Valspar Discussion Thread

[redfirebird08]

THe ball speed/distance argument doesn't work to say the fields are deeper. It also short changes the players of recent past. They had firepower, shotmaking and lots of skills too. Give them equipment of today and many would produce the same numbers.

 

Yes the international game has grown and produced more talent. That is legitimate.

 

2007 technology was not drastically different than 2017 technology. The Pro V1 and 460 cc revolution happened between 2000-2003 or so.

[hdr_ric]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

[redfirebird08]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

[AaronSmart]

Everyone has the same equipment, so it's not related to depth.

 

Some guys work harder or practice more, that plays into depth or talent.

[AaronSmart]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

 

But a better athlete in what way?

 

Are they better putters now?

 

They look better and can probably run better and plank but when everyone is similar in fitness, it's not a difference.

 

They all can get a personal trainer, eat low carbs and do the same strategy, so it's not a depth or talent difference.

[lowheel]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

 

Trackman fitting chhnged the game.It showed if you hit up you gained yardage.Golf teaching had to adjust as well. Shaft tech has improved dramatically over the last 12-15 years. Larger sweet spot equals more MOI, equals less offline hits equals you can swing harder with no negative consequence and here we are.

[AaronSmart]

I'm not trying to disagree with you over and over, I'm just seeing "depth or better talent" as a figure of winning more or playing better golf compared to the players a run or two bellow you.

 

And that comes with skill, because in golf, all the abilities to train, eat or have new equipment, is an even playing field.

 

 

If this was Formula 1 racing, then by all means, the guy with the best car, is probably going to win the championship, no matter who is driving the car. But in golf, it's skill, at the top of the level

[gretch]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

 

But a better athlete in what way?

 

Are they better putters now?

 

They look better and can probably run better and plank but when everyone is similar in fitness, it's not a difference.

 

They all can get a personal trainer, eat low carbs and do the same strategy, so it's not a depth or talent difference.

 

Question for you. Take the top 20, 50, 100, even 200 guys in the world right now, against the top 50 players in the world from at any time of your choosing before this. They all play 72 holes on the same course.

 

Which group makes the better showing? Therein lies the answer as far as if today is the strongest depth of field ever. If you honestly think it is up for debate, fair enough. I do not.

[AaronSmart]

I guess really, if Tiger and Mickelson all of a sudden start winning multiple tournaments, either the talent (they face) isn't that high or those two are even more in their own universe :)

[lowheel]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

 

Heres one of the longer "athletes" of today... you think hes any longer than andy bean or dan pohl was?

 

[media=]

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[redfirebird08]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

 

Heres one of the longer "athletes" of today... you think hes any longer than andy bean or dan pohl was?

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

That's the point about depth. They aren't necessarily better at the very top, there are just MORE of them. It's not going to trend backwards where we start seeing slower swing speeds on Tour with every new decade. It has never been that way and never will be.

[AaronSmart]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

 

But a better athlete in what way?

 

Are they better putters now?

 

They look better and can probably run better and plank but when everyone is similar in fitness, it's not a difference.

 

They all can get a personal trainer, eat low carbs and do the same strategy, so it's not a depth or talent difference.

 

Question for you. Take the top 50 guys in the world right now, against the top 50 players in the world from at any time of your choosing before this. They all play 72 holes on the same course.

 

Which group makes the better showing? Therein lies the answer as far as if today is the strongest depth of field ever. If you honestly think it is up for debate, fair enough. I do not.

 

It is up for debate because you have to assume its played on a fully equal playing field.

 

You yourself want to believe that the 50 guys from today are soo much stronger, better clubs, and they will just destroy the old farts with their wooden clubs and funny hats.

 

But if it was calculated out and somehow figured out, I don't think the answer is as easy as saying this generation is more talented.

 

 

Like I said, if we took the top 50 players from this generation and added up how many players have won 4 or more tournaments, then we took 50 players from another generation, and see who won 4 or more tournaments, that would gives us somewhat of an answer.

 

Maybe one generation had a handful of players that won many more times, taking away wins from other players of their time, because they were that much more talented, which then gives you a deeper "top core"

 

 

 

Of course the best 400 golfers in the world today, are better then the top 400 from 1960, because golf didn't have a web.com, but that doesn't mean there wasn't just as skilled amateurs and able players back then

[AaronSmart]

Maybe this is the most talented group of golfers we have seen, maybe it isn't

 

But seeing how crappy some of them play, and how fast some of them fall, it's not exactly all about driver distance and swing speed.

[redfirebird08]

Maybe this is the most talented group of golfers we have seen, maybe it isn't

 

But seeing how crappy some of them play, and how fast some of them fall, it's not exactly all about driver distance and swing speed.

 

Of course it's not just about that or John Daly would have done a hell of a lot more in his career. I see plenty of impressive stuff going on with the younger guys though. Justin Thomas' iron game was incredible on the weekend at Honda and Mexico City. Those wedges on the 18th hole both weeks...ridiculous. I think that question comparing him and Spieth is now a valid one. Thomas has developed a great all-around game and he's not just a bomber anymore.

[gretch]

It is up for debate because you have to assume its played on a fully equal playing field.

 

You yourself want to believe that the 50 guys from today are soo much stronger, better clubs, and they will just destroy the old farts with their wooden clubs and funny hats.

 

But if it was calculated out and somehow figured out, I don't think the answer is as easy as saying this generation is more talented.

s

 

 

 

Ah, we are looking at this differently. No doubt there were studs in the past, and those same guys would still be studs today under equipment and conditions today. There just weren't hundreds of guys almost there who could get it together every now and then, which is how I define the depth of field as a whole.

 

cheers

[lowheel]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

 

But a better athlete in what way?

 

Are they better putters now?

 

They look better and can probably run better and plank but when everyone is similar in fitness, it's not a difference.

 

They all can get a personal trainer, eat low carbs and do the same strategy, so it's not a depth or talent difference.

 

Question for you. Take the top 20, 50, 100, even 200 guys in the world right now, against the top 50 players in the world from at any time of your choosing before this. They all play 72 holes on the same course.

 

Which group makes the better showing? Therein lies the answer as far as if today is the strongest depth of field ever. If you honestly think it is up for debate, fair enough. I do not.

 

What equipment are they using? thats why this comparison is bunk

[AaronSmart]

It is up for debate because you have to assume its played on a fully equal playing field.

 

You yourself want to believe that the 50 guys from today are soo much stronger, better clubs, and they will just destroy the old farts with their wooden clubs and funny hats.

 

But if it was calculated out and somehow figured out, I don't think the answer is as easy as saying this generation is more talented.

s

 

 

 

Ah, we are looking at this differently. No doubt there were studs in the past, and those same guys would still be studs today under equipment and conditions today. There just weren't hundreds of guys almost there who could get it together every now and then, which is how I define the depth of field as a whole.

 

cheers

 

Which is completely apples to oranges.

 

50 years ago, the "almost make it guys" that we see today on the web.com or lower levels would be out getting a job, because that wouldn't of covered the ability to live, so they wouldn't of spent 60 hours a week playing golf.

 

Nice try though

 

cheers

[lowheel]

Somebody is running to get above 75 posts...

[AaronSmart]

I never brought up players from the past to players of today.

 

I clearly stated, if we took the top level players, who had multiple wins, compared to players of today with multiple wins. I think that is a fair way to get a guide or idea on the "top talented players"

 

I didn't try and compare the top 200 to the top 200, but rather, how good the best players were, to themselves.

 

 

If in 30 years a golfer wins 15 tournaments in a season, and no one else wins more than two, that's probably a very weak talent pool, with a great player in there.

If in 30 years a four 3 golfers win 5 tournaments in a season, and three win 3 tournaments, that's probably a very very strong talent pool of great players.

 

That's what I was interested in, not if the best 500 from today could own a farm, run a gas station and golf in the US Open in 1965

 

Somebody is running to get above 75 posts...

 

Who me?

[hdr_ric]

Just looked up ball speed numbers because I was curious. In 2007, only 4 guys were above 180 mph ball speed: Bubba, JB Holmes, Tiger, and Daly. In 2017, there were 14 guys above 180 mph ball speed. That's a 250% increase in 10 years. It's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper with more and more physically gifted guys coming into the game. There is a crazy amount of money on the line and better coaching/training than ever before. Massive new pool of talent to draw from in countries like China/India as well.

 

Pssst. It is the equipment....

 

I don't buy it. Pro V1 and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were available well before 2007. 2000 is when the Pro V1 came out and 460 cc maxed out COR drivers were on the market by 2003. Hank Kuehne's driving distance in 2003 was 321, longer than Rory and Dustin Johnson in 2017.

 

There are better athletes in the game now...PERIOD. It would be one thing to make the technology argument in a comparison of say 1997 with 2017. But that falls apart when you look at the insane technology that was already very much available in 2007.

 

Ever heard of trackman...?

[nichho]

How did I get in the equipment section. Where do I find the Valspar thread?

[Wdwfreak]

So equipment vs. Trackman/fitness/whatever else has invaded all threads I see.

 

I for one am really excited to see how Tiger plays on the weekend, and Im truly confident in saying without knocking on wood that Tiger is back. That drive and burning desire to be the best hasn't ever left, and now he's healthy enough to just his a** out there all he wants, grinding, it's fun to see, and fun to see things like Tiger crash PGA Tour Live this morning and turn my Twitter into a madhouse.

 

Also glad to see Jimmy Walker back up there, tha Lyme Disease diagnosis hot him hard and sounds like it's finally dissipating and he's back to better golf.

[hondaloyal]

How did I get in the equipment section. Where do I find the Valspar thread?

 

:ontopic:

[Titleist 670]

Nice to see Tiger in the mix again.

 

To those saying anyone who plays with him this weekend will wilt, pump the brakes a little. He got beat by Sam Burns at the Honda on the weekend for crying out loud.

[elwhippy]

What a great venue. Offline equals recovery, not just blasting it through a 10yard gap in the trees.

[jerebear21]

You require to use every club. Even the short par4 requires longer irons into the approach instead of a wedge.

[MountainGoat]

Nice to see Tiger in the mix again.

 

To those saying anyone who plays with him this weekend will wilt, pump the brakes a little. He got beat by Sam Burns at the Honda on the weekend for crying out loud.

 

Yes, today (Saturday) is a critical day. Up to now, we've seen that Tiger can post a series of solid scores. What we haven't seen is an ability to run up the leaderboard on 'moving day'. He has tended to sputter when he pushes the pedal down. Let's see if he can continue to post a good number when he tries to power to the head of the field.

[jerebear21]

He’s going to bomb the course with early birdies while everyone else will 3 putt every hole.

[Lefty2021]

If Tiger wins this week it is an incredible story, if Tiger wins a major again it’s the greatest sports comeback/story of all time

 

5 months ago this guy was dead to competitive golf

[Valtiel]

If Tiger wins this week it is an incredible story, if Tiger wins a major again it's the greatest sports comeback/story of all time

 

5 months ago this guy was dead to competitive golf

 

5 months ago this guy had been dead to competitive golf for 3+ years! If his health holds up and he continues improving the way he has been, he'll end up hoisting a trophy again and it will have been a comeback that only Tiger Woods could pull off.

 

He still has a long way to go and more odds to beat before he recaptures any amount of dominance, but the fact he is back on the first page of leaderboard at this stage shows how good he is.