guess bucks maybe will still flow onto credit cards (and cc debt).  Read today that though restaurant business is up 10% costs are higher than that and many across Canada are on the verge of bankruptcy.

[2bGood]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:41 AM, knock it close said:

I think that's inevitable and there would be some regression even without the economic pain that might be coming. Think about how many people took up the game during covid or even got back into it because there wasn't a whole lot else to do and their schedules likely allowed for more time, I think we'd see that bubble burst a little no matter what. 

I just can't see a "burst". Golf trends don't work like that as people who take up the came do it very long term. It basically trails off as the long term golfers trail off and are not replaced. 

 

Here are some stats from the US. It looks pretty dramatic as the x access does not start at 0, but it shows a loss of 600,000 golfers over ten years. Basically average 2% decline per year. So certainly a big decline, but it was a pretty steady drop.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by 2bGood

[Instron4204]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

I just can't see a "burst". Golf trends don't work like that as people who take up the came do it very long term. It basically trails off as the long term golfers trail off and are not replaced. 

 

Here are some stats from the US. It looks pretty dramatic as the x access does not start at 0, but it shows a loss of 600,000 golfers over ten years. Basically average 2% decline per year. So certainly a big decline, but it was a pretty steady drop.

 

You would have to think the numbers for 2021 & 2022 would see a sharp spike up with 2023 contained growth.

[IcemanYVR]

21 minutes ago, Instron4204 said:

You would have to think the numbers for 2021 & 2022 would see a sharp spike up with 2023 contained growth.

agreed. The increase in golfers wasn’t due to older players returning but rather  a boost of new younger players taking up the game. The usual trend may continue after that, but for now any upswing is good. 

[mukster]

While you guys were solving the economic issues of the golf world, I raced from the office and played 18 holes at Meadow Gardens. 
 

Played 12 holes in short sleeves, then it cooled down a bit and I had to add a layer. Not bad for early November. 
 

 

[myspinonit]

Back to armchair economics and disposable income for a second... article in the Globe today that single folks are struggling to get by on 100K a year, rent taking half the take home, not saving much etc etc.

 

I remember back in the days before the inflation boom (we're talking 1970's you young un's, lol) that young folks like myself were looking to $15000 as being good salary goal, then it jumped it seemed like overnight to 20k, then 25K, then boom!.

 

A girlfriend of mine from Quebec in the early 80's said when she moved to Vancouver and went to a party the first question when you met someone was "where do you live and how much rent do you pay".

What goes around etc. ....

 

Edit: I had another girlfriend in the early 1970's who lived  in a typical 3 story wood frame apartment at 14th and Main with a room-mate. She said her landlord was offering tenants to buy their unit for it was either $20K or 25K. (I don't think "condo" was even a word I had heard by then.) I thought, "who in the heck would pay $25K for a one bedroom apartment?" 🥲

Edited November 4, 2023 by myspinonit

[2bGood]

20 hours ago, IcemanYVR said:

agreed. The increase in golfers wasn’t due to older players returning but rather  a boost of new younger players taking up the game. The usual trend may continue after that, but for now any upswing is good. 

Yes the upswing is still apparently there. Golf has a stickiness to it. The trend should keeping going up market for a while with continued interest in private clubs (private clubs see an echo boom from public golf)

2 hours ago, myspinonit said:

Back to armchair economics and disposable income for a second... article in the Globe today that single folks are struggling to get by on 100K a year, rent taking half the take home, not saving much etc etc.

 

I remember back in the days before the inflation boom (we're talking 1970's you young un's, lol) that young folks like myself were looking to $15000 as being good salary goal, then it jumped it seemed like overnight to 20k, then 25K, then boom!.

 

A girlfriend of mine from Quebec in the early 80's said when she moved to Vancouver and went to a party the first question when you met someone was "where do you live and how much rent do you pay".

What goes around etc. ....

 

Edit: I had another girlfriend in the early 1970's who lived  in a typical 3 story wood frame apartment at 14th and Main with a room-mate. She said her landlord was offering tenants to buy their unit for it was either $20K or 25K. (I don't think "condo" was even a word I had heard by then.) I thought, "who in the heck would pay $25K for a one bedroom apartment?" 🥲

Golf is a sport for the well to do. The divide is growing, but despite increased challenges for the average person, the 'haves' have more than ever. I am not going to make a comment about society, but for golf the health of the 'haves' drives the market. 

[Golfnuck]

33 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Yes the upswing is still apparently there. Golf has a stickiness to it. The trend should keeping going up market for a while with continued interest in private clubs (private clubs see an echo boom from public golf)

Golf is a sport for the well to do. The divide is growing, but despite increased challenges for the average person, the 'haves' have more than ever. I am not going to make a comment about society, but for golf the health of the 'haves' drives the market. 

 

The "haves" are getting richer and their numbers are growing here in the lower mainland.

 

There are no new public courses.  Luckly Vancouver Parks Board is not going touch their six courses for development in the next few years. years.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-park-board-golf-courses-1.7013539#:~:text=135-,The Vancouver Park Board voted Monday to approve a long,-park uses — including housing.

 

One significant private club will close in 2032.  There are no new private clubs to replace it (not including the soon to be converted Pagoda Ridge).

 

A lot of guys that I know in the construction industry (contractors, sub trades, developers) have made a pile of money in the last 15 years and are in their mid 50s and have started to slow down with lots of time to golf.

 

IMHO golf both private and public, is going to stay strong in the coming years.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Golfnuck

[The Beav]

Played Fraserview yesterday with the kiddo and enjoyed their cheap rates ($80 for me and my son on a saturday morning) and great course.  Ground was soggy and trees were down, but we had a great time.  Man I love that track.

[Phireside]

Beauty day for golf at MC. Too bad my game was ugly as sin. The scorecard got tossed in the trash somewhere on the front 9. Blessed to be able to play in mid Nov. $68 all in for players club!

[Shushwap]

24 pricing Is starting to emerge and all I can say is wow !!!

Okanagan club is 6000 another 950 if u want to cart.. don't forget to add tax to that 

Tower ranch comes in at  $5039 that's including tax

Tower is 179 rack rate 

Harvest is not taking new members this year 

Kelowna springs is not taking membership either 

Can't find any info on sunset ranch.. I know they were one of the cheapest and they had a large membership base 

Susnet is 125 walking rate 

Susnet ranch owner purchased tower ranch last year 

Well see if they do any sorta of deal between the two 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Shushwap

[Phireside]

1 hour ago, Shushwap said:

24 pricing Is starting to emerge and all I can say is wow !!!

Okanagan club is 6000 another 950 if u want to cart.. don't forget to add tax to that 

Tower ranch comes in at  $5039 that's including tax

Tower is 179 rack rate 

Harvest is not taking new members this year 

Kelowna springs is not taking membership either 

Can't find any info on sunset ranch.. I know they were one of the cheapest and they had a large membership base 

Susnet is 125 walking rate 

Susnet ranch owner purchased tower ranch last year 

Well see if they do any sorta of deal between the two 

Golf is expensive. Always has been. Reduce the amount you play or pony up, if you don't someone else will.

 

 

[myspinonit]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:48 PM, Phireside said:

Golf is expensive. Always has been. Reduce the amount you play or pony up, if you don't someone else will.

 

 

Still,  those courses are seemingly expecting  that the golden goose of demand will live forever.  And that recession isn't coming, or already here.  But I'm not going to spend $100+ for a weekly round at Morgan Creek either.  I'd rather play two or three muni weekday rounds.

 

I don't know how much tee time availability there would be in those memberships.  Even if I

wanted to / was able to shell out that much dough for a short season, I'd probably want to get at least a couple of rounds (minimum) a week in to make it moderately justifiable. Plus some extra booking privileges with membership. But I wouldn't want to play the same course all the time either so that adds another cost factor. 

 

I sure as heck haven't been looking to spend golf tourist dollars in Kelowna for years. Osoyoos/Oliver yes, but that too has been minimal the last few years with the fire situation. That said, I'll be paying some golf in Palm Springs area in December and that is costly other than a couple of deals. But that is just part of an away- from -winter trip, and there are many course options.

 

[unskinnybop99]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:49 PM, Shushwap said:

24 pricing Is starting to emerge and all I can say is wow !!!

Okanagan club is 6000 another 950 if u want to cart.. don't forget to add tax to that 

Tower ranch comes in at  $5039 that's including tax

Tower is 179 rack rate 

Harvest is not taking new members this year 

Kelowna springs is not taking membership either 

Can't find any info on sunset ranch.. I know they were one of the cheapest and they had a large membership base 

Susnet is 125 walking rate 

Susnet ranch owner purchased tower ranch last year 

Well see if they do any sorta of deal between the two 

 

I'm surprised people still reside in the Okanagan area. The wildfires are out of control. 

[The Beav]

Played Sandpiper on Monday and once again it's got to be my favorite "local-ish" course.  Kids play free there (with paying adult) and I can't stress enough how much I appreciate that.  Conditions were pretty darn good despite all the rain with only a few soggy sections.  

I'm going to try make it a more permanent part of the rota.  

 

[Phireside]

1 hour ago, The Beav said:

Played Sandpiper on Monday and once again it's got to be my favorite "local-ish" course.  Kids play free there (with paying adult) and I can't stress enough how much I appreciate that.  Conditions were pretty darn good despite all the rain with only a few soggy sections.  

I'm going to try make it a more permanent part of the rota.  

 

It is a great course but man is it a trek getting out there

[Shushwap]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:04 PM, unskinnybop99 said:

 

I'm surprised people still reside in the Okanagan area. The wildfires are out of control. 

With these price increases it may be time to look at moving somewhere else.... The dammmm tourists keep raising the price of everything here

[The Beav]

20 hours ago, Phireside said:

It is a great course but man is it a trek getting out there

Yeah, I'm already out in the burbs so Fraserview is 45 min from me and Sandpiper is 55 min.  Both are acceptable for golf lol. 

[myspinonit]

On 11/16/2023 at 1:22 PM, Shushwap said:

With these price increases it may be time to look at moving somewhere else.... The dammmm tourists keep raising the price of everything here

Back when Whistler course prices were higher than pretty much anywhere else I heard it said that American tourists would not think a course less than $100  a pop was worth it.  Both Whistler and Okanagan probably would be higher anyway from the shorter season. But that theory probably has some merit for golf  (not just American tourist dollars) in tourist destinations pretty much anywhere now.

 

I'm no economist, but I think introducing Vancouver  to the world for Expo 86 marked the real beginning of housing speculation and non-resident investment driving  prices through the roof starting in Vancouver.  (Or "through the sky", starting with the development of the former Expo lands.)

 

Then,  some folks saw a huge capital appreciation in their homes, sold and moved to the Okanagan with cash still in their pockets after buying a new home, perhaps bigger than the one they sold. (But many also found that the demand for good jobs meant that nest-egg was diminishing.) Still, the $ infusion probably increased  prices as it grew more and more into a wine and golf and family tourist destination.

Edited November 17, 2023 by myspinonit

[Phireside]

1 hour frost delay at MC today, otherwise a beauty of a day for golf. Gonna take a few weeks off and then play it by ear from here on out.

[myspinonit]

10 minutes ago, Phireside said:

1 hour frost delay at MC today, otherwise a beauty of a day for golf. Gonna take a few weeks off and then play it by ear from here on out.

Played Langara on Thursday.  They don’t do frost delays at the city courses, but as long as it is open do temps with large holes. Started with 18 temps but 4 or 5 were regular for our play by the time we finished. More would be open behind us.   Still was nice to get out but also taking a bit of a bit of a break for a couple of weeks anyway.  

Edited November 19, 2023 by myspinonit

[Phireside]

Anyone play today?

 

Went to the range, and felt regret for not planning ahead. Would have been a nice day for 18.

[myspinonit]

14 hours ago, Phireside said:

Anyone play today?

 

Went to the range, and felt regret for not planning ahead. Would have been a nice day for 18.

Played 18 at Eagle Falls in Indio (Palm Springs area) yesterday. 😋 

Back to reality and home the end of the week though.

[mukster]

I played 18 at Meadow Gardens on Sunday. It's all bonus golf right now. 

[Shushwap]

Checking in in everyone.. how goes winter golf this year?

[mukster]

I played New Years Day. Course is pretty wet now in spots, but it was still good to get out.

 

Spoke to a friend of mine who lives on Tower Ranch and he tells me Kelowna Springs is closing. @Shushwap any more on that?